Christian worship of Jesus..

[Uthman]

Greetings,

Thanks for the reply.

Thank-you for the edification. I had read differently in other places. Maybe there isn't universal agreement on this point. So, can I put down on paper that which I see in my mind's eye?

Well I'm certainly not aware of any difference of opinion amongst mainstream/orthodox scholarship on this issue. The answer to your question, as far as (I believe all) mainstream Islamic scholars are concerned, is no. See this.

But we now digress from the topic. Feel free to continue discussing this elsewhere.

Regards

 

[MSalman]

Jesus' resurrection serves as vindication of his life and sacrifice.

what was the point of sacrifice if he was resurrected after three days? Is that how the sacrifice was defined and understood in Torah?

Those who had him crucified thought that they had won the day, but obviously they hadn't. Even more importantly it shows that death and the devil don't win the day either. The resurrection is as strong of a proclamation as one could make that Christ is victor or all the sources and powers of evil in this world. The devil may have thought that he could lay claim to people who don't pass the test of life (I mention that because it seems to be important to you), death rather than life being the wages of sin. But Christ entered death and then like a time bomb going off in the very depths of hell itself he destroyed death. We will still experience physical death because our mortal bodies die, but we need never experience spiritual death because we have been claimed by and made alive forever in Jesus Christ.

completely irrelevant to what is being discussed. So resurrection was the way to show that the day was won by your god? Why did he not save himself from being murdered at the hands of his creation? What was he doing then by humiliating himself? Did he lost on that day? did he also lose on the day when he was tempted by satan?

The death and the devil no longer have any power to claim us

oh really, yet more than half of the population is not christian

for Christ as already won that victory for us

if the victory is already claimed then what is the point of life continuing. why didn't your god just end the world right there? if everyone is going to go to heaven by just saying "i believe in the god who was killed by his creation", what is the point?

one we could never win if it merely depended on our ability to pass the test of life where one slip and you die.

neither one could win by disobeying the Lord. I do not know which religion say that we get the heaven only due to our ability or there is death afterlife, at least not Islam.

That's the good news of the Gospel message, it no longer is one slip and you die. And that's always way the concept of the Injil that Muslims like to talk about is NOT what Jesus came for. He didn't come as much to tell us how to live, not even to be our example, he came to actually win life back for us. He didn't do that with words, but with action.

well, maybe in your pseudo christian world but not in Prophetic world. In Prophetic world, God does not enter into His creation neither gets humiliated and killed by His creation nor screams to Himself for forsaking Himself.

 

[MSalman]

From the Christian perspective, God has set life and death in front of us, and it is up to us to choose life:

'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.' Deutoronomy 30: 19.

The things is, you can only choose life by accepting Christ as your savior and allowing him to live his life through you, being adopted into the family of God and beginning to live a life that is holy (yes I said holy), and pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

And the Christian life is one of hardship and suffering, so in that case there ARE tests, or the Lord putting you through things to prove you, so that you might come out as gold tried by fire. You don't go through things as a Christian so the Lord can see if you'll make it through, he already knows what you are going to do when you are in a mess or say, being oppressed of the devil, engaged in spiritual warfare, or when you are being persecuted; rather, you go through so God can show you what you are capable of enduring. And the more you go through, the stronger you get.

my friend that is fine but some of your fellow brothers try to play around with words and you have seen the example of grace seeker.

Christians are to emulate the life of Christ. Please be aware, that no one can completely emulate Christ, because he was perfect in all things. But by accepting Jesus into your life you then begin a journey towards perfection, and in fact, this is the only way you can begin that journey, other paths will get you no where. Why?

Because we are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to life a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. And that is what you have in all other faith based systems with the exception of the Christian faith, people trying to live a spiritual life in the wholly corrupted flesh, and trying to please God with their own will power, when they are altogether alienated from God, unregenerated and born in sins, and need the Spirit of God living inside of them.

And it's true that someone who is really Christian can become an apostate, but in many of those cases I question whether they were truly saved (ie born again) to begin with. The Bible does say that during the last days there will be a Great Apostasy in the Church, one can see that happening before our eyes in the form of the Emergent Church. But I believe those who turn their backs on the Lord will be brought back into the fold so to speak, I don't think if you're truly Christian and you become an apostate that God won't bring you back into the fold.

this does not address any of my points. see the problem with you people is that your boat does not move away from spiritual concept. Life is not all about spiritual laws but this is all you got in your history book. Everything else is left to humans: either relaying on group of people or your own reasoning.

Grace Seeker claimed that day has won and all that yet you people are fighting non-believers day and night. in addition, you are left in chaos because you have to relay on humans to governor rules in your life.

The Lord Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, interceding for us, and waiting until all enemies of the Gospel are put under his feet. Here's a good Pslam concerning that:

'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Psalm 110: 1.

and where is that exactly? so the jesus god is sitting at the right hand of father god? so we have two gods now?

 

[Grace Seeker]

and where is that exactly? so the jesus god is sitting at the right hand of father god? so we have two gods now?

You repeatedly have much trouble with Biblical metaphor. Do you interpret the Qu'ran so literally?

 

[Supreme]

if the victory is already claimed then what is the point of life continuing. why didn't your god just end the world right there? if everyone is going to go to heaven by just saying "i believe in the god who was killed by his creation", what is the point?

Because 'our' God wanted the Good news (Gospel in Old English) to reach every person in every nation, otherwise such a victory is futile. Moreover, if everyone goes to heaven by just saying 'I believe in Allah and Muhammed is his messenger', what is the point?

 

[Grace Seeker]

well, maybe in your pseudo christian world but not in Prophetic world. In Prophetic world, God does not enter into His creation neither gets humiliated and killed by His creation nor screams to Himself for forsaking Himself.

There is not a Prophetic world and a pseudo Christian world or even a merely Christian world. There is just the one world that God made and you and I with our different worldviews both live in it. You might think my worldview is wrong, but I see that as your problem, not mine.

As to the what is the Gospel, it certainly is not what you mean when you speak of the Injil. They are so different in concept you shouldn't even translate the word Injil into English if the best you can do is Gospel, because you just confuse the issue.

Mark begins, "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1), which shows it is not just a record of facts, but a message based on them. This Gospel message is based not on the words of Jesus, but on the events of Jesus' life. At least this is what Christians mean by the term. It is what we have always meant by the term since it was first coined as a euangelion, a message of good news. That good news is in the reconciling work of Christ. If you are not talking about that, but a series of rules and regulations, then you are still talking about Law. And Jesus made it clear in his own preaching, that his gospel was about a new kingdom that is founded on a new order. A message that in essence says, "he knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sakes" isn't really any thing new, it's just Law repackaged, and it certainly isn't a gospel message.

 

[Grace Seeker]

completely irrelevant to what is being discussed.

If you think the Chirstus victor idea is not relevant to the discussion it only shows you don't understand issues at the heart of this discussion.

So resurrection was the way to show that the day was won by your god?

It showed that the devil had not won. This goes all the way back to dealing with questions like the problem of pain, why do bad things happen to good people, and where does sin come from in a perfect world created by a God who declares it to be good. Even in Islamic thought, there is a neutral world, why does it go downhill from there? If God created Iblis, then is God the author of evil? How does simply commanding people to do right by God accomplish anything? We still see that even those who claim to be followers of Islam still sin and don't follow. Is God suppose to just overlook this? The honor of Allah is so important to Muslims, and yet they don't seem to mind that in the end God simply accepts that people are imperfect and without any upholding of his own divine character, one sullied by those who should have been obedient to him but are (some a little bit disobedient, some a lot, but none who are never disobey, so that all dishonor Allah at some point). Without rectifiying this situation what we have is a God who stand impotent in the face of his belligerent children that can sin breaking his rules and not living in complete submission and he just has to take it. He can either justly condemn us all to hell in which case Ibilis has won a victory over Allah in stealing all of Allah's creation from him. Or, Allah can deny his own honor and grant acceptance into paradise with him to those who have dishonored him.

So, which is it? You decide. Does Allah lose to Ibilis? Or does Allah stoop to allowing those who have dishonored him to be accepted? Both of our respective faiths have concluded that it is the later. Islam does not put forth a mechanism by which Allah accomplishes this other than to accept the dishonor. Christianity proposes that in Jesus Christ there is a means by which God's honor is perserved and imperfect people saved at the same time. The Christus victor idea is very relevant to that discussion. And if you understood it, you would have your answer to all the other question that you continue to meaninglessly repeat thread after thread:

Why did he not save himself from being murdered at the hands of his creation?

What was he doing then by humiliating himself?

Did he lost on that day? did he also lose on the day when he was tempted by satan?

if the victory is already claimed then what is the point of life continuing. why didn't your god just end the world right there? if everyone is going to go to heaven by just saying "i believe in the god who was killed by his creation", what is the point?

I say meaninglessly repeat because I have seen these or similar ones possessed by you before. I and other Christians have addressed them. You continue to return to them as if they have not be addressed. Even if you don't accept our answers, if you actually were serious in asking your questions you would do more than to continue to pose them time and time again as a serious of nothing more than rhetorical questions, for which I don't believe even care to read for understanding, but only to get your next post.

When I sense that you actually care to listen I'll respond, but until then I've said all that I need to say with regard to your "questions".

 

[mkh4JC]

this does not address any of my points. see the problem with you people is that your boat does not move away from spiritual concept. Life is not all about spiritual laws but this is all you got in your history book. Everything else is left to humans: either relaying on group of people or your own reasoning.

This is what I highlighted in your post and endeavored to respond to:

you believe your god was so unjust that he gave you no rules and laws to live by. Hence, you make up your own laws, whatever you feel is good, or depend on humans. Ever wondered, why many of Christians are turning into secularists and liberalists?

We as Christians are under a better Covenant than the Old Testament laws that the Jews had to live by, a more perfect Covenant. It is impossible for a human being to try to live out the law of the Old Testament perfectly. Christ did away with the law. He came into the world, lived a life perfectly under the law, gave his life for sinners, and was raised the third day, conquering death and sin for us.

When you accept him, you receive his perfect righteousness (remember he lived perfectly under the law) and you are then delivered from all the things that you were bound with while you were in your sins, so that you can begin to live a life of holiness. The message of the Gospel is that we can never do anything of our own power to appease a God who demands perfection. God gave the law to the Jewish people so they could see just how far short they came from meeting the mark, so they could see that they desperately needed a Savior.

Grace Seeker claimed that day has won and all that yet you people are fighting non-believers day and night. in addition, you are left in chaos because you have to relay on humans to governor rules in your life.

Christ rests, rules, and abides with each and every believer. He rules our lives. He watches over us. God will establish his earthly rule and kingdom in this world, but this is a time of grace that we are all under. You don't see fire raining down from heaven like in the Old Testament. God is giving man a chance to come to him. Once God wraps up this age, then he will usher in his kingdom, and all those who have accepted Christ throughout the ages will enter in.

and where is that exactly? so the jesus god is sitting at the right hand of father god? so we have two gods now?

The best way that I can explain the Trinity is to say that we are made in the image and likeness of God (as it is described in Genesis) and as God is a Triune or three-fold being and still one so too are we three-fold beings: as it goes; God=The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Christ rests, rules, and abides with each and every believer. He rules our lives. He watches over us. God will establish his earthly rule and kingdom in this world, but this is a time of grace that we are all under. You don't see fire raining down from heaven like in the Old Testament. God is giving man a chance to come to him. Once God wraps up this age, then he will usher in his kingdom, and all those who have accepted Christ throughout the ages will enter in.

And let us not forget that the created world is more than just a material world. The spiritual world is a also a part of this created world and there is an existential level to it in which God reconciles us to himself. The eschataological end times that so many people look forward to as the resolution of all things is not where the issue is resolved. Rather, it has already been settled. Jesus' offering of himself on the cross is not just an event that took place in time and space, the resultant acts of sinful men. It was a cosmic event so that by his stripes we are healed. And his resurrection was likewise a cosmic event, destroying the power of not just the devil but of sin and even death itself. As recipients of God's grace, we don't have to await some eschatalogical end time to know that we have been redeemed, we experience such presence of God in our lives in the here and now through the presence of God's Holy Spirit which is given as an assurance (a seal) of an already realized hope in our own lives even now, not just in the end. And this same victory has been won even for those who reject it, "for God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Christ], and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Colossians 1:19-20). Sadly, not everyone appropriates for themselves that which has already been made available to them, and that is what the time of grace is for. Not awaiting a final victory, for it is finished. The present is a time of prevenient grace that all might come to knowledge of and accept this already available saving grace.

 

[Insecured soul]

Whenever we think of Allah, are we allowed to "picture" Him? Ahmed Deedat oh Ahmed Deedat...

its not about allowing or allowing its how we are made its how our brain works

if i tell u that im 5.8 wheatesh, thin, and have long hair would u not imagine how i look?

there is no physical discription of allah swt in quran so u can never imagine him as it is we can never imagine him or else if there was one then im sure even we would have idols symbolizing god

what ahmed deedat actually meant was that when christian say that 3 are 1 our mind doesnt accept that and it aint logical

i dont know if someone else finds this logical but i do.

 

[Abdul Qadir]

its not about allowing or allowing its how we are made its how our brain works

if i tell u that im 5.8 wheatesh, thin, and have long hair would u not imagine how i look?

there is no physical discription of allah swt in quran so u can never imagine him as it is we can never imagine him or else if there was one then im sure even we would have idols symbolizing god

what ahmed deedat actually meant was that when christian say that 3 are 1 our mind doesnt accept that and it aint logical

i dont know if someone else finds this logical but i do.

Brother Adib, i was being ignorant when i said that. May Allah bless the soul of Ahmed Deedat...and may Allah forgive me..

 

[Grace Seeker]

what ahmed deedat actually meant was that when christian say that 3 are 1 our mind doesnt accept that and it aint logical

i dont know if someone else finds this logical but i do.

No, I actually find it not a logical response, but an emotional one. Simply because one is not able to understand the logic of something does not mean that it is illogical. There is much in this world that I don't understand. I don't understand the inner workings of an atom, but I don't assume that atomic theory is illogical for that reason. I've read and understood some Plato and Aristotle, but not everything they wrote. Does that mean that because I fail to understand the logic of some of the world's greatest philosophers that they are illogical? I don't think so. I read the Qur'an and find it saying things that to me simply don't make sense. Would I therefore be correct in saying that the Qur'an is therefore illogical? Or do these things simply illustrate my own deficiencies? Sometimes we need to be willing to admit that just because something doesn't make sense to me, that it doesn't mean that it is automatically wrong. Does it make sense that a holy Allah would allow sinful people to be admitted to paradise simply because they've done more good than evil as if life was all about balancing a scale, so that Allah would actually admit into his holy and perfect world, people that while good are also at the same time guilty of sins against both Allah and Allah's creation? It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm sure it does to you. Should I therefore say that your understanding of the ways of Allah are illogical simply because they don't fit my worldview? I believe to do that would be not a logical decision, but an emotional one. And I suggest that your response to the ideas of the Trinity which you fail to understand is similarly more of an emotional reaction to your own deficient understanding than the "logical" process you project it to be.

 

[anatolian]

Now, could we say that human worship is a part of Christianity inevitably or would it be an irrevelant statement?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Now, could we say that human worship is a part of Christianity inevitably or would it be an irrevelant statement?

I don't know. I'm not sure what you mean by it?

 

[anatolian]

Maybe my bad English.

Can we say that human worship exists in Christianity as a result or is it an irrevelant statement?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Can we say that human worship exists in Christianity as a result or is it an irrevelant statement?

Can you say that human worship exists in Christianity as a result of what? Because Jesus was both God and man?

Maybe my bad English.

O zaman Türkçe konuşunuz. Belki anlayayım.

 

[anatolian]

Can you say that human worship exists in Christianity as a result of what? Because Jesus was both God and man?



O zaman Türkçe konuşunuz. Belki anlayayım.

Tamam, sen istedin. Nihayetinde doğru anladınız, İsa'nın Hristiyanlıkta hem Tanrı hem insan olması sebebiyle.

I can translate or erase it if mods want so.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Still trying to understand the question: "Did I finally understand Jesus and God in Christianity because of the human being?"


Taken alongside your previous question: "Can we say that human worship exists in Christianity as a result or is it an irrevelant statement?" I'm going to try to answer, and then you let me know if I'm addressing the question you are actually asking or not.



At one level I can understand why one might think that Christians worship a human being. We do worship Jesus, and we acknowledge that he was a human being. But it is not his humanness that we worship. We worship Jesus because we believe him to actually be the one and only God of the universe, the creator of all things, the Lord God himself. We believe that though God exists completely outside of time and space and the created world, that he chose to enter into it and identify himself with fleshly humanity and did so specifically in the person of Jesus who has two natures in his one person being both 100% God and 100% man at the same time.

Now, I can see in scripture why those assertions with regard to Jesus are made. I will also readily confess that while I can see why the claims are made, I still have a hard time understanding exactly how it works as it is described as working. It is one of those things where scripture tells you what is true, without telling us exactly how it is possible for it to be true.

The Apostle Paul who when we first meet him in the book Acts is actually attacking Christians speciifically because they are promoting this Jesus as God becomes the biggest convert and takes up the cause with more zeal than perhaps anyone else in history. He seems to find vindication of the idea that Jesus is God in the proclamation of his death and resurrection. Obviously, that was something experienced by the human being Jesus. And it is for this that Paul declares that Jesus is elevated to a position of glory.

But really, the resurrection itself is presented as a two-fold event. Partly it is because of Jesus' complete and utter obedience. Since he willing submitted even to death -- and here we have the archetype of the sacrifice of Abraham's son who was willing to be submissive to God's commands, but was spared by the offering of a ram. But Jesus is not spared; rather, he is declared to be "the Lamb of God". And because of of this willingness to fulfill all that was asked of him by God, God rewards Jesus with resurrection and glorification. In this sense Jesus is just the perfect human being, who God then glorifies with the glory that is normally reserved for himself. My concern with this is that then I think Christianity is guilty of having a form of polytheism. The other way that the resurrection is presented is that in giving his life up as an offering for sin, and taking on the consequences of that in his own life, those consequence being death, that Jesus suffered and died as a human and (in accordance with the first century Jewish understanding of what happens to all men at the point of death) he descended to the region of the dead. The devil, who is understood to be God's adversary and seeks to claim all people, felt that he had finally won a vicotry. But the reality is that he had no legitimate claim to Jesus, for Jesus had committed no sin and was not deserving of death. Thus, he burst the bonds of hell and death and led those who had been captive there to new and eternal life. This he did because of the power and nature of God that was within him. Some of the oldest Christian stories of explaining this resurrection of all the dead, tell of it as if death were like a fish swallowing the bait but there was a hook (the eternal life of God that was present within Jesus), and so death swallowed that as well and was defeated by it. In this way Jesus is presented as God who actually submits himself to take on all that is wrong with humanity upon himself in order to do away with it and rid us of it. He is not himself stained by it, but he does endure its pain in order to free us.

In either way of thinking, it is in the humanity of Jesus that God accomplishes for us what is necessary to bring about our salvation. And for that we celebrate what Jesus did. But I don't think we would worship him, if we understood him to be nothing more than a great man. It is because it was really God who did this in the person of Jesus and that we understand God and Jesus to be one and the same being that we worship him. For to worship God is to, at least in part, give thanks for what he did in Jesus. And to worship Jesus is to worship the God who made himself known by coming to dwell among us in the flesh. We don't draw a distinction between the two. (Which, btw, is why the whole problem of ascribing partners to God never makes sense to us Christians. We don't imagine Jesus being a partner with God at all, since we understand him to actually be God.)

 

[abu salaahudeen]

Nope. What happened is that in reading the scriptures as they talked about Jesus, Christians realized that in some places it talked about Jesus as just an ordinary man -- he wept, was hungry, bled and died, he had limited knowledge, he was clearly uniquely not God the Father; yet in those same scriptures, often in the same context, he exhibited traits that are known to be uniquely divine in nature -- he did miracles, he claimed the power to forgive sins, he was describe as existing before time and outside of creation, even being the one who did the act of creating, he was one with the Father.

The first century Christians never seemed to question these things, they just accepted them as all being true of Jesus. But in later centuries questions arose about whether one set of traits meant that Jesus ought to be understood as divine and then another that Jesus ought to be understood as merely human, and then some came up with all sorts of hybrid options -- a human body with a divine soul for instance or that his body was just an illusion. The church wrestled with it for about 300 years till the forumula called the hypostatic union was articulated and that idea seems to have stuck, at least with the majority.

But while the idea as you hear us talk about it has its roots in the Bible it is never specifically spelled out in the Bible. If it had been, it would have saved us a few hundred years of reading and wrestling with the idea to understand how it was that the Bible presented Jesus both ways at the same time.

So let me get this straight it does not mention of Jesus' divinity specifically but it speaks of his human self? So how is it that you derive this in such great length?

Beacause a person performs miracles it does not this person a god incarnate

 

[anatolian]

Still trying to understand the question: "Did I finally understand Jesus and God in Christianity because of the human being?"


Taken alongside your previous question: "Can we say that human worship exists in Christianity as a result or is it an irrevelant statement?" I'm going to try to answer, and then you let me know if I'm addressing the question you are actually asking or not.

OK. I understand your explanation. The human nature of Jesus is irrevelant when you worship him so you don't worship human.