Christian worship of Jesus..

[mkh4JC]

This is just one more reason why there can never be a syncretistic religion that involves both Christianity and Islam. We Christians would indeed hold that God is capable of having his infinite presence and power residing in a finite human being, for that is exactly what we mean when we speak of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in one's life. That you can't imagine that we would see as telling God that he is incapable of something. I know you don't see it that way. Just as I don't see the idea of Jesus as God as being paradoxical in a way that would prohibit it from being true.

There is actually a movement called Chrislam. I've read about it in several places. I was visiting a Christian site not too long ago. There was a bishop(ess?) in the Episcopal Church who claims she's both a Christian and a Muslim. Of course, as a born again Christian I don't believe that the two faiths are compatible, I was just pointing that out.

 

[Grace Seeker]

There is actually a movement called Chrislam. I've read about it in several places.

Interesting. I would love to find more common ground. But I don't see how it is possible to create a "Chrislam" that doesn't violate the basic tenents of at least one, if not both, faiths. However, I would be willing to at least listen and hear them out.

I was visiting a Christian site not too long ago. There was a bishop(ess?) in the Episcopal Church who claims she's both a Christian and a Muslim. Of course, as a born again Christian I don't believe that the two faiths are compatible, I was just pointing that out.

Yeah, I know about an Episcopal priest in Oregon of whom this is true. I couldn't believe that her orders were not revoked. Now you are saying there is an Episcopal bishop as well?????? I'm hoping that we are merely confusing different elements of the same story with one another.

 

[Grace Seeker]

EXACTLY where in the Qur'an does it say that the Jews "wrote in their Scripture that Ezra is the son of God"

I suspect it doesn't. But according to Khaldun it does say:

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah fight them; how worng are they! [Surah Tawbah verse 30]

The use of the definitive article "the" in refering to "the Jews" makes this a much more absolute statement than if it were to say "some Jews say" or even "Jews say." The reasonable (in my opinion) implication of the definitive article is make it seem as if this is a view held by not just a small isolated sect within Judaism, but that it is a representative statement for all Jews as a whole.

Imagine the outrage that would properly follow if I were to say, "the Muslims are terrorists." Of course, I don't believe that as a general statement about Muslims to be anywhere close to true. I do think that some small percentage of Muslims have committed acts of terror. No doubt there are small percentages of Jews and Christians who have committed acts of terror as well and with those isolated pockets that may even say that terrorism is justified. But I don't think it improves the situation to say, "the Muslims, the Jews, and the Christians say, 'terrorism is justified'."

So, perhaps there needs to be a new translation of the Qur'an produced for the use of English speaking Muslims, one that would remove the article "the" from that passage. I'm hoping, trusting that in the original Arabic no such article exists within the text.

 

[mkh4JC]

Yeah, I know about an Episcopal priest in Oregon of whom this is true. I couldn't believe that her orders were not revoked. Now you are saying there is an Episcopal bishop as well?????? I'm hoping that we are merely confusing different elements of the same story with one another.

No, I called her a bishop(ess) because I thought she was a woman bishop. It's been a while, so maybe I confused the story, maybe the woman wasn't a bishop.

 

[YusufNoor]

Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
EXACTLY where in the Qur'an does it say that the Jews "wrote in their Scripture that Ezra is the son of God"

I suspect it doesn't.

well if it doesn't, why do you pursue a line of questioning that you know is incorrect?

But according to Khaldun it does say:

i didn't ask you what Khaldun said, i asked to you to point out where the the statement THAT YOU MADE was in the Qur'an.

Originally Posted by Khaldun View Post
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah fight them; how worng are they! [Surah Tawbah verse 30]

The use of the definitive article "the" in refering to "the Jews" makes this a much more absolute statement than if it were to say "some Jews say" or even "Jews say." The reasonable (in my opinion) implication of the definitive article is make it seem as if this is a view held by not just a small isolated sect within Judaism, but that it is a representative statement for all Jews as a whole.

Imagine the outrage that would properly follow if I were to say, "the Muslims are terrorists." Of course, I don't believe that as a general statement about Muslims to be anywhere close to true. I do think that some small percentage of Muslims have committed acts of terror. No doubt there are small percentages of Jews and Christians who have committed acts of terror as well and with those isolated pockets that may even say that terrorism is justified. But I don't think it improves the situation to say, "the Muslims, the Jews, and the Christians say, 'terrorism is justified'."

ALL Christians are polytheists is different than the Christians are polytheists. see the difference? one is all inclusive, the other seeks clarification.

So, perhaps there needs to be a new translation of the Qur'an produced for the use of English speaking Muslims, one that would remove the article "the" from that passage. I'm hoping, trusting that in the original Arabic no such article exists within the text.

everything you writ there is goobledy gook. unlike some Christians that claim the bible is the Bible in EVERY language, we don't claim that translations are "the Qur'an." IF you want to understand the Qur'an, which seems highly unlikely as you are just trying to argue, you have to:

a) look at the Qur'an in it's original language and

b) see if it is explained anywhere else in the Qur'an

c) check the Tafseer of the Qur'an, esp. Ibn Abbbas.

d) see if the language itself explains it.

THEN, you might know what it means.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
Where in their scriptures do Jews actually say that Ezra is the son of God? I've heard this referred to by Muslims many times, but never have I heard a Jew say this, nor found it in any Bible used by either Jew or Christian. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place. Since the Qur'an said it, it must be so. So, where exactly is this statement to be found?

again, where does it say this in the Qur'an?

:wa:

 

[Khaldun]

u



I am sorry Grace Seeker but this shows how utterly little you know about the Qur'aan and its language. First of all when it says that the jews said, the al you are refering to is not the defenite particular rather this is what is known as 'aad dhinyy and only refers to the Jews of that area, this is a very well known thing in the arabic language and is used throughout the Qur'aan. For you to make your own opinion and then translate that into english is a grave injustice to say the least.

Also 'Khaldun said' What did I excatly say? I qouted the Qur'aan for you and that this is what the jews in madeenah say, I never refered to any scriptures nor did the Qur'aan, because these statments saying that Allah has a son is utter blasphemy, rather it was the jews and christians themselves [without any evidence in their scriptures] that said these things.

And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son

Certainly you have made an abominable assertion

The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces,

That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God.

And it is not worthy of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.

There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent God as a servant. [Surah Maryaam]

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: u

I am sorry Grace Seeker but this shows how utterly little you know about the Qur'aan and its language. First of all when it says that the jews said, the al you are refering to is not the defenite particular rather this is what is known as 'aad dhinyy and only refers to the Jews of that area, this is a very well known thing in the arabic language and is used throughout the Qur'aan. For you to make your own opinion and then translate that into english is a grave injustice to say the least.

I didn't do that. I read what you provided. If it was not a good translation into English that isn't my doing. I'm simply saying that when one uses the definite article in English in the way that the translation you provided did that it indicates a more universal statement as if refering to all Jews. If that isn't what it means, then fine, but your complaint is not with me, but with the translator.



May I ask, what it was that you were trying to communicate when you posted this:

Originally Posted by Khaldun
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah fight them; how worng are they! [Surah Tawbah verse 30]

What is the point of saying "and the Jews say...", if it isn't a statement that is actually representative of Jewish belief, but only true of a small isolated group that is not reflective of Judaism?

 

[YusufNoor]

Re: u

I didn't do that. I read what you provided. If it was not a good translation into English that isn't my doing. I'm simply saying that when one uses the definite article in English in the way that the translation you provided did that it indicates a more universal statement as if refering to all Jews. If that isn't what it means, then fine, but your complaint is not with me, but with the translator.



May I ask, what it was that you were trying to communicate when you posted this:What is the point of saying "and the Jews say...", if it isn't a statement that is actually representative of Jewish belief, but only true of a small isolated group that is not reflective of Judaism?

the Surah was revealed in Madinah. the Jews in Madinah said it. EVERYONE knew what the Ayat was talking about. in fact, a former Christian questioned this part of the Surah, the very next ayat:

Sahih International
: They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

well, to start with, the original post was commenting on how the Jews and the Christians were merely repeating the beliefs on the Greeks. it looks quite clear actually. let's look at it:

Say: If the Beneficent God has a son, then I would be the first one to worship him. [Surah Zukhruf verse 81]

The very fact that God made Himself into a human would cease His fact of being a God, since God is above His creation not part of it. God created His creation and is the Lord above it, He is not a part of His creation. This is in fact only repeating the beliefs of the ancient greeks who believed that Zues had children etc.

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah fight them; how worng are they! [Surah Tawbah verse 30]
__________________

i don't see any deception there.

i don't know why you go on like this. it's like you claiming that that you have a daughter that is a Muslim. a statement like that would imply that you actually have a daughter that is a Muslim. BUT you do NOT actually have a daughter that is a Muslim and yet you constantly make that statement.



:wa:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: u

well, to start with, the original post was commenting on how the Jews and the Christians were merely repeating the beliefs on the Greeks. it looks quite clear actually. let's look at it:

Again, which Jews? And for that matter which Christians?

If this is only a small isolated group, then it is irrelevant. If it is speaking of Jews and Christians as entire communities, then where have the Jews made the statement that they have been accused of making?

 

[YusufNoor]

Re: u

Again, which Jews?
the ones in Madinah

And for that matter which Christians?
i'm sure there are Christians SOMEWHERE that calls Jesus the son of God!

If this is only a small isolated group, then it is irrelevant. If it is speaking of Jews and Christians as entire communities,

does it say AS COMMUNITIES?

then where have the Jews made the statement that they have been accused of making?

you're really having a tough time with English today, aren't you?

if you go back to the post:

this little bit here:
the Surah was revealed in Madinah. the Jews in Madinah said it. EVERYONE in Madinah knew what the Ayat was talking about. in fact, a former Christian questioned this part of the Surah, the very next ayat:

Sahih International
: They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

can you read that? to the people of Madinah, the Jews living in Madinah were very relevant to the Muslims living in Madinah. [in fact, they could see them and everything! :hmm:]

with all this fuss about English, let's go back to:

i don't know why you go on like this. it's like you claiming that that you have a daughter that is a Muslim. a statement like that would imply that you actually have a daughter that is a Muslim. BUT you do NOT actually have a daughter that is a Muslim and yet you constantly make that statement.

and in your Bible, in Matthew 24:

33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right (AR)at the door.

34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

right there in English, it says that "The "Father" knows when Qiyama is, but the "Son" doesn't! and yet, you still claim the "Son" IS God!? but somehow "he" doesn't know what "He" knows!? co-equal, eh? trinity? or henotheism?

and you claim the Qur'an is unclear?

SubhanAllah!

btw, what do you do for a living?

 

[Khaldun]

Like brother YusufNoor said, if you want to understand Islaam and Qur'aan leave these translations. Also what you did Grace Seeker was to jump to conclusions you did not ask the muslims what this "the" really means? Rather you understood it in your particular way and made a silly argument on baseless stuff. You are right to say that the english translation was not good but what you did was shameful, if you do not understand something you ask not claim something falsely.

And Uzair being son of God is indeed part of Judaism, because this was a belief held by jews themselves unless you want to role out the jews of madeenah as not being real jews because they lived somewhere distant as the arabic peninsula.

To answer your last question I would like to draw your attention to the last portion of the verse.

How wrong/mistaken are they!

This refers to alot of aspects, one of them being the fact that these claims the christians and the jews made where not even in their scriptures in the first place, then how could they have gone so far astray and attribute offspring to the All-Mighty excatly as the pagans before them had done.

Judaism Christianity and Islaam are Abrahamic religions, they are built on the fundemental principle of one God monotheism and this is what seperates them from many other religions. Then how is it possible for the followers of Moses and Jesus to suddenly turn their heels against this very fundemental fact and actually repeat the excat same words of the pagans before them?

The Hindus believe in one God yet they have many sub gods, the ancient scandinavians believed in Oden as the supreme God yet he had other gods beside him. The ancient egyptains Atum was revered as the supreme God yet he too had gods besides him. And the list goes on.

The Abrahamic religions put a stop to this and called mankind towards the worship of one true God, without any partners not a child nor any assosciates.

Say: O followers of the Scritpures [Jews and Christians]! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims. [Suurah ale Imraan]

 

[anatolian]

Re: u

Again, which Jews? And for that matter which Christians?

If this is only a small isolated group, then it is irrelevant. If it is speaking of Jews and Christians as entire communities, then where have the Jews made the statement that they have been accused of making?

One thing I see while reading Quran is that It doesn't make generalizations about people. When Quran says something good or bad for a group it is only the ones who do the things to deserve the attributions.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Like brother YusufNoor said, if you want to understand Islaam and Qur'aan leave these translations. Also what you did Grace Seeker was to jump to conclusions you did not ask the muslims what this "the" really means?

OK. I'm guilty of jumping to conclusions. I apologize. So, allow me to return to where this discussion started.

Say: If the Beneficent God has a son, then I would be the first one to worship him. [Surah Zukhruf verse 81]

The very fact that God made Himself into a human would cease His fact of being a God, since God is above His creation not part of it. God created His creation and is the Lord above it, He is not a part of His creation. This is in fact only repeating the beliefs of the ancient greeks who believed that Zues had children etc.

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah fight them; how worng are they! [Surah Tawbah verse 30]

So, what does this really mean? How does this passage apply to the discussion? Are you saying that Jewish thought and Christian teachings are descendants of the beliefs of ancient Greeks who believed that Zeus had children? If not that, then what are you trying to say by the use of this quote?

 

[Khaldun]

Apolgizing and saying I am sorry are two different things.

I made it clear in my posts, the verse is refering to the fact that both jews and christians ascribed offspring to Allah, just how the ancient greeks (as an example) ascribed offspring to their deity.

Thus you are repeating the statement of disbelievers of old.

Did you even read the post I posted previously?

 

[CuteStuff]

If Jesus was GOD wouldnt Jesus been able to un-do himself from the cross? Instead God took him away before more pain was caused....

 

[mkh4JC]

If Jesus was GOD wouldnt Jesus been able to un-do himself from the cross? Instead God took him away before more pain was caused....

Here's a good couple of scriptures concerning what you just brought up:

'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Phillipians 2: 5-11.

So the point of this passage is to communicate to the reader that Christ willingly submitted himself to will of the Father. That Christ died on the cross does not mean that his life was taken from him, he willingly sacrificed himself to bring sinful, fallen man back to a holy God. Here's Jesus' own words:

'Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.' St. John 10: 17-18.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Apolgizing and saying I am sorry are two different things.

I made it clear in my posts, the verse is refering to the fact that both jews and christians ascribed offspring to Allah, just how the ancient greeks (as an example) ascribed offspring to their deity.

And is this an assertion you are now making with regard to all Jews, to Judaism as a religion, or just to a few isolated Jews that are not actually representative of Jews as a whole?

(I don't want to misconstrue your posts to say something that you aren't really saying. That is why, even if you have addressed this before, I am asking again rather than assuming I know the answer.)

 

[tango92]

can god die? no
can a man die? yes
can a god man die? christians say yes

if jesus the "godman" died then it makes sense that his manly side dies, but his godly side by definition cannot die - if his godly side did not die then his death cannot bear the sins of humanity.

if jesus' god and human side are intertwined then he can no longer posess all the atributes of god - eg he can forget - then he ceases to be god.

(you cant fit an infinitely large thing into a an infinitley small space - god is infinitely large relative to humans and humans are infinetly small relative to god, in terms of power)

 

[mkh4JC]

can god die? no
can a man die? yes
can a god man die? christians say yes

if jesus the "godman" died then it makes sense that his manly side dies, but his godly side by definition cannot die - if his godly side did not die then his death cannot bear the sins of humanity.

Well, the reason that he was able to bear the sins of humanity, is because he didn't sin.

'For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be the righteousness of God in him.' II Corinthians 5: 21.

It was Christ's divine nature that allowed him to live life perfectly and without sin. His was the perfect sacrifice.

if jesus' god and human side are intertwined then he can no longer posess all the atributes of god - eg he can forget - then he ceases to be god.

(you cant fit an infinitely large thing into a an infinitley small space - god is infinitely large relative to humans and humans are infinetly small relative to god, in terms of power)

Christians believe that God is omnipresent, that he exists everwhere and at all times.

'Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?'

Isaiah 66: 1

'But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?'

II Chronicles 2: 6

So Christ just took on flesh at an appointed time to die for the sins of the world, but while he was down here on earth he still existed in heaven.

 

[Grace Seeker]

can god die? no
can a man die? yes
can a god man die? christians say yes

if jesus the "godman" died then it makes sense that his manly side dies, but his godly side by definition cannot die - if his godly side did not die then his death cannot bear the sins of humanity.

if jesus' god and human side are intertwined then he can no longer posess all the atributes of god - eg he can forget - then he ceases to be god.

(you cant fit an infinitely large thing into a an infinitley small space - god is infinitely large relative to humans and humans are infinetly small relative to god, in terms of power)

I pretty much disagree with all your conclusions. Plus you don't fit God into anything, neither do I. God incarnates himself. No one does it to him.