Would like to understand you people..

[Raphael]

The problem is, Muslims have become obsessed with petty differences

A wild understatement :exhausted

 

[tommtomm]

Hi all,
I am a Muslim British, living in the UK and to be honest my Christine brother (for I consider everyone brothers and sisters) you have a very good point, like all situations the extremist have the loudest voice mainly due how boring us moderate Muslims would be, if we got interviewed. I mean come on even I find a half blind, hook handed Muslim fundamentalist funny and entertaining. Who wants to hear me talk and see let’s just all love each other.

NO ONE!

So although you might think these are huge issues. They really are not, because the truth is that less than 1% are extremists and do not want to join the rest of society.

What needs to happen is our country (UK) needs to grow a back bone and say I do not care. If you want to live in this country then play with our rules.
This is coming from a Muslim who lived all his life in the uk, segregation is the ultimate form of tribalism, and should not be condoned.

 

[Thomas]

Dear Thomas

I too am from the South Coast of U.K. My father is an 'indigenous' Englishman by which I assume you mean the 'white' descendants of the Celtic, Roman, Anglo-Saxons, Germanaic, Nordish people and so forth who migrated there from Europe across the centuries.

My mother is one of the immigrants who came from Pakistan in the 70s.

I find that your perception of Islam is highly blinkered. Muslims are not a uniform homogeneous mass.

I also feel you have been hoodwinked by the rhetoric of parties like UKIP and BNP, who masquerade under the guise of defending British/Christian values when you know as well as I do that any 'Christian' values England holds as a country today is merely paying lip service.

Muslims couldn't care less about a tree being called a 'Christmas Tree'. I was involved in many school nativity plays, yes, as a Muslim child! I played one of the three wise men, and even a sheep (ironic maybe)! As to why the tree was renamed 'Tree of Light', I think you are asking the wrong people. I think you have that wonderful post-enlightenment 'secularism' movement to thank for that one, which has been politically correcting and championing 'freedom from religion' for the last few decades.

Regarding this mass influx of crazy burka-wearing placard-waving Muslims who are swimming across the channel just to get a chance to live in Mighty Blighty, you do realise that this is, 1. A scaremongering vote-grabbing bogeyman stereotype the likes of which was used to caricature communists during the Cold War, and, 2. A problem which reflects more on the ridiculous open door policy the government adopted as a means to boost the economy, that it does on the immigrants themselves? If you open the door, how can you blame the man who walks in?

Now look Thomas, the majority of true practising Muslims (I won't call them "moderate", because that is like saying "watered down" and is therefore oxymoronic), who follow the Qur'an as it is meant to be followed, do not, I repeat NOT want to bomb you. For a Muslim to take one innocent life is like killing all of humanity. Also, they do not want shariah law in the U.K. They don't even want you to rename your Christmas Tree! They just want what you want: to practise their beliefs, to coexist alongside their fellow human being and People of the Book (Christians and Jews - people held in high regard in the Qu'ran) and to have a good future for themselves and their family. That's IT. No fine print, no BS'ing.

I would also like to talk to you Grace Seeker.



Firstly, what 'radar screen' are you talking about? The wonderfully free and fair agenda-less media coverage? Muslims do not need to apologise for the acts of someone who flagrantly contradicts their core beliefs and values. Islam is not the only religion of whose some alleged 'followers' have innocent blood on their hands. Yes, people got bent out of shape over the issue of the Danish cartoon - I wrote an entire thread dedicated to condemning these placards - but why are you judging Islam based on a select group of Muslims? Why don't you do your research into Islam with a rational mind, find out whether the 1 percent of verses that deal with fighting are referring specific contexts of self-defence against those who attack Muslims, or if they are referring to clandestine acts of mass violence against entire populations. I think you will find it is the former. Thomas: I would kindly advise you do the same.

Peace, may we come to a common understanding.

Hi again Omar and thanks for your reply and for telling me you are in Southampton.
Just replying to say that my posts seem to be mixed up with Grace Seekers posts so hope you can untangle her comments from mine at your end.....

Regards Thomas

 

[abdullah_001]

The mention of christianity abuse was meant to be a quite seperate issue and whilst moslems dont neccessarily use profain language, millions of others do and christians just have to put up with it. It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused. Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?

First of all, it is "Muslim", not "Moslem".

Second, it is funny to read "Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?"

Are the Christians who are purposefully drawing offensive cartoons to dismay Muslims praying for Muslims as well?

But Muslims are smarter than that, we don't say Christianity is at fault because a christian decides to do so.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Are the Christians who are purposefully drawing offensive cartoons to dismay Muslims praying for Muslims as well?

How do you know that the people drawing what you consider to be offensive cartoons are in fact Christians? I don't know the faith of the Danish cartoonist one way or the other. But it wouldn't surprise me if he was of no particular faith, as that seems to be the dominate category of people in Europe these days.

I do seem to recall the lady teacher who taught in the school was a Christian. She was there because she loved teaching and loved children, and was motivated by her faith to go and be of service, not as an evangelist,for she also loved Muslims without feeling a need to convert anyone. She simply did it because it needed to be done and she could do it. And the name was chosen for the Teddy bear was chosen not by her, but by the students themselves at the suggestion of a Muslim classmate. But, of course, once it made the news, the unorganized masses were somehow able to find their voice and unify themselves in order to make her the focal point of their anger. How strange the things that they can get organized for, and the things they can't.

While I know that sounds like an accusation (and I admit it is), it is one that I express because I just don't understand why one is so easy to have happen and the other is so hard. That just doesn't compute. Why is it that way?

 

[abdullah_001]

How do you know that the people drawing what you consider to be offensive cartoons are in fact Christians? I don't know the faith of the Danish cartoonist one way or the other. But it wouldn't surprise me if he was of no particular faith, as that seems to be the dominate category of people in Europe these days.

I do seem to recall the lady teacher who taught in the school was a Christian. She was there because she loved teaching and loved children, and was motivated by her faith to go and be of service, not as an evangelist,for she also loved Muslims without feeling a need to convert anyone. She simply did it because it needed to be done and she could do it. And the name was chosen for the Teddy bear was chosen not by her, but by the students themselves at the suggestion of a Muslim classmate. But, of course, once it made the news, the unorganized masses were somehow able to find their voice and unify themselves in order to make her the focal point of their anger. How strange the things that they can get organized for, and the things they can't.

While I know that sounds like an accusation (and I admit it is), it is one that I express because I just don't understand why one is so easy to have happen and the other is so hard. That just doesn't compute. Why is it that way?

I would say the inital reaction by the Muslims would give them a hint.

Edit: I don't know anything about the teddy bear incident to be honest, I was just speaking of the cartoons which were drawn purposefully as I said in my post.

 

[Grace Seeker]

First of all, it is "Muslim", not "Moslem".

Apparently both terms are used within the Ummah: American Moslem Foundation

 

[Grace Seeker]

I would say the inital reaction by the Muslims would give them a hint.

Give who a hint of what?


You said that the cartoons were drawn by Christians. How do you know that the cartoonists were in fact actually Christians?

 

[abdullah_001]

Apparently both terms are used within the Ummah: American Moslem Foundation

"American Moslem Foundation (AMF) is a charitable non-profit organization that has been established by members of Muslim community in the Northwest and registered with the State of Washington in December 1988 (see introduction). The mission of AMF is to try safeguard the religious heritage of Muslims in America by providing religious education at various age levels. In addition by efforts and action programs we hope to promote building of communities of Muslims in America (mission). AMF is supported financially by its members through membership dues and also by donations by good Muslims in United States. Membership is open to all Muslims irrespective of color, race national origin, ethnicity, and various Islamic "madzaheb". The AMF is run by its "Board of Directors" on behalf of its members."

Through out the entire website it is spelled "Muslim" except the name of the organization, which is really odd.

Edit:

You said that the cartoons were drawn by Christians. How do you know that the cartoonists were in fact actually Christians?

Kurt Westergaard has described himself as a “cultural Christian, a culture-liberal Atheist“. Danish Affairs

 

[Thomas]

First of all, it is "Muslim", not "Moslem".

Second, it is funny to read "Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?"

Are the Christians who are purposefully drawing offensive cartoons to dismay Muslims praying for Muslims as well?

But Muslims are smarter than that, we don't say Christianity is at fault because a christian decides to do so.

You are misunderstanding my post- It is concerning immigration TO THE UK.
90% of its residents are not practising christians but agnostics, sceptics or atheists and merely living in country that has long term christian traditions which they like because our traditions are not oppresive. The remainig 10% of real christians are unlikey to have drawn any 'offensive' cartoons but they DO have to hear and accept constant profanities and abuse from the 90% of unbelievers... And if you came to live here or already do live here you would need to cope with many more daily problems than worrying about whether somebody has drawn a cartoon that you dont like! I think the cartoons you mention may be the ones drawn by a Danish artist which country has the same tradions as the UK.

I am not accusing you of being faulty in any way. I just want you to learn to accept that anybody with any kind of faith has to suffer ridicule and take it on the chin. I am a practising christian and suffer ridicule from my friends who tell me I am believing in fairies and when they swear and use the name of Jesus and God in vain I just let it go over my head. YES. I expect some christians ARE praying for muslims - and even for their conversion to christianity! So you need to lay off the sarcasm as it could be you!

Finally, if you look at all my posts you wll see that I politely asked which is the polite form of address:. MOSLEM or MUSLIM? The response was that it depends on where you are in the world. The answer is there for you to read.... So I will be polite to you instead of sarcastic and call you a muslim.

If you are already in the UK, learn to assimilate!.
If you are not but thinking of coming here, you will need to accept criticism.
If you are not but unlikely to ever come to uk, you are free to stay as you are...

 

[Thomas]

I would say the inital reaction by the Muslims would give them a hint.

Edit: I don't know anything about the teddy bear incident to be honest, I was just speaking of the cartoons which were drawn purposefully as I said in my post.

Thank you Grace Seeker! Glad I am not the only person to feel the same as you about seeming trivia. Abdullah has heard about the cartoons but not about the teddy bear so he does need to be better informed before fiing off...

 

[abdullah_001]

You are misunderstanding my post- It is concerning immigration TO THE UK.
90% of its residents are not practising christians but agnostics, sceptics or atheists and merely living in country that has long term christian traditions which they like because our traditions are not oppresive. The remainig 10% of real christians are unlikey to have drawn any 'offensive' cartoons but they DO have to hear and accept constant profanities and abuse from the 90% of unbelievers... And if you came to live here or already do live here you would need to cope with many more daily problems than worrying about whether somebody has drawn a cartoon that you dont like! I think the cartoons you mention may be the ones drawn by a Danish artist which country has the same tradions as the UK.

I am not accusing you of being faulty in any way. I just want you to learn to accept that anybody with any kind of faith has to suffer ridicule and take it on the chin. I am a practising christian and suffer ridicule from my friends who tell me I am believing in fairies and when they swear and use the name of Jesus and God in vain I just let it go over my head. YES. I expect some christians ARE praying for muslims - and even for their conversion to christianity! So you need to lay off the sarcasm as it could be you!

Finally, if you look at all my posts you wll see that I politely asked which is the polite form of address:. MOSLEM or MUSLIM? The response was that it depends on where you are in the world. The answer is there for you to read.... So I will be polite to you instead of sarcastic and call you a muslim.

If you are already in the UK, learn to assimilate!.
If you are not but thinking of coming here, you will need to accept criticism.
If you are not but unlikely to ever come to uk, you are free to stay as you are...

Ah, then I misunderstood, many people use the word "moslem" as a derogatory term which is why I corrected it. And I also agree with your post regarding practising Christians. My apologies.

But to address your issue, first we should look at nationalities of various Muslims around the world. If there is any religion on Earth that can be truly called diverse, it is Islam. I am from India, which is much more than USA, in my opinion, a melting pot of cultures.

The fascinating thing about Islam is it's flexibility while at the same time maintaining the firmness and infallibility of its jurisprudence. Islam spread in India roughly around 800 or 900 years ago and today it is the second largest majority in India. And this can also be taken as a pattern in any other country you can think of. You'll find Muslims in almost any part of the world, if not every part of the world! There are Muslims in China, in India, in Russia, in USA, even in UK! They don't consider themselves to be foreigners but rather, they assimilate Islam in their culture!

The beauty of Islam is it does not ask you to give up your rights as a father, or a son, or a nephew in order to be a Muslim. In fact, you'll hear many reverts say they do not feel that reverting to Islam has altered their life drastically in any form.

As for your comment regarding criticism, people can criticize Islam all they want because we all know what happened when people criticized Islam after 9-11. They all ended up becoming Muslims. That's right! So please, go read the Qur'an. Think you've found something your stomach cannot digest? Then come argue with us, you will only end up loving Islam more and more, by Allah's mecry, If Allah wills. It is said statistically, in a few years Islam will be the majority in the world anyway, though only Allah (swt) knows best.

 

[GuestFellow]

As for your comment regarding criticism, people can criticize Islam all they want because we all know what happened when people criticized Islam after 9-11. They all ended up becoming Muslims. That's right! So please, go read the Qur'an. Think you've found something your stomach cannot digest? Then come argue with us, you will only end up loving Islam more and more, by Allah's mecry, If Allah wills. It is said statistically, in a few years Islam will be the majority int he world anyway.

Yes I realised those who really hate Islam tend to convert. I heard of some Muslims who used to hate Islam but converted by reading the Qur'an.

 

[mahi]

@Thomas,

Just read through the last few pages of the thread, and saw a couple of digs which I think may well be aimed at me, and if they are or are not, either way I am sorry.

The point I was trying to argue is that no land is anyone, no one has a greater right that anyone else. But I doubt that many see it that way as obviously a person who has lived their life in a place would obviously feel or have a greater belonging than those who move in yesterday. I guess what I was trying to argue with is my view using Islam, that land matters not to anything, we are all equal and should gladly welcome one another to each other's houses.

Again, for any offence I'm sorry. Just angers me than in a country I was born in and have lived my whole life and my grandfather lived in, being asian I am still seen classed as an immigrant and not belonging here by many, whilst I truly do feel at home in England.

 

[Thomas]

@Thomas,

Just read through the last few pages of the thread, and saw a couple of digs which I think may well be aimed at me, and if they are or are not, either way I am sorry.

The point I was trying to argue is that no land is anyone, no one has a greater right that anyone else. But I doubt that many see it that way as obviously a person who has lived their life in a place would obviously feel or have a greater belonging than those who move in yesterday. I guess what I was trying to argue with is my view using Islam, that land matters not to anything, we are all equal and should gladly welcome one another to each other's houses.

Again, for any offence I'm sorry. Just angers me than in a country I was born in and have lived my whole life and my grandfather lived in, being asian I am still seen classed as an immigrant and not belonging here by many, whilst I truly do feel at home in England.

Hi Mahi

Thanks fo your kind words.
Since you were born here and your forefathers you are unlikely to be among those who are worrying millions of us today as a result of the present government's lack of immigration policies.

I wish you well Thomas

 

[Insaanah]

@Thomas,

Just read through the last few pages of the thread, and saw a couple of digs which I think may well be aimed at me, and if they are or are not, either way I am sorry.

Assalaamu alaikum bro Mahi

Just to clarify, anything I said in my post was not aimed at you or any other single person. My point was that everyone was getting heated up, and when that happens, barriers come down, and that's not conducive to a good and rational discussion.

 

[Thomas]

Assalaamu alaikum bro Mahi

Just to clarify, anything I said in my post was not aimed at you or any other single person. My point was that everyone was getting heated up, and when that happens, barriers come down, and that's not conducive to a good and rational discussion.

Thank you Insaan
Like you, I had no intention of being personally offensive to individuals.
All I wanted to do was put over we English's case and why we (collective 'we', meaning several millions..) are a worried nation in such a small island.
As a result of this thread I DO now believe that what we read in the press about christmas trees being renamed, carol concerts being re-branded etc or cancelled is NOT as a result of pressure from muslims but derives from agnostic/atheistic people with their own personal agenda to marginalise christianity. OR, there could be a few hot-headed muslim extremists who, if they got the chance, would want a church closed if within 50 yards of a mosque and that sort of silly irrational stuff. We already have a so called 'immam?' with a hook replacing his hand (which I understand is as a result of him making something that exploded..!) in prison here in uk. Before he went to prison he was, apparantly holding what we would see as extreme political meetings in his mosque and firing up very young men to do extremist things. He is clearly a dangerous man and probably making himself as big a nuisance as he can whilst in prison... The problem is that millions of English people here see him as representing Islam, especially within memory distance of a terrorist explosion such as 7/7 in London. Its like a civil war situation where you cant distinguish friend from foe so all muslims are suspect and get the blame.

It has been nice corresponding with you Insaan. God Bless you. Thomas

 

[zakirs]

Thank you Insaan
Like you, I had no intention of being personally offensive to individuals.
All I wanted to do was put over we English's case and why we (collective 'we', meaning several millions..) are a worried nation in such a small island.
As a result of this thread I DO now believe that what we read in the press about christmas trees being renamed, carol concerts being re-branded etc or cancelled is NOT as a result of pressure from muslims but derives from agnostic/atheistic people with their own personal agenda to marginalise christianity. OR, there could be a few hot-headed muslim extremists who, if they got the chance, would want a church closed if within 50 yards of a mosque and that sort of silly irrational stuff. We already have a so called 'immam?' with a hook replacing his hand (which I understand is as a result of him making something that exploded..!) in prison here in uk. Before he went to prison he was, apparantly holding what we would see as extreme political meetings in his mosque and firing up very young men to do extremist things. He is clearly a dangerous man and probably making himself as big a nuisance as he can whilst in prison... The problem is that millions of English people here see him as representing Islam, especially within memory distance of a terrorist explosion such as 7/7 in London. Its like a civil war situation where you cant distinguish friend from foe so all muslims are suspect and get the blame.

It has been nice corresponding with you Insaan. God Bless you. Thomas

Nice to know you have go the point .

Gold bless you too

 

[Iris]

Hello Mr.Thomas! Welcome to this place, I'm new here myself...

I admit I have only skimmed through the thread so I'll try to explain how much ever I can relating to the points I did come across.

The idea of getting blessed with virgins in paradise is one of many ways by which God tells us we shall be rewarded for our good deeds in paradise. Women will get similar things for their pleasure there as well, as promised. The term used is 'hoor' and the gender is unspecified, but basically it's all about people getting to enjoy fully in paradise, how much ever they wish to. All the wishes will come true there.

You're not the first Christian I've come across who finds it rather weird that Islam talks about rewards in paradise in these terms. Especially since the teachings in Christianity and Judaism got altered, the descriptions of paradise those people have are different from ours...I have come across some Christians and Jews who now believe that paradise and hell will simply be a state of mind.

In order to understand the concept of paradise in Islam, it is important to understand how much emphasis Islam lays on justice...nothing should ever stand in the way of justice....all the mankinds' deeds will be judged on a Fair scale on the day of judgement. Now, does it make sense that someone who followed all of God's orders properly in this world but didn't exactly get all the happiness and things he deserved, to simply just die and never get compensated? If he was unable to marry, he remained a virgin and practised self-control, to get no Real reward for it in the end? If he did all his duties but didn't even have enough to eat while he was alive here, forget getting married and enjoying other pleasures, shouldn't he be compensated for his losses in a much more gratifying way? Was it his own choice, that the kid who was born in Africa in a poverty-stricken village suffered through his life, while other privileged children in other countries went to fancy schools and ate sushi? I could go on and on with bigger examples but I hope you get the point. Life is unfair to all of us in some way or another, it only makes sense that God balances out our privileges losses in some way at the end, right?

To question why does God think like man is rather strange. As Muslims we believe He knows us better than we know ourselves. The attributes we attribute to God are the best possible attributes so that includes, having infinite knowledge, being Just, basically an powerful Being who lives forever, knows and controls everything. How can He who created us, Not Know what we feel? The pains we go through? The longings we have in this life...(He's the one who engineered us biologically And emotionally). He watches all the deeds of everyone. He knows what humans take pleasure in and so He promises to reward us with all those things we aim for and want in order to be happy and pleased. And that's why paradise is all about pleasures. And oh yes, we believe it will be Very Real, not just some state of mind. If this life is so real, and it's pains, diseases and sufferings so real, then so should be the reward and punishment...it's all common sense.

Anyway, getting to another point of yours, the terrorists believing they will go to paradise. Now, like everyone said, Islam is perfect but the followers aren't. I'm sure you even see Muslim females around in Britain who go around dressed immodestly, without covering their heads and doing all things forbidden by Islam, what caused that to happen? Ignorance of Islam among its followers. Now these ladies might be all uncovered, but Most of them will have a basic idea of what Islam is all about and how everyone will go to either paradise or hell in the end.
I'm simply using this as an analogy to the terrorists' issue at hand. Those people know some things about Islam and don't know some other Very crucial things. Those people, with their limited knowledge of Islam read about the principle of martyrdom and see it as an opportunity to score paradise in an easy way. The concept of Jihad(an overly abused term nowadays) and martyrdom is deep and complex, especially in the age we're living in. Back in the days when Islam was introduced newly to Arabia, Jihad was simply a war fought back when people would attack Muslims just because of their religion...the anatogonists of Islam were trying to finish it off before it could spread and flourish. So the jihad was basically them(Muslims) trying to protect their faith, in the process when people died for the sake of their faith and did not give it up, they were termed martyrs and for those people, God has promised paradise...
Back then it was sort of a black and white picture...but in the world today, when any given country(whether Muslim or not) has it's own share of Non-muslim and Muslim population residing in it and the Muslim governments don't follow Shariah 100%...Jihad becomes a complicated issue. Even scholars of Islam are careful to label any and every activity as Jihad because unjust killing of anyone in Islam is absolutely forbidden...and carries a great punishment. Unfortunately some people are ignorant of the true teachings of Islam...Many of these suicide bombers and whatnot these days, grow up learning their Islam from their masjids etc, they don't even have access to authentic books to learn the truth for themselves! They have been brainwashed to say the least.

While Jihad is an important principle in Islam, it Isn't included in the five basic pillars(which are belief, 5 daily obligatory prayers, Zakaat(obligatory charity), Fasting the month of Ramadan and Hajj(pilgrimage to Makkah at least once in the lifetime)). Islam actually lays an equally big emphasis on what we call jihad-an-nafs..i.e. the struggle against your nafs(nafs=loosely translated as the various kinds of desires that a person has)

Building something useful for the community is sadaqah-jariya(a charity that continues to bring blessing). So if the taliban could channel their energy into building something useful for the community instead of weapons of mass destruction to get an easy entry to paradise, in my opinion, that would be the right route. Take the example of other Muslim countries, even people in Saudi Arabia don't go around planning militant strikes as their ambition in life. The middle eastern countries have more knowledge...they've also learnt to utilize their resources and built up their economy, education and health infrastructure. The leaders who build schools and hospitals for their people are not the same as those who misguide their people and tell them to go blow up civilians. Some people represent Islam right and some wrong...you have got to know Islam's teachings to find out which ones are right. Islam is a religion of peace, if you read about how Mohammad SAW went about his expeditions as a leader, you will definitely see how true that is.

Okay lastly, you raised another point about Muslims being too sensitive when people mock our religion. I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but honestly I don't see people of other religions (example, christianity) being that Connected to their religion. You see plenty of muslims still who pray and remember God five times a day, try matching that with going to church once a week, that too isn't considered 'obligatory' by most. The kind of connection a lot of Muslims in this world have with their religion is not usually seen with those of other religions(correct me if I'm wrong). And thus we hold our Prophet SAW in high esteem and regard(just like we do, with all other Prophets of God including Jesus A.S) We never mock any of them or reject them from being Prophets. We simply believe in that everything that was laid down by our Prophet SAW who was the last one on earth, to have completed the teachings of all religions so far sent by God, the final, true message which will remain un-altered till the end. We follow Quran and Sunnah as our true ways of life. The sunnah and hadith are basically, direct teachings of the Prophet SAW himself. Those are held in equal reverence by us. And one of those teachings is to love and respect the Prophet Mohammad SAW more than anyone else...we're supposed hold him dearer to us than our own self and our own parents. Less than God but more than every other human basically. And naturally, reading about him automatically makes a lot of the Muslims very emotionally connected to him, the kind of connection God wants from us...it's almost like a blessing from him that most Muslims feel this way about our Prophet Mohammad SAW.

Like many members said earlier, if someone were to mock your mother in public or make fun of her, it would raise very strong emotions in you...the feelings are even stronger when people try to attack our Prophet SAW. It's Not supposed to be something you should just ignore, in fact those who do that are considered at a weaker level of faith. But of course that doesn't mean going about having fist-fights with anyone who says such things out of ignorance(although it's more often 'arrogance'). But anyway we have examples of our Prophet SAW himself on how he dealt with the disbelievers when they mocked him and tortured him. He forgave them and prayed for them to be guided. And that's what us as Muslims are supposed to do, pray for the guidance of those who are misguided...Nevertheless it's Very offensive and hurtful when people say those kind of things and we Have to try our best to stop them in the best possible way.

 

[Insaanah]

Thank you Insaan
We already have a so called 'immam?' with a hook replacing his hand (which I understand is as a result of him making something that exploded..!) in prison here in uk. Before he went to prison he was, apparantly holding what we would see as extreme political meetings in his mosque and firing up very young men to do extremist things. He is clearly a dangerous man and probably making himself as big a nuisance as he can whilst in prison... The problem is that millions of English people here see him as representing Islam, especially within memory distance of a terrorist explosion such as 7/7 in London.

I admit we Muslims have done an appalling job of presenting our faith to the rest of society to the extent that some of us don't talk about it at all. That MUST and has to change.

Hi Thomas,

I'm not sure if the purpose that you came onto the forum for has been fulfilled. As it sounds like you are ending your posts. Either way, most of us acknowledge that immigration is a problem here. Even as a British Muslim who has lived here, integrated and paid into the system my whole life, even I can see that people are arriving by the planeloads and many concessions are being made for them from the word go. To us hard workers, that doesn't seem fair. I think people get the perception that they are all Muslims. Muslims who have been living here a while, (most are now the second generation) are normal people with all the normal concerns of the rest of British society.

If that was your last post, can I leave you with the following two facts?

The Qur'an has a whole chapter named "Mary". In Islam, Mary (Peace be upon her) is considered to be one of the most pious ladies to ever walk the face of this earth.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is mentioned by name in the Qur'an five times more than Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Can I also leave you with the following four separate extracts from the translation of the Holy Qur'an?

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and the descendents of Jacob, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and in what the other prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered." Baqarah Chapter 2: verse 136

Say: "O people of the Scripture, come to a common agreement between us and you: That we will worship none but Allah, and that we shall associate none with Him in His Divinity and that none of us shall take others as lords beside Allah. " And if they turn away, then say; "Bear witness that we are those who have submitted ourselves exclusively unto Him." Aal Imran Chapter3: verse 64

And when Allah will say, "O Jesus son of Mary, did you say to people: "Take me and my mother for Gods beside Allah?", and he will answer: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to say. Had I said so, You would surely have known it. You know all that is within my mind, whereas I do not know what is within Yours. You, indeed You, are the Knower of hidden things. I said to them nothing except what You commanded me, that is: "Worship Allah, my Lord and Your Lord". I watched over them as long as I remained among them, and when you did recall me, then You Yourself became the watcher over them. Indeed, You are witness over everything. If You chastise them, they are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are the all-Mighty, the All-Wise" Maaidah Chapter 5: verses 116-118

It does not befit the Majesty of God that He should take for Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He only says, "Be!" and it is. Indeed Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him alone. This is the Straight Way." Maryam (Mary) Chapter 19: verses 35-36

Thomas, please ask any other questions you want to on this forum, anytime you want. Some people here have posted thousands of posts (I'm not kidding) so no amount will be too much, and no one's going to say, "Oh no, it's Thomas again!"

May God guide us all. Amen.

Best Regards, and Peace.