Is there any Biblical evidence that describes Jesus as God?

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Grace Seeker:

I think that I understand the frustration that Mohammed felt when discussing this issue with Trinitarians. No evidence, regardless of how compelling, will ever be enough. The Qur’an notes an appropriate way forward - let God decide who is correct.

However, the problem is that Trinitarians have insisted that people must believe that Jesus is God in order to be accepted by God.

I'm going to stop you there. Why? Because that is patenly not true.

Not that you can't find any, maybe even many, who would do and say as you have described. But in the way you wrote it as an absolute statement, it isn't even close to true.

For instance, though I don't think that your position should be termed Christian any more than the Muslim view should be. I don't exlude either you or Muslims from being accepted by God. I know right now, today, meeting in a hotel in Turkey, is a group of people, most of them from within the Muslim community, who see themselves as followers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but not as part of the Christian Church any more than the Gentile followers of the Way became Jews in order to become followers of Jesus. As far as I am concerned, that makes them my brothers and sisters in Christ, even though they may never use the term Christian to describe themselves.

And while I continue to assert that Jesus is God and that he is shown to be such in scripture, I do not argue that God's love and acceptance of people is reserved only for those who accept that particular doctrine. So, if you're going to continue to make your above statement, please be sure to do so in less absolute language.


P.S. You should have started back in vs. 36. Then you would have noticed that Peter says that Jesus is both Lord and Christ (so the term "Lord" is obviously being used as a title and not a salutation) and then in vs. 39 calls the Lord "our God". But never mind, there is no evidence in scripture that Jesus is God, we just keep making that up out of thin air.

 

[Sojourn]

I think that I understand the frustration that Mohammed felt when discussing this issue with Trinitarians.

When did Muhammad discuss issues with mainstream Christians?

 

[Supreme]

Hi Everyone:

The promotion of Jesus as God has been an unnecessary barrier keeping Christians and Muslims apart. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. However, there are a group of Christians, called Trinitarians, who believe otherwise. Quite a few threads in this forum degenerate into arguments about the Trinity. This thread is for anyone, especially Trinitarians, to provide any Biblical evidence that shows that Jesus is God, so that we can discuss it honestly in order to learn the Truth.

Those Muslims who believe that Christians and Muslims are not brothers because they believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, are welcome to present their evidence here also.

Who will be first.

Regards,
Grenville

A non trinitarian Christian! A rare breed indeed! My friend, if you do not mind me asking, do you belong to any specific denomination?

 

[Walter]

Hi Grace Seeker:

Thank you for your clarification. You appear to have arrived at the conclusion that eternal life is not dependent on believers accepting that Jesus is God. We are in agreement on this.

I see that you are resorting to equating that Jesus is Lord to mean that Jesus is God. You must be aware that Jesus is referred to as Lord because God has given Him authority over things in heaven and earth. GS, it is useful to read the messages of the early church in Acts in order to understand how the Apostles viewed and proclaimed Jesus. Jesus was consistently described as God’s Servant, a Prophet, and a Man.

To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.” (Acts 3:26)

Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:29-31)​

This is consistent with Paul’s teachings.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5)​

Therefore, as I have repeatedly stated, Jesus may well be God - because none of us have all knowledge. However, there is insufficient evidence in the Bible, and too much conflicting evidence in the Bible for Christian religious tradition to establish a doctrine (mandatory belief) that He is.

Regards,
Grenville.

 

[Walter]

Hi Sojourn:

When did Muhammad discuss issues with mainstream Christians?

I have already referred you to documents which contain those details, and you have already stated that you have no intention of learning about it. If you ever change your mind, then you already know where to find the said details.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Hi Supreme:

A non trinitarian Christian! A rare breed indeed! My friend, if you do not mind me asking, do you belong to any specific denomination?

I have already provided details of my past and current Church membership and activities. If you read through this thread, I am sure you will come across it. This thread contains much of the evidence used to teach that Jesus is God. However, if you are aware of our Church history, there has been severe persecution of any who dared seek to verify the assumptions upon which such interpretations that ‘Jesus is God’ were based. As you read this thread, you may find that little, if any of this evidence withstands rigorous scrutiny.

You are welcome to present any evidence for honest scrutiny.

Just to be clear of my intentions, please note the following.

1. I believe the Bible, and uncompromisingly so – it is my objective standard of truth.

2. I believe that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an; therefore, I believe that there is credible evidence that Mohammed was God’s prophet.

3. I have found that there is insufficient evidence for Christian tradition to conclude that Jesus is God. This religious tradition conflicts with the teachings of both the Bible and the Qur’an. It is the principal barrier, erected by Christian tradition, that unnecessarily keeps Christians and Muslims apart.

4. I have found that there is insufficient evidence in the Qur’an for Islamic religious tradition to conclude that Jesus was not crucified. This religious tradition conflicts with the teachings of the rest of the Qur’an, Christian, Islamic, Roman, and Jewish historical accounts, and the Bible. It is the principal barrier erected by Islamic tradition that unnecessarily keeps Muslims and Christians apart.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

I suppose it really belongs in another thread, but I would be interested, Grenville, in hearing how you understand Christ to be a propitiation for the sins of the world if he is just a man and nothing more. I find the "mechanism" (for lack of a better word) of the atonement to be difficult enough to explain when understanding the hypostatic union of both God and man in the person of Jesus; I can't imagine it as anything less than impossible to articulate absent that belief as I understand your beliefs to be.

 

[Walter]

Hi GS:

I suppose it really belongs in another thread, but I would be interested, Grenville, in hearing how you understand Christ to be a propitiation for the sins of the world if he is just a man and nothing more. I find the "mechanism" (for lack of a better word) of the atonement to be difficult enough to explain when understanding the hypostatic union of both God and man in the person of Jesus; I can't imagine it as anything less than impossible to articulate absent that belief as I understand your beliefs to be.

Paul answers your question in his letter to the Hebrews.

But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (Hebrews: 9:11-15)​

Please note that Jesus, the Christ, came as a High Priest and offered His own blood to God, and became the mediator between God and Man. Please also be advised that I have never claimed that Jesus is "just a man and nothing more" as you have erroneously asserted.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[OurIslamic]

Yes, there is.

In Islam, we believe the Bible (God's word) has been changed. I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone, but am simply stating Islamic beliefs.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Please also be advised that I have never claimed that Jesus is "just a man and nothing more" as you have erroneously asserted.

Regards,
Grenville

I apologize for the error. Let me be clear on your position with regard to Jesus then:

1) Jesus is not God.
2) Jesus is not the God.
3) Jesus is not a god.
4) Jesus is not divine in any way or context.
5) Jesus is a man.
6) Jesus is more than just a man.
7) Jesus is God's son
8) Jesus is God's Word.


Please correct any of the above statements that, according to your understanding, are false so that they are stated correctly.

 

[Walter]

Hi GS:

As I have consistently stated, I believe that Jesus is exactly who the Bible explicitly describes Him to be. GS, when I make presentations, Christians in the audience are normally shocked to learn that the phrase “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit” is not contained in the Bible. Those promoting this teaching have certainly been effective. However, I believe that they have, and continue to mislead believers.

The following list describes how Jesus is referred to in the Gospels.
• God called Jesus: My Son, and My beloved Son.
• Jesus called Himself: Lord, Son of Man, Prophet, the Son, Christ, Teacher, Christ, Son of God, Lord of Sabbath, Good Shepherd, Only begotten Son, Messiah, True Bread from Heaven, Bread of God, Bread of Life, Living Bread, Light of the World, Door of the sheep, Resurrection and the Life, Way, Truth and Life, and the True Vine.
• Angels referred to Jesus as: Jesus, Immanuel, Jesus of Nazareth, Savior, Christ the Lord, Son of the Highest, and Son of God.
• John the Baptist referred to Jesus as: Lord, a Man, Son of God, Lamb of God, and Rabbi.
• Jesus’ disciples referred to Jesus as: Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham, Jesus who is called Christ, Christ, Son of God, Lord, the Lord’s Christ, the Word, Light, Only begotten of the Father, Teacher, Messiah, Son of Joseph, Rabbi, King of Israel, Master, and Christ of God.
• Others during Jesus lifetime referred to Jesus as: Lord, Christ, Son of God, Teacher, Jesus, Rabbi, King of the Jews, Prophet, Master, Son of David, King of Israel, King of the Jews.
• Demons referred to Jesus as: Son of God, Holy one of God, Son of the Most High God, Christ.

For the next 30 to 40 years after Jesus’ departure, Jesus is referred to in the following way.
• Peter referred to Jesus as: Lord, Jesus, a man attested by God, Christ, His Servant Jesus, The Holy One and Just, the Prince of Life, Prophet, Lord, Holy Servant, Prince and Saviour.
• Stephen referred to Jesus as: Just One, Son of man at right hand of God, and Lord Jesus.
• Paul referred to Jesus as: Christ, Saviour, this Man, Jesus, and Lord.
• Others referred to Jesus as: Jesus Christ Son of God, the Word of God, Lord, Just One, and Christ.
• Jesus referred to Himself as: Jesus of Nazareth.

In the evidence from the Bible, there are no explicit or indirect references to “Jesus our God”, or “our God Jesus”. There are several references to “Son of God” and “Lamb of God”, but not “God the Son” or “God the Lamb” or anything similar. However, there are numerous references to “God the Father”.

Therefore, the Bible explicitly teaches that God is the Father. But there is no explicit evidence that Jesus is God.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hi GS:

As I have consistently stated, I believe that Jesus is exactly who the Bible explicitly describes Him to be.

And do you only believe that which is explicity stated? Or do you also believe those things that can be inferred from scripture?

That God existed BEFORE the beginning of the world.
That the WORD existed BEFORE the beginning of the world.
That Jesus is the Word made flesh.
That all things were created by the Son and for the Son.
That the Son laid the foundations of the earth.
That God's angels worship the Son.
That the Son's throne is to last for ever and ever.
That Jesus had power to forgive sins.


None of these things are explicity stated in scripture, but they are all easily inferred from it. Are your beliefs limited to only that which is explicity stated?

The following list describes how Jesus is referred to in the Gospels.
• God called Jesus: My Son, and My beloved Son.
• Jesus called Himself: Lord, Son of Man, Prophet, the Son, Christ, Teacher, Christ, Son of God, Lord of Sabbath, Good Shepherd, Only begotten Son, Messiah, True Bread from Heaven, Bread of God, Bread of Life, Living Bread, Light of the World, Door of the sheep, Resurrection and the Life, Way, Truth and Life, and the True Vine.
• Angels referred to Jesus as: Jesus, Immanuel, Jesus of Nazareth, Savior, Christ the Lord, Son of the Highest, and Son of God.
• John the Baptist referred to Jesus as: Lord, a Man, Son of God, Lamb of God, and Rabbi.
• Jesus’ disciples referred to Jesus as: Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham, Jesus who is called Christ, Christ, Son of God, Lord, the Lord’s Christ, the Word, Light, Only begotten of the Father, Teacher, Messiah, Son of Joseph, Rabbi, King of Israel, Master, and Christ of God.
• Others during Jesus lifetime referred to Jesus as: Lord, Christ, Son of God, Teacher, Jesus, Rabbi, King of the Jews, Prophet, Master, Son of David, King of Israel, King of the Jews.
• Demons referred to Jesus as: Son of God, Holy one of God, Son of the Most High God, Christ.

For the next 30 to 40 years after Jesus’ departure, Jesus is referred to in the following way.
• Peter referred to Jesus as: Lord, Jesus, a man attested by God, Christ, His Servant Jesus, The Holy One and Just, the Prince of Life, Prophet, Lord, Holy Servant, Prince and Saviour.
• Stephen referred to Jesus as: Just One, Son of man at right hand of God, and Lord Jesus.
• Paul referred to Jesus as: Christ, Saviour, this Man, Jesus, and Lord.
• Others referred to Jesus as: Jesus Christ Son of God, the Word of God, Lord, Just One, and Christ.
• Jesus referred to Himself as: Jesus of Nazareth.

Thank-you for sharing with me all of this in one place. I may actually use it some day. But your list of the many different ways that Jesus is referenced in the Bible does NOT answer the question I actually asked. Unless you mean for me to infer from your statement "believe that Jesus is exactly who the Bible explicitly describes Him to be" that you don't believe anything about Jesus except for that which the Bible explicity describes Him to be".

 

[Walter]

Dear Grace Seeker:

And do you only believe that which is explicity stated? Or do you also believe those things that can be inferred from scripture?

...

Thank-you for sharing with me all of this in one place. I may actually use it some day. But your list of the many different ways that Jesus is referenced in the Bible does NOT answer the question I actually asked. Unless you mean for me to infer from your statement "believe that Jesus is exactly who the Bible explicitly describes Him to be" that you don't believe anything about Jesus except for that which the Bible explicity describes Him to be".

Please allow me to clarify a critical issue.

In my opinion, doctrines should be based on what is explicitly stated, and consistently supported by other scriptural passages. In that way, they are not vulnerable to diverse interpretations that can cause juveniles to stumble, and others to intentionally or inadvertently blaspheme.

While doctrines should be sure and true, and extremely easy to defend in a debate and define in a discussion, such is not always true for speculative opinions.

Speculative opinion is the realm where the “inferences” that you referred to should be discussed. While we should hold tightly to the safety of doctrine, we should not hold too tightly to speculative opinions, because they may be found to be false. Perhaps additional evidence may be found, or an alternate interpretation of existing evidence, or some evidence that discounts the underlying assumption upon which the present interpretation was based, or a host of other reasons.

So to answer your question. I believe what is explicitly stated in the Bible. I also believe a lot of speculative opinion; however, not to the same degree as what is explicitly stated.

Further, I believe that the concept of Jesus being God should never have been made a doctrine, for such a teaching fails the minimum standards for doctrines. It was a divisive distraction that was forcibly established, and has become an unnecessary barrier to our Muslim believers. I believe that it should have remained as speculative opinion, and allowed to be properly discussed to see whether it merited a place among the doctrines of the Church, rather than being forced upon us.

I trust that my position is clear to you.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

Dear Grace Seeker:



Please allow me to clarify a critical issue.

In my opinion, doctrines should be based on what is explicitly stated, and consistently supported by other scriptural passages.

Where can I find this view (Grenville's doctrine of Biblical interpretation) explicity stated? Is it consistently supported by other scriptural passages?

 

[Walter]

Where can I find this view (Grenville's doctrine of Biblical interpretation) explicity stated? Is it consistently supported by other scriptural passages?

Hi GS:

Since you asked, Paul set the standard for Church doctrine at the words of Jesus, and high standards of personal behaviour.

If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. (1 Timothy 6:3–5)​

The Qur’an set the standard as whatever God has revealed.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by what God hath revealed, they are those who rebel.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee., To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

And this : Judge thou between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that which God hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is God's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious. (5:47–49)​

The Qur’an advises the Jews, Christians, and Muslims to judge by what has been revealed to each of them by God, as opposed to the vain desires of men. These vain desires can be likened to religious traditions that are not supported by the evidence of what God has revealed. Jesus made a similar observation.

Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honour Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matthew 15:7–9)​

The idea that Jesus is God is a commandment of men which was forced upon believers.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm still waiting to see where it is explicity stated. You've only provided things from which you have inferred your doctrine. But your doctrine itself holds that we are not to do that, but rather that things must be explicity stated. Are you telling me that this doctrine requiring things to be explicity stated and not just inferred is itself an inferred doctrine?

 

[Walter]

I'm still waiting to see where it is explicity stated. You've only provided things from which you have inferred your doctrine. But your doctrine itself holds that we are not to do that, but rather that things must be explicity stated. Are you telling me that this doctrine requiring things to be explicity stated and not just inferred is itself an inferred doctrine?

Hi GS:

Where is this “your doctrine” coming from. Did you not read that I was expressing “my opinion” on how doctrines should be developed? Why not respond to the substance of my post 233 that rather than divert the discussion to another topic.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

It should be quite obvious that "my opinion" is quite different than yours. I hold that it is actually quite important to make inferences from scripture. Without these inferences we are left with confusing statements about a Jesus sitting on the right hand of a being that doesn't even have a body. Your "opinion" however is that things must be explicity stated to be so. I'm just wondering where you got that from? Is this something that you reasoned out? Because if so, I would like to do more than accept just what is explicitly stated, but that which can be reasoned from scripture as well. I would go so far as to suggest that the reason you can't see Jesus being presented as God in the scriptures, despite all of the evidence that points to this being the opinion of the New Testament's authors, is that you have reached a subjective opinion that unless you find the very words "Jesus is God" that you will not believe it. Well, that is close to what Thomas said about not believing that Jesus was raised from the dead. Then Jesus appeared to Thomas and Thomas' response was to address him as "My Lord and my God." But that's not good enough for you. Because in your "opinion", that's not the same as explicitly stating it. In my opinion, you've decided the answer before you even investigate the question. You are willing to accept only that which is explicitly stated, even though the idea that things need to be explicitly stated is itself never explicitly stated (nor do even see it implied) any where in scripture.

There are many other things that cause me to infer that Jesus is God beyond Thomas' statement. Many of them are in that long list of questions you were so kind as to answer. Terms that you said refer to God, but which in scripture are also used as references to the Son, the Lamb, the Messiah. And if, as you have stated, Jesus is the Son, the Lamb, and the Messiah. And if, as you have stated, these terms refer to God. Then it would follow, even if not explicitly stated, that Jesus then is being referenced as God. But you'll never allow yourself to see it, because then it would mean tossing that book which means so much to you. And, really, I can understand why that would be a hard thing to do.

 

[Walter]

Hi GS:


Well it appears that you have ignored the substance of my post once more. Let me try to explain again.

As individuals, we can believe anything. Much of what individual Christians believe is both inferred and explicit Biblical teachings. Some of the inferred teachings are consistently supported by other Biblical verses. However, some other inferred teachings actually conflict with other Biblical teachings. Paul addressed this situation in his letters to the Romans and Corinthians.

Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. (Romans 14:1-7)​

There is Biblical support for eating and not eating meat, and for esteeming and not esteeming one day above another. These can be called “doubtful things”, and Paul’s instructions are clear.

Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way. (Romans 14:13)

We then who are strong ought to bear with the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves. (Romans 15:1)​

I believe that we can both agree that “doubtful things” should not become church doctrines. However, they can remain as individual beliefs. Believers should have confidence discussing and defending church doctrines. However, young believers are made to stumble and fall when discussing doctrines that have no Biblical support. Jesus was quite angry with such people.

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:6)

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. (Matthew 23:12)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grenville, if you find me "ignoring" the substance of your post, it is because I don't always find them to be substantative.

I dispute that the identification of Jesus as God was in anyway held to be "doubtful" by Christians in the New Testament era. I find your total assumption to be based on a pretext that if the Bible doesn't say it explicity, then it can't be so. And yet you don't actually practice that hermenuetic consistently, and indeed practice almost exclusively in relation to this one idea and no other. Thus, I find your very argument itself to be disingenious and the "support" you cite for it to be circumspect.