Hittings and beating in the madrasas

[Snowflake]

^ With due respect, the reply is on matters of discipline in general. Whereas we are talking about physical abuse where children are caused a lot of pain.

 

[Rasema]

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

Next time, a look by his teacher will be sufficient. JK
:wa:

 

[Woodrow]

Disciplining a child islamically is not wrong, but this matter is not exactly left for moods and people's personal frustrations either, it is a systematic approach, and by experience and research it has been shown that it works.

In Islam, smacking or lightly hitting a child while disciplining and teaching is not only allowed, but encouraged.

يؤدّب الصّبيّ بالأمر بأداء الفرائض والنّهي عن المنكرات بالقول ، ثمّ الوعيد ، ثمّ التّعنيف ، ثمّ الضّرب ، إن لم تجد الطّرق المذكورة قبله ، ولا يضرب الصّبيّ لترك الصّلاة إلاّ إذا بلغ عشر سنين.
لحديث: « مروا أولادكم بالصّلاة وهم أبناء سبع سنين ، واضربوهم عليها وهم أبناء عشر سنين ، وفرّقوا بينهم في المضاجع » .
ولا يجاوز ثلاثاً عند الحنفيّة والمالكيّة والحنابلة.
وهي أيضاً على التّرتيب ، فلا يرقى إلى مرتبة إذا كان ما قبلها يفي بالغرض وهو الإصلاح.
​

"A child is disciplined to enforce carrying out obligations and avoiding what is forbidden: Starting with telling them, then warning them, then scolding, then hitting if the earlier doesn't work. A child is not hit for leaving prayer until he reaches the age of 10, for the prophet's hadith -pbuh- : "teach them prayer when they reach 7, hit them on neglecting it when they reach 10, and divide between them (males and females) in bed." Hitting the child should not be more than three times (per session or day) under general consensus of Maliki, Hanafee, and Hanbali jurisprudence. Each step of discipline needs to be carried out by order and not taken if the step before achieves the required result which is reform."

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

There is an Arabic poetry line that reads:

لا تندمنَّ على الصبيان إن ضُربوا**** فالضرب يفنى ويبقى العلم والأدبُ

Don't regret on young boys if they are smacked****for the slaps dissipate while knowledge and discipline remain (for a lifetime)



And God knows best

Physical Reinforcement is an extremely effective teaching tool if done properly, with love and by knowledgeable caring teachers.

But sadly it often becomes the tool of choice by ignorant, sadistic teachers who misuse it as an outlet for their own frustration at being unable to teach.

To use corporal discipline by an ignorant person is tantamount to brutality and does not teach anything except hate.

Paradoxically an ideal teacher who sincerely knows how to instill the love of learning and is knowledgeable in the proper usage of physical discipline will seldom, if ever, have the need to utilize physical discipline. The students will become avid enthusiastic learners and develop a thirst for knowledge.

On the other hand the teachers who tend to use physical discipline the most are often those least capable of teaching.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Perfect answer! JazakAllah Khair

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Good reply brother Sampharo. It satisfies everyone.
:wa:

That's the general idea of discipline. We are discussing something contrary to these actions, that should be taken...

 

[~Raindrop~]

I had a female teacher when i was a child i'll tell you straight they are more brutal than the ustaji's.....assorted pinches....sharp end of rulers on knuckles....360 degree ear twisting....starvation through no lunch breaks.......We could challenge ustaji but you couldnt do it with the female teacher

lol i couldnt agree more.

our teacher had a wooden spoon on the radiator...lol not that she ever used it, but it was enough to keep us going lol. as far as i remember, she only ever hit her own kids...and she wasnt about to break their bones.

that said, i wouldnt dream of hitting my students!

cant ever mess with females lol

 

[Rasema]

That's the general idea of discipline. We are discussing something contrary to these actions, that should be taken...

:wa:


You mean that we know how to discipline children better than the Ulma:

The children, any of them, get slapped, hit with a stick, if they talk to others, give their reciting or some arabic wrong to the teacher..
There's also a lot of shouting and verbal attacks

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont think you understood my post.

What bro Sampharo said is what people need to follow. What I said was, some act contrary to it.

 

[cat eyes]

Disciplining a child islamically is not wrong, but this matter is not exactly left for moods and people's personal frustrations either, it is a systematic approach, and by experience and research it has been shown that it works.

In Islam, smacking or lightly hitting a child while disciplining and teaching is not only allowed, but encouraged.

يؤدّب الصّبيّ بالأمر بأداء الفرائض والنّهي عن المنكرات بالقول ، ثمّ الوعيد ، ثمّ التّعنيف ، ثمّ الضّرب ، إن لم تجد الطّرق المذكورة قبله ، ولا يضرب الصّبيّ لترك الصّلاة إلاّ إذا بلغ عشر سنين.
لحديث: « مروا أولادكم بالصّلاة وهم أبناء سبع سنين ، واضربوهم عليها وهم أبناء عشر سنين ، وفرّقوا بينهم في المضاجع » .
ولا يجاوز ثلاثاً عند الحنفيّة والمالكيّة والحنابلة.
وهي أيضاً على التّرتيب ، فلا يرقى إلى مرتبة إذا كان ما قبلها يفي بالغرض وهو الإصلاح.
​

"A child is disciplined to enforce carrying out obligations and avoiding what is forbidden: Starting with telling them, then warning them, then scolding, then hitting if the earlier doesn't work. A child is not hit for leaving prayer until he reaches the age of 10, for the prophet's hadith -pbuh- : "teach them prayer when they reach 7, hit them on neglecting it when they reach 10, and divide between them (males and females) in bed." Hitting the child should not be more than three times (per session or day) under general consensus of Maliki, Hanafee, and Hanbali jurisprudence. Each step of discipline needs to be carried out by order and not taken if the step before achieves the required result which is reform."

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

There is an Arabic poetry line that reads:

لا تندمنَّ على الصبيان إن ضُربوا**** فالضرب يفنى ويبقى العلم والأدبُ

Don't regret on young boys if they are smacked****for the slaps dissipate while knowledge and discipline remain (for a lifetime)



And God knows best

yeah this is what i strongly believe or trying to put across but you said it best like i feel that either people are to westernized or americanized or what ever or maybe they forget that as a islamic teacher and wanting the best for the child you have to encourage discipline and we seriously have to put our trust in these teachers to ensure a good future for our ummah. i tell you now id rather have somebody lightly beat knowledge into me then beat me for no reason and its only ignorance if you question the authority! i believe they know what there doing so leave it here

 

[Rasema]

yeah this is what i strongly believe or trying to put across but you said it best like i feel that either people are to westernized or americanized or what ever or maybe they forget that as a islamic teacher and wanting the best for the child you have to encourage discipline and we seriously have to put our trust in these teachers to ensure a good future for our ummah. i tell you now id rather have somebody lightly beat knowledge into me then beat me for no reason and its only ignorance if you question the authority! i believe they know what there doing so leave it here
__________________

Fnally, something we agree on.:statisfie

i believe they know what there doing so leave it here
Yes, our Ulma knows best after Allah and the Prophet,saws.
I love you.

 

[Rabi'ya]

the issue i dont feel is abotu hitting. its about the force used. and the reasons for it.

I have spoken to many people who have said they have been hit for reading one letter wrong, or turning up late(yet the parents bring them).

ok i mean if kids are being rude, or unruly or showing disrespect.

 

[Muezzin]

Hitting (your own) child because the child was being rude, disrespectful, and otherwise maliciously misbehaving? Personally, I'm okay with that in extreme cases.

Hitting (not this light slap business) a child because the child failed to recite a verse/failed a test or is otherwise finding an aspect of their education difficult? It solves nothing and can actually make matters worse.

As Mr Miyagi once said: 'No such thing as bad student. Only bad teacher.'

 

[Ansariyah]

I had a female teacher when i was a child i'll tell you straight they are more brutal than the ustaji's.....assorted pinches....sharp end of rulers on knuckles....360 degree ear twisting....starvation through no lunch breaks.......We could challenge ustaji but you couldnt do it with the female teacher

lol Seriously they twist ears..oh:

I bet u were a right cheeky/trouble'maker as a kid.

We use to have a male teacher for Quraan he use to come to our house n teach us among other neighbourhood kids, it was fun. Best Quraan teacher everr! we didnt go to madrasas, Good thing i havent after reading here wat goes on there.:exhausted

 

[Karl]

I think it's up to the father if they want their offspring physically punished at the Madrasas. The father if he does not want his progeny to be hit can tell the teacher "If you hit my Boy or Girl then I will beat you" another father may say the opposite "My offspring are awfully behaved obnoxious louts give them lot's of beatings to put them on the right path"
This socialist kind of ideology that some of you speak like "this should be that and this and that should be this blah hitting shoudn't be allowed.. levels of hitting blah blah"
Leave it all up to the father to decide...some are strict and some are soft. But it isn't "societys" business.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hitting (your own) child because the child was being rude, disrespectful, and otherwise maliciously misbehaving? Personally, I'm okay with that in extreme cases.

Hitting (not this light slap business) a child because the child failed to recite a verse/failed a test or is otherwise finding an aspect of their education difficult? It solves nothing and can actually make matters worse.

As Mr Miyagi once said: 'No such thing as bad student. Only bad teacher.'

Bingo :thumbs_up

 

[S_87]

old school mentality that beating works. i remember the cheeks being pulled/the big stick hitting and the pen between finger days oh and having to stand in the ruku position for a longggggg time. its heartbreaking to see kids getting beaten for having a stutter or not being able to learn quick enough though Alhumdulillah this is changing.

(on a side note, kids these days could do with some discipline)

 

[Snowflake]

To those advocating beatings to educate children,... please gimme a break. Beating is applied when a child refuses to learn, not for forgetting/stuttering or being a child, yaani naughty. From what you're saying a nervous child deserves to get beat. I once had to confront a molvi for pinching my friend's little 4 year old daughter. Would you allow a man to pinch your child and cause them pain and bruising? Don't be mistaken into thinking these teachers are Ulmas. Some are only qualified to teach the Quran and even more are unqualified yet doing it anyway - and doing it wrong.

This isn't about being westernised either. There are two issues here. Unnecessary beating/verbal abuse is one of them, which is not helping children to become good muslims. Isn't that the purpose of learning al Quran? The other is the possible threat of closure of mosques/madrasahs. One man has already been reported and is now paying the price.

Mosque teacher sentenced for hitting pupils

October 20, 2009

A PREACHER who slapped three children for giggling as they read the Koran in a mosque has been ordered to do unpaid community work.

Ghulam Sarwar, 44, was told by magistrates that he had abused his position of trust.

Sarwar, who has no previous convictions, was found guilty after a trial last month of three counts of common assault by beating.

Slapped

Manchester magistrates court heard he slapped two of the boys about the head with a flat hand and the other in the ear.

Tess Kenyon, prosecuting, said a leaf had blown on to a copy of the Koran all three were supposed to be reading. One boy tried to smell it but it stuck to his nose, causing them to laugh.

Sarwar, of Avondale Street, Cheetham Hill, was ordered to complete 250 hours of unpaid work and pay court costs of £930.

Henry Fenton chairman of the bench, said: "These were young victims, children. We see this as an abuse of a position of trust."

Ms Kenyon told the court that the mother of one of the boys complained to police in March after her son told her what happened.

Her husband had complained previously to another mosque about a similar allegation, the court heard.

Ms Kenyon said: "Both boys were video interviewed and both boys gave very similar accounts about what had occurred.

"They detailed that a leaf had blown onto a copy of the Koran. They started to laugh.

(Sarwar) came over to them and another child sat next to them. They were hit by a flat palm to the head. One was hit to the ear and the other two to the head."

The court heard Sarwar denied the allegations on arrest and told police he was aware of the law.

A victim impact statement from one mother was read out to the court.

Disgusted

In it she said: "I am disgusted.... the law in this country states that you cannot hit or injure a child.

"I was, and still am, frightened about getting the police involved but what sort of message would I be sending my children. I have to show them that they can trust their mother."

An appeal against Sarwar's convictions has been lodged.

Barry Cuttle, defending, said: "This is a man of absolutely excellent character.

"He reacted wrongly. He lost his temper, which he cannot do.

http://www.theasiannews.co.uk/news/s/1177988_mosque_teacher_sentenced_for_hitting_pupils

How does that look for the muslims? Why do we have to stick out like a sore thumb? We have the best religion. The best way of life. Why isn't this being reflected in the way we do things? Why must muslims bring humiliation to themselves? Islam allowed light beating for refusal to learn. It did not allow abuse!

I tried to stay quiet about this, but the ignorance and false views of some people about teachers has made me speak up.

One of the teachers at my son's madrasa, is from pakistan. He has been abusing children verbally by calling them names pakistanis use to insult people who are of dark a complexion, fat and even calls the children by their full real name and then at the end adds the names of indian actors or makes some up. He makes sarcastic remarks and copies the children sarcastically when they pronounce a word wrong. Is that befitting of a teacher teaching al Quran. Please don't make me laugh. Children have been struck in the stomach, head, chest and God they hate him.Three and a half hours of this every morning? May Allah bless them.

I feel sick to hearing all this and to ask my son how his day was. I am supposed to be telling my son not to mention the faults of others. Yet when my son is in the care of a brute, I am not going to sit there and close my eyes pretending it's all right while knowing my son could be hurt for something like forgetting his lesson. Have you even received a blow to the stomach? Probably not. Maybe that's why you think it's no big deal.


I'm collecting as much advice/material as possible and trying to contact other parents to approach the school and get the head to advise the teacher/issue a warning if he doesn't take heed, and if it continues to be expelled. I have worked hard to mentally prepare my son from when he attended a normal primary school to going to a madrasa. Alhamdulillah he is doing so well. I'm not going to let some ignorant and aggressive cold hearted teacher ruin his and other children's journey to learning al Quran & Islam. If he doesn't employ alternative methods of discipline and punishment for those who truly misbehave or are rude to him, then I'm afraid I have no choice but to push for his removal or inform the authorities of his misconduct.

:wa:

 

[cat eyes]

sister i agree with your post however children are good at telling a few false tails here and there like i worked with a woman who's 9 year old child accused her fiance of slapping him she then broke off the engagement but she found out later it was all a big fat lie also i am fully aware that there is bad eggs everywhere like you will find good teachers and then you will find Aggressive ones but i believe on that little important rule you need prove to convict somebody of child abuse it is a very big word imagine on judgement day a man was totally innocent after all??

after getting his status in the community ruined how could you take a childs word for it? you need evidence you need hard solid prove and they would more then likely have to have a past conviction from abusing another child as 90percent of abusers normally do as for the insulting that is wrong but then i would take my child out of that place or have a word with the person who's over the place to have a word with him or give him a warning.

 

[Far7an]

Children only do what they see from others. Their minds are like sponges, they'll absorb everything.

Parents want their kids to become huffadh and never commit any sin when they themselves can't attend the compulsory prayers in the masjid.

 

[cat eyes]

Children only do what they see from others. Their minds are like sponges, they'll absorb everything.

Parents want their kids to become huffadh and never commit any sin when they themselves can't attend the compulsory prayers in the masjid.

thats very true