Hittings and beating in the madrasas

[tango92]

i dont think its the physical pain of so much as the shame it causes the student. nearly always the student comes back with a stronger resolve to do better. - some of my freinds are hafidh

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^ but not many kids enjoy it they'd rather be with their friends or playing PS3 instead of memorising Qur'an. I for 1 when I was little used to hate going to the masjid every day after school, I jus wanted to get in and chill.

But I was forced to go and hated it, was just told to memorise a book that I didn't even understand, and didn't really hold any significant value in my young eyes.

The only thing I cared about was hanging out with friends and playing Play station.

You do get some kids who enjoy it though I think they've had an Islamic education right from the beginning as soon as they were born.

And they actually understand the importance of what their reading.

They're not just told to go and sit in a room and memorise a book that's in another language like I was.

but your right they shouldn't be beaten to tears especially not for making mistakes it would help if it was made clear to them the importance of what their doing and the great benefits behind it.

Not just force them to memorise a book they know nothing about or where it came from.

and the beatings just make the child begin to hate learning the Qur'an cos of the pressure they're put under. so defo not good.

Well thats why you should tell them about it too...not just stuff them there. You mentioned an important point there. If one has no introduction beforehand, how will they understand?

My bros and I, we used to go as kids to this lady who taught Quran. She'd be teaching her children at the same time. She was strict but never beat us. When we messed up, she'd help us, not beat us. I loved loved going. When I used to go home, I'd give myself some more. She used to give us a line at a time. I'd memorize that one and tell her to give me more.

So really there is a difference...it's like beating a dyslexic child because he or she has trouble reading. I dont know why people want ot justify this kind of act, it's not right man. There should always be a level discipline, jus as you would have in a normal classroom. If they misbehave, I can understand a punishment, but if a child is really trying and struggling, he or she messes up, you're gunna beat them? Seriously.

Not everyone is the same. I dont think its right that one learns the Quran only out of fear instead of enjoyment.

 

[abdullah_001]

Salam, peace be with you

I had something to ask because I have no clue on this. I live in London, and around where I live there are quite a few madrasas. Now I have seen how they are, and have kids ranging anywhere from 5-15. I have met the teachers there, and they seem nice.

But one thing I cannot understand. Why do they hit and beat the children? That's what happens in the two Madrasas I have seen, and I'm sure it occurs elsewhere. The children, any of them, get slapped, hit with a stick, if they talk to others, give their reciting or some arabic wrong to the teacher..
There's also a lot of shouting and verbal attacks

And I now many will be like it is nothing. But it is. They are the young ones, when they grow up what will they associate with Islam? The beating they recieved for not being perfect? I know someone very close who has strayed from the path, and it hurts as I know a major reason is because of how they saw Islam as a younger in the madrasas.

Do the teachers not understand this? Is their any reason, Islamically or other wise that anyone can explain to me?

The questioning of our teachers, in my opinion, comes from the lack of respect we have developed for our teachers in our societies.

I remember my molvisaab beating us when we were around 7 or 8. We used to live in Jeddah and at the time we all (3 brothers) thought he was very harsh. Our molvisaab had to go somewhere for a week and his replacement was even harsher lol, I remember I was learning Surah Humazah and for some reason I had a very hard time memorizing it but guess which Surah I like a lot now?

I think punishment instills discipline in children which is very helpful for when they grow up. Perhaps it our different cultural upbringing that distorts our views of manners and etiquette of others but we must realize that a parent is allowed to discipline their kids if necessary regarding prayers once the kids reaches the age of 7.

It is Allah who guides and it is Allah who misguides, I met our molvisaab 2 years after that. We had moved from Jeddah to Taa'if, and used to visit our cousins who lived in Jeddah, and from there to Makkah. Wallahi, I saw my molvisaab in the Masjid by our apartment (in Jeddah) praying and in a state of prostration. He then came to us and we spoke briefly but alhamdulillah he was the best teacher I ever had.

"Rights of your Ustaadh and Sheikh

As your Ustaadh and Sheikh are with regard to your internal (character) up bringing, like your father, therefore treat them, their family and relatives as you would treat your father, your immediate family and relatives. From this we understand the need for honouring and respecting our Elders, Sheikhs and teachers. From here a very important point emerges. The students or mureeds are in the category of children of the Sheikh or Ustaadh respectively, their rights with each other are similar to those of brothers and sisters. "

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=13819

Also, Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi wa sallam) said, "The best of you are the ones who learn the Qur'an and teach it to others." (Bukhari)

:wa:

 

[Snowflake]

^ I so agree with you sis Light of Heaven. I've always wondered why muallims don't realise that children listen and learn in a normal school without having to be beaten, and yet in the mosque they assume a child won't learn if he/she isn't beaten for being naughty, slow or forgetting their lesson. Well........ we can all moan about it til the cows come home or we can actually advise them and if they don't stop threaten to report them. Having said that I'm going to my son's madrasa tomorrow with a list of complaints - selling high energy drinks to pupils. SubhanAllah as if kids arent hyper enough. :heated:

 

[Snowflake]

The questioning of our teachers, in my opinion, comes from the lack of respect we have developed for our teachers in our societies.

Not necessarily. people abuse their position all the time. Teachers aren't infallible brother. I have instilled in my son respect for teachers, muslim and non muslim, from when he was in primary school. But some teachers today barely reflect the early teachers of knowledge in their piety and wisdom. It is in mosques and madrasa that children have been subjected to sexual molestation and physical abuse, not to mention death in some countries. In today's times we can't close our eyes just because someone is in a position of respect and authority. I do not want my son, to be struck in the chest or stomach by a man twice his size. May Allah protect him and all children from such teachers. Ameen.

The other aspect is that Islam teaches gentleness. Children do as children see. How can you teach children that Allah loves those who are merciful to others when the last thing they are showing to children is mercy? It's hypocrisy. Thirdly, in the West at least, we could be threatened with closure of mosques/madrasas if children continue to be abused there. These places know the Law, yet are ignoring it. That is foolish when you know the consequences. If we want to preserve our islamic heritage of teaching institutions in the West, then we'd better help change the way things are currently done.

As your Ustaadh and Sheikh are with regard to your internal (character) up bringing, like your father, therefore treat them, their family and relatives as you would treat your father, your immediate family and relatives.

Yes, that's what parents should teach their children. But when it is not done, it still doesn't make it right for the teacher to hit a child. I'm beginning to think mosques/madrasas need to employ child (educational) psychologists to help teachers understand how to help a child without resorting to anger and violence.

I saw my molvisaab in the Masjid by our apartment (in Jeddah) praying and in a state of prostration. He then came to us and we spoke briefly but alhamdulillah he was the best teacher I ever had.

That view is unique to you. It's not what happens generally. I asked my son how the children who are hit behave afterwards. Meaning did the beating have a good effect on them or not. He tells me that they say they hate that teacher etc etc. Will a child absorb any knowledge from a teacher he hates? I am surprised that such teachers who have the blessing of ilm seem to be ignorant when it comes to understanding the human psyche.


:wa:

 

[cat eyes]

haha oh yea i had forgot to mention the teachers use to make them run around like chickens for embarrassment if they made a mistake ;D and if they did not go to mosque the teacher would send out one of the boys to go to there home and get them loooooool oh man i never laughed so much in my life when my friend told me that about her husband i was in tears laughing

 

[Rabi'ya]

I am a firm believer that one should do things out of love not out of fear. that goes for faith, respecting ones parents, education everything. And it's how a child is brought up which means the difference between whether they want to and understand the reward of it and whether they think its a waste of time and have no respect.

My father never laid a finger on my brothers or I, yet we knew exactly when we crossed the line. Respect is earnt and not beaten into someone.

IF a parent hit their child with a stick what would be your reaction? Would you turn a blind eye?

Personally, I doubt it very much, yet because they are in a mosque everything gets shut away and people cover up.

Disgusting!

(after thought - my husand got beat in mosque and he has scars on his body from it so those memories will never fade. Everytime he sees them he remmbers the beatings and why...? because he didnt recite in the right way, or at the right speed, i mean come on!!!)

 

[cat eyes]

yeah but what is right and what is wrong surely we cannot say only Allah knows really at the end of the day only Allah will judge those teachers on the day of judgement. we know that if they can teach one boy all of the holy Qur'an and they teach it to others they will surely be rewarded.

 

[Maryan0]

I agree with those that say it instills discipline, getting beat particularly in somali madrassahs is considered perfectly normal, matter of fact my mother would encourage the teacher to beat us if we did not know are quran or came late. There are some teachers that are sadistic and take it too far but they are in the minority. none of the pakistani or arab teachers I have had have ever beaten us though I always assumed only somali teachers did.
Anyways the things i've learned in those madrassahs I have never forgotten.
salam

 

[Snowflake]

^ How do you put a limit on beatings? pakistani teachers have only gone and killed children in Pakistan. :-\

Sis Rabiya, that is truly awful for your husband. May Allah reward him for his suffering. Ameen.

 

[Maryan0]

^my teachers only hit us on the hands/palms with a belt or a stick once or twice depending on the situation, maybe beating was too strong a word. boys however got it worse.
There are some teachers that leave kids with bruises and scars broken limbs etc. that would be taking it too far.
salam

 

[Cabdullahi]

I had a female teacher when i was a child i'll tell you straight they are more brutal than the ustaji's.....assorted pinches....sharp end of rulers on knuckles....360 degree ear twisting....starvation through no lunch breaks.......We could challenge ustaji but you couldnt do it with the female teacher

 

[cat eyes]

yeah breaking of the bones is taking it to far i agree. though sometimes id feel like smacking a young boy myself when i see them dragging out of there mother screaming and kicking her all because he dose not want to enter into the mosque :raging: i mean seriously there has to be limits and kids are not easy to handle you know of course its easy for us to judge them because none of us are the teachers

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You can't put good students and bad students in the same category. Why do good students need to suffer? I'm gunna get beat if I'm struggling to learn? How is that a good thing? Use discipline when necessary, not when you feel like it. If I was a little kid going to a school where I got beat, I'd fear going there all the time. But because I had a decent teacher, I loved going cause she was kind and helpful, she didnt ever touch me. When I made a mistake, she corrected me. I dont really care what people think honestly. If you think beating a child for a mistake or coming late, then there's a PROBLEM. There could be reasons that are oblivious to you. If you beat them for stupid reasons then you need help. If that was my child, I'd be on their case. Punish them when needed, not when they are trying to learn but have trouble. This is utter nonsense. Don't expect respect if you cant do the same, that's my opinion anyway. What happened to compassion?

 

[Snowflake]

I dont really care what people think honestly. If you think beating a child for a mistake or coming late, then there's a PROBLEM. There could be reasons that are oblivious to you. If you beat them for stupid reasons then you need help.

Bang on sis! Kids can be experiencing so many problems at home. Many probably come from dysfunctional families, or mothers suffering from depression, or just being neglectful. Teachers should understand this and assess each child individually. But I feel mad at parents who never teach their kids any manners and when they start answering them back then they decide they should send them to madrasas so the teachers can fix them. Education begins at home. Don't they realise this.

 

[Sampharo]

Disciplining a child islamically is not wrong, but this matter is not exactly left for moods and people's personal frustrations either, it is a systematic approach, and by experience and research it has been shown that it works.

In Islam, smacking or lightly hitting a child while disciplining and teaching is not only allowed, but encouraged.

يؤدّب الصّبيّ بالأمر بأداء الفرائض والنّهي عن المنكرات بالقول ، ثمّ الوعيد ، ثمّ التّعنيف ، ثمّ الضّرب ، إن لم تجد الطّرق المذكورة قبله ، ولا يضرب الصّبيّ لترك الصّلاة إلاّ إذا بلغ عشر سنين.
لحديث: « مروا أولادكم بالصّلاة وهم أبناء سبع سنين ، واضربوهم عليها وهم أبناء عشر سنين ، وفرّقوا بينهم في المضاجع » .
ولا يجاوز ثلاثاً عند الحنفيّة والمالكيّة والحنابلة.
وهي أيضاً على التّرتيب ، فلا يرقى إلى مرتبة إذا كان ما قبلها يفي بالغرض وهو الإصلاح.
​

"A child is disciplined to enforce carrying out obligations and avoiding what is forbidden: Starting with telling them, then warning them, then scolding, then hitting if the earlier doesn't work. A child is not hit for leaving prayer until he reaches the age of 10, for the prophet's hadith -pbuh- : "teach them prayer when they reach 7, hit them on neglecting it when they reach 10, and divide between them (males and females) in bed." Hitting the child should not be more than three times (per session or day) under general consensus of Maliki, Hanafee, and Hanbali jurisprudence. Each step of discipline needs to be carried out by order and not taken if the step before achieves the required result which is reform."

The hitting should be non-injury causing nor bruising. As I remember personally a Quran-teacher friend was explaining that he slaps loud, with an aim to make a sudden loud noise that not only attracts attention, but also sets in his memory, and the pain should be an associated "sting", no more and no less.

There is an Arabic poetry line that reads:

لا تندمنَّ على الصبيان إن ضُربوا**** فالضرب يفنى ويبقى العلم والأدبُ

Don't regret on young boys if they are smacked****for the slaps dissipate while knowledge and discipline remain (for a lifetime)



And God knows best

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

But we aren't even talking about light hits here. People take it too far and that's the main issue here. At least, thats what I'm talking about. I havent denied discipline, we all need it. I'd rather get smacked by my mother than my teacher. For one, I donno who the heck you are (as a teacher) so your smacking will only make me mad. I got enough from my mom, don't need any from an outsider lol.

You might say, see beating worked. Well it did, cause she did it when it was necessary. What some teachers do is nonsense.

 

[Cabdullahi]

There's disciplinary beating which is moderate like a small tap on the hands of the pupil and there's showmanship or flexing the arms which is the full throttle and thats not acceptable

 

[Snowflake]

^exactly! A man can't even hit his wife in a way that leaves a mark. So there's no way it'd be allowed for a child.

 

[Rasema]

Good reply brother Sampharo. It satisfies everyone.
:wa: