Christian worship of Jesus..

[mkh4JC]

Allhamdulillah, at least you admit that the idea of test is Muslims' idea and you kuffaar reject it. Your alien beliefs do not come from any Prophetic revelation so it has no value and plus it is only your opinion.
you are simply playing with words --- sacrifice itself alludes to the fact something has been set for you and in order to overcome or achieve it you need to sacrifice somethings. and that is called a test, checking whether you will choose and do A or B. however, because your whole idea and understanding is corrupt, you do not want to admit it and picking straws to construct your point.

From the Christian perspective, God has set life and death in front of us, and it is up to us to choose life:

'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.' Deutoronomy 30: 19.

The things is, you can only choose life by accepting Christ as your savior and allowing him to live his life through you, being adopted into the family of God and beginning to live a life that is holy (yes I said holy), and pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

And the Christian life is one of hardship and suffering, so in that case there ARE tests, or the Lord putting you through things to prove you, so that you might come out as gold tried by fire. You don't go through things as a Christian so the Lord can see if you'll make it through, he already knows what you are going to do when you are in a mess or say, being oppressed of the devil, engaged in spiritual warfare, or when you are being persecuted; rather, you go through so God can show you what you are capable of enduring. And the more you go through, the stronger you get.

So we have faith in God by lip service and holding onto blampsheous beliefs and practices? The belief in the heart is completed with affirming it with speech of the tongue and speech of the tongue is completed with actions of the limbs. All of this is compounded and faith and righteous deeds are not complete if any one of them is missing. You are only focusing on spirtual part because that's all you got in your history book but for rest of things you believe your god was so unjust that he gave you no rules and laws to live by. Hence, you make up your own laws, whatever you feel is good, or depend on humans. Ever wondered, why many of Christians are turning into secularists and liberalists?

Christians are to emulate the life of Christ. Please be aware, that no one can completely emulate Christ, because he was perfect in all things. But by accepting Jesus into your life you then begin a journey towards perfection, and in fact, this is the only way you can begin that journey, other paths will get you no where. Why?

Because we are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to life a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. And that is what you have in all other faith based systems with the exception of the Christian faith, people trying to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh, and trying to please God with their own will power, when they are altogether alienated from God, unregenerated and born in sins, and need the Spirit of God living inside of them.

And it's true that someone who is really Christian can become an apostate, but in many of those cases I question whether they were truly saved (ie born again) to begin with. The Bible does say that during the last days there will be a Great Apostasy in the Church, one can see that happening before our eyes in the form of the Emergent Church. But I believe those who turn their backs on the Lord will be brought back into the fold so to speak, I don't think if you're truly Christian and you become an apostate that God won't bring you back into the fold.

I understand but crux of the matter is that you people are not certain about where is your god now! My other question was still stands: why was you god raised up? To who was he raised up? what was he gonna do up?

The Lord Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us, and waiting until all enemies of the Gospel are put under his feet. Here's a good Pslam concerning that:

'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Psalm 110: 1.

 

[Abdul Qadir]

Yeah, thanks for tell me what I just told you about hell being mentioned by name only 14 times....I fail to see how this connects to the topic of the thread -- Christian worship of Jesus.

Because i feel that the bible does not warn the ppl enuff..if there is such a thing like Hell, ppl need warning...especially those who disbelieve in Jesus Christ..but the bible seems to lack that...but the Quran says, whoever doesnt believe in monotheism, Allah will burn him in the hell-fire forever...many, many, many, many times...just like how Allah gives good news about the heavens in that same Quran...I feel that the bible has been changed too many a times from the original version to suit different ppl...

 

[mkh4JC]

Because i feel that the bible does not warn the ppl enuff..if there is such a thing like Hell, ppl need warning...especially those who disbelieve in Jesus Christ..but the bible seems to lack that...but the Quran says, whoever doesnt believe in monotheism, Allah will burn him in the hell-fire forever...many, many, many, many times...just like how Allah gives good news about the heavens in that same Quran...I feel that the bible has been changed too many a times from the original version to suit different ppl...

Maybe this will help:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_is_hell_mentioned_in_the_Bible

And in Revelation the apostle John says that both death and hell at the end of the age will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

 

[Abdul Qadir]

Maybe this will help:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_is_hell_mentioned_in_the_Bible

And in Revelation the apostle John says that both death and hell at the end of the age will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Okay, thanks for the link Fedos. The hell seems to be mentioned as grave or pits...in islam, we have a "little" hell in the grave too...likewise, a little heaven in the grave...

 

[Grace Seeker]

Because i feel that the bible does not warn the ppl enuff..if there is such a thing like Hell, ppl need warning...especially those who disbelieve in Jesus Christ..but the bible seems to lack that...but the Quran says, whoever doesnt believe in monotheism, Allah will burn him in the hell-fire forever...many, many, many, many times...just like how Allah gives good news about the heavens in that same Quran...I feel that the bible has been changed too many a times from the original version to suit different ppl...

You seem to want to talk about the whole system of Christian and Islamic thought with regard to God/Allah. I've no objection to that idea. It would be a fine topic, just waaaaayyyy beyond the scope of this particular thread.

 

[Abdul Qadir]

You seem to want to talk about the whole system of Christian and Islamic thought with regard to God/Allah. I've no objection to that idea. It would be a fine topic, just waaaaayyyy beyond the scope of this particular thread.

well, im too lazy to search for the best appropriate thread...Sorry!!! anyway, its not really that waaaaayyy off the topic isn't it? lol...

 

[Grace Seeker]

well, im too lazy to search for the best appropriate thread...Sorry!!! anyway, its not really that waaaaayyy off the topic isn't it? lol...

I can make a connection between discussing Christian worship of Jesus and hell in the Christus Victor idea. But, seriously, is that what you had in mind? I would be curious how you connect the two topics?

 

[Insecured soul]

I remember ahmed deedats lecture in which he said our mind make pictures of whatever u say, so when u say jesus (pbuh), the father, the holy ghost are not 3 but one? how??? how can u picturised 3 into 1????

when u say the father sitting in the heaven on his throne, what picture comes into ur mind? then u say jesus pbuh lived amonged men did so and so things what picture comes to ur mind? then u say holy ghost, what pictures u imagine?

and u can try it right now, try to make those pictures into 1.... and i find it impossible

salaam to all

 

[Abdul Qadir]

I can make a connection between discussing Christian worship of Jesus and hell in the Christus Victor idea. But, seriously, is that what you had in mind? I would be curious how you connect the two topics?

How i can connect those two topics? lol..i have no answer to that...just like that..random..ur not too offended aren't you?

 

[Grace Seeker]

How i can connected those two topics? lol..i have no answer to that...just like that..random..ur not too offended arn't you?

Nope, but I'll probably wait till another thread to talk about Hell and your question "according to the bible, what is the hell for?" unless someone else wants to ask the question in terms of Christian worship of Jesus.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I remember ahmed deedats lecture in which he said our mind make pictures of whatever u say,

Interesting, so whenever someone mentions Muhammad (pbuh), do you draw a picture of him in your mind?

 

[Abdul Qadir]

Interesting, so whenever someone mentions Muhammad (pbuh), do you draw a picture of him in your mind?

Whenever we think of Allah, are we allowed to "picture" Him? Ahmed Deedat oh Ahmed Deedat...

 

[mkh4JC]

I remember ahmed deedats lecture in which he said our mind make pictures of whatever u say, so when u say jesus (pbuh), the father, the holy ghost are not 3 but one? how??? how can u picturised 3 into 1????

when u say the father sitting in the heaven on his throne, what picture comes into ur mind? then u say jesus pbuh lived amonged men did so and so things what picture comes to ur mind? then u say holy ghost, what pictures u imagine?

and u can try it right now, try to make those pictures into 1.... and i find it impossible

salaam to all

Well, the best way I can describe the Trinity is to say that we are made in the image of God (as described in the book of Genesis) and as God is Triune or a three-fold being and is still one so too are we: as it goes; God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

 

[Danah]

Interesting, so whenever someone mentions Muhammad (pbuh), do you draw a picture of him in your mind?

There is an authenticated Hadeeth Actually describing the prophet Mohammed image in details (his length, skin color, hair, eyes.....etc).
He is a human after all man!!
Seriously Grace Seeker!! I don't understand how can someone like you with your knowledge about Islam put Mohammed peace be upon him (the human) in comparison with God!!

 

[tango92]

Nope, but I'll probably wait till another thread to talk about Hell and your question "according to the bible, what is the hell for?" unless someone else wants to ask the question in terms of Christian worship of Jesus.

christ is supposed to have died for all human sins, but what about the people before jesus? how could they belive in his crucifixion when it hadnt taken place?

 

[mkh4JC]

christ is supposed to have died for all human sins, but what about the people before jesus? how could they belive in his crucifixion when it hadnt taken place?

The Old Testament saints were awaiting the promise of the Messiah. God judged people during the Old Testament by their response to that promise, and by keeping the law. But he also made provision for those who didn't live in the Jewish state:

'For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themsevles:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;' Romans 2: 14-15.

I don't believe this is saying that you can hear the Gospel many, many times and consider it hogwash and still go to heaven. I think this is saying for people who never hear the name of Jesus, God has still made a way available for even them. And of course many Missionaries attest to going throughout all the world and preaching the Gospel and the people who have never heard of Jesus confess that they've had dreams of him.

To further expound upon this concept, where did the Old Testament saints go upon death? They didn't go to heaven:

'Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.' Ephesians 4: 9-10.


'And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.' Luke 16: 19-31.

Last few scriptures is here and then I'll make my point: 'Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.' Ephesians 4: 8

And here: 'And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' Matthew 27: 52-53.

So then hell as we know it from the Christian perspective is actually at this moment in time in the center of the Earth. But before Jesus died to save man from his sins, paradise was also in the center of the earth. There was between the two areas a great gulf fixed, so that no man could travel from here to there. When Jesus ascended, he delivered those who were in the center of the Earth who were the Lord's people out of the Earth. Some of them went on to be with the Lord in the third heaven (where God is), and some of them walked among men.

 

[Grace Seeker]

There is an authenticated Hadeeth Actually describing the prophet Mohammed image in details (his length, skin color, hair, eyes.....etc).
He is a human after all man!!
Seriously Grace Seeker!! I don't understand how can someone like you with your knowledge about Islam put Mohammed peace be upon him (the human) in comparison with God!!

I'm not putting Muhammad in comparison with God. I'm questioning adib1234's process by which he is evaluating the Trinity. He rejects the concept of the Trinity on the grounds that he has been told that one automatically creates a picture of whatever one things about and he cannot create a picture in his mind of the Trinity that is not shirk. Yet, according to the knowledge of Islam that I have, one is not even allowed to create a picture of Muhammad in any medium -- seems to me that would include the pictures of one's mind. But if we accept the premise that adib1234 has with regard to mental constructs being formed of anything one speaks about, then to speak about Muhammad, who indeed is a human after all, would create a picture of him in one's mind. So, if Ahmed Deet and adib1234 are to be believed, the very process of thinking about Muhammad (pbuh) would (intentional or not) violate the tenents of Islam.

Now, personally, I don't there is anything wrong with coming up with a picture of Muhammad in one's mind. But abid1234 would not want to for it would violate his beliefs. My guess is that in reality it is possible for him to think about Muhammad without having to form a specific picture in his mind. Thus, by example from his own practice, I am trying to show abid1234 that Ahmed Deedat's claim that "our mind make pictures of whatever u say" simply isn't so. And just as adib1234 is able to think of Muhammad without forming a specific picture in his mind, I am capable of thinking of the Trinity without forming a specific picture in my mind. However, the fact that I don't have a specific picture doesn't make the Trinity any less real than the fact that adib1234 doesn't have a specific picture in his mind makes Muhammad not real.

 

[Grace Seeker]

christ is supposed to have died for all human sins, but what about the people before jesus? how could they belive in his crucifixion when it hadnt taken place?

Good question. But it presupposes an assumption that you might be surprised to find is not a necessary part of Christian theology. It presupposes that a person has to know the Biblical story about Jesus to receive the benefits of his acts. The NT itself says that this isn't so. Rather, Hebrews has a whole chapter, Hebrews 11, that discusses that there is a whole list of people who lived and died generations before the time of Christ that simply put their faith in God knowing that he would accomplish their salvation. And this list is not exhaustive, but simply representative of how God works through faith in the lives of those who trust him. Jesus' life, death, and resurrection are still the means of one's reconciliation with God, but the faith we need doesn't have to be articulated around that particular story, but simply in God himself.

 

[Uthman]

Greetings Grace Seeker,

Now, personally, I don't there is anything wrong with coming up with a picture of Muhammad in one's mind.

Neither does Islam. There is no prohibition on picturing Prophet Muhammad saws in one's mind. If you are interested, you can find very detailed descriptions of his physical appearance here.

Also, if I may, I think you may have misunderstood Brother adib's argument (which I don't necessarily endorse myself). If I understood correctly, he was arguing that, although it might be possible for the human mind to form a mental image of the three separate entities of the trinity individually, it isn't possible for the mind to picture them all as one. He rejects the concept as illogical on that basis. Again, I'm just saying this for the sake of clarification. I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the argument.

Regards

 

[Grace Seeker]

Greetings Grace Seeker, Neither does Islam. There is no prohibition on picturing Prophet Muhammad saws in one's mind. If you are interested, you can find very detailed descriptions of his physical appearance here.

Thank-you for the edification. I had read differently in other places. Maybe there isn't universal agreement on this point. So, can I put down on paper that which I see in my mind's eye?

Also, if I may, I think you may have misunderstood Brother adib's argument (which I don't necessarily endorse myself). If I understood correctly, he was arguing that, although it might be possible for the human mind to form a mental image of the three separate entities of the trinity individually, it isn't possible for the mind to picture them all as one. He rejects the concept as illogical on that basis. Again, I'm just saying this for the sake of clarification. I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the argument.

Regards

I'll grant that may have been what was intended to be said, but if so this is just another way of saying that if a human mind can't conceive of something that it therefore cannot be. No human mind conceived of the Qur'an, therefore it cannot be. I trust you see the fallacy of that argument without further comment.