Logical proof for the existence of holy god.

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My gods would not cease to exist if you find their messengers or the scriptures reprehensible. However, if you wish to seek the truth:

Heisod: Works and Days, Theogeny

and

Shield of Heracles

Homer: Iliad, Odyssey


All the best,


Faysal


a couple of those were indeed fun to read, homer was a delight.. I fail to glean any moral/social/religious/after life meaning from them..

can you tell the difference between life as you live it and a movie? can you tell the difference between science and science fiction? can you tell the difference between real medicine and quackery? can you tell the difference between mythology and history? can you tell the difference between a book that claims to be from God and a Greek poem by a Greek poethttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod describing rural life?

I'll have to assume some level of intelligence here (I don't know why I like the benefit of the doubt) if you are going to engage in such a debate, carry yourself to a level, you only insult yourself with a wikpedia article and a half assed attempt to turn this around! (see my previous reply to aamir) in fact the note I closed with there, should be the one I close with here too!


all the best
 
can you tell the difference between life as you live it and a movie?
Usually

can you tell the difference between science and science fiction?
The line seems to get finer by the day.

can you tell the difference between real medicine and quackery?
see previous

can you tell the difference between mythology and history?
Well you're clearly not being serious about this. I've presented to you Gods that thousands of people have believed. Their tales have shaped the culture and history of our people in significant ways. We owe them great gratitude. Like it or not they are as much a part of history as what you call mythology.

can you tell the difference between a book that claims to be from God and a Greek poem by a Greek poet
I've never seen nor heard a book make a claim. I've seen and heard plenty of people make claims.

I'll have to assume some level of intelligence here (I don't know why I like the benefit of the doubt) if you are going to engage in such a debate, carry yourself to a level, you only insult yourself with a wikpedia article and a half assed attempt to turn this around! (see my previous reply to aamir) in fact the note I closed with there, should be the one I close with here too!

Thanks for dropping in.

All the best,


Faysal
 

oh good!

The line seems to get finer by the day.
better still!

see previous
voids happen

Well you're clearly not being serious about this.
Serious topics require serious thought.. imbecility can be answered with a quip!
I've presented to you Gods that thousands of people have believed.
and?

Their tales have shaped the culture and history of our people in significant ways.
How so?
We owe them great gratitude. Like it or not they are as much a part of history as what you call mythology.
Harry potter is part of history too.. I am not sure of the significance to spiritual life!

I've never seen nor heard a book make a claim. I've seen and heard plenty of people make claims.
You are not well read and no more!.. and judging from the quotes you used to question the Quran upon you joining our forum, I can tell which sites too.. I would like to know if it is still considered free thought when another brand of herd adheres to it?

Thanks for dropping in.
I have had better!

All the best,
Faysal
Indeed..

P.S-- it is now possible to legally change your name.. can't think of anything worse than getting the Muslim stigma (through name or looks) while not actually being a Muslim...

all the best
 
Well you can, it just requires a detour. It's time for a role reversal. Muslims engaged in this thread can remain Muslims. I will play the role of a believer.

To Yahya Sulaiman, naidamar, justify, and other Muslims

I propose to you, that the god Chaos, creator of the universe, exists. She gave birth to Gaia, Eros, and Nyx. Gaia later gave birth to Uranus, who she eventually married, and through Tethys then Clymene we come to brothers Epimetheus and Prometheus who created the creatures of the earth. Prometheus being jealous and clever stole fire from Zeus to give it to his favorite creation (Man). We celebrate that act to this day by symbolizing that journey at the start of every Olympic game (summer and winter).

Saturn, the roman counterpart to Cronus (Greek), was the god of agriculture and harvest. Upon the instructions of his mother (Terra/Gaea), he castrated his father and became the ruler of the universe, eventually bringing the golden age to Rome. We celebrate his rule each year with the Feast of Saturnalia which is held every year at the Winter Solstice. We even honor him each week by naming the seventh day after him (Saturday).

I presume you believe that no god(s) exist(s) other than Allah. Can you provide sufficient evidence to me that these gods do not or did not exist?

All the best,

Faysal

Those gods have features of created beings (human-like especially when giving "birth?"). Hence they cannot be my gods or anyone's gods (even if someone deluded human believes that). There you go. Those "gods" could have existed in history as animals/humans, I wish I could care. They, very well, could not have existed. I do not care about providing evidence for their existence or not as it does not really matter. The evidence that they were not gods is dang clear though.

By the way, you do not need to tell us again and again that you are a murtad/mulhid/zindeeq. I, actually, do not like that you still retain the name of a Muslim culture while you flushed that Muslim belief down the drain. You might argue that Faisal is a secular name and has nothing to do with Islam. You might be right. But you are clearly trying to identify yourself with Muslim laity by using that name. Get rid of it.

Very coherent and logical arguments by br Yahya and Sr Gossamer. The Muslim laymen, who are not much into philosophy etc, can also listen to br Hamza Andreas Tzortzis on youtube.
 
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Well you can, it just requires a detour. It's time for a role reversal. Muslims engaged in this thread can remain Muslims. I will play the role of a believer.

To Yahya Sulaiman, naidamar, justify, and other Muslims

I propose to you, that the god Chaos, creator of the universe, exists. She gave birth to Gaia, Eros, and Nyx. Gaia later gave birth to Uranus, who she eventually married, and through Tethys then Clymene we come to brothers Epimetheus and Prometheus who created the creatures of the earth. Prometheus being jealous and clever stole fire from Zeus to give it to his favorite creation (Man). We celebrate that act to this day by symbolizing that journey at the start of every Olympic game (summer and winter).

Saturn, the roman counterpart to Cronus (Greek), was the god of agriculture and harvest. Upon the instructions of his mother (Terra/Gaea), he castrated his father and became the ruler of the universe, eventually bringing the golden age to Rome. We celebrate his rule each year with the Feast of Saturnalia which is held every year at the Winter Solstice. We even honor him each week by naming the seventh day after him (Saturday).

I presume you believe that no god(s) exist(s) other than Allah. Can you provide sufficient evidence to me that these gods do not or did not exist?

All the best,

Faysal

Well you miss the point, the evidence we are providing here is for our God, and not for any other Gods, thats simple enough? all of the arguments that have been advanced are for this one God, and not for chronos or gaia or whatever Diety.

Its very clear and simple, if you want to bring evidence of chronos as by his attributes well go ahead and provide some, among the things you will have to prove is that he ate his children and lived under the earth... Il let you do the rest.

Il be looking foward to hearing from that...
 
a couple of those were indeed fun to read, homer was a delight.. I fail to glean any moral/social/religious/after life meaning from them..

can you tell the difference between life as you live it and a movie? can you tell the difference between science and science fiction? can you tell the difference between real medicine and quackery? can you tell the difference between mythology and history? can you tell the difference between a book that claims to be from God and a Greek poem by a Greek poethttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod describing rural life?

I'll have to assume some level of intelligence here (I don't know why I like the benefit of the doubt) if you are going to engage in such a debate, carry yourself to a level, you only insult yourself with a wikpedia article and a half assed attempt to turn this around! (see my previous reply to aamir) in fact the note I closed with there, should be the one I close with here too!


all the best



I don’t think we will make any progress with these people; they seemed stuck in this weird world view, I think that it’s not so much because they don't believe in God but because they dislike him with all their hearts.
Atheism is Just an Emotional Crutch for these people
By denying God one can avoid having to face him. Atheism, then, offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the reality of life with God.

I guess there will always be people like this, for which there is no shortage of hellfire to accommodate.
 
Atheism is Just an Emotional Crutch for these people
By denying God one can avoid having to face him. Atheism, then, offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the reality of life with God.

No. The atheist just differs on which view is the emotional crutch; and suggests that belief in God anyway offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the realities of a life where no such entity exists.

As the two positions are obviously totally irreconcilable, there seems little point in pursuing the matter further. At least the theist can console him or herself with the thought that if they are wrong, they'll never know!
 
No. The atheist just differs on which view is the emotional crutch; and suggests that belief in God anyway offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the realities of a life where no such entity exists.

As the two positions are obviously totally irreconcilable, there seems little point in pursuing the matter further. At least the theist can console him or herself with the thought that if they are wrong, they'll never know!

On the contrary, belief in a God despite all the trials one goes through highlights that it is not the easy way out for a believer. Hence your conclusion is extremely fallacious. On the other hand, coming to a conclusion after suffering pain and trials that God does not exist is the easy way out. Even after coming to a conclusion, one does not get rid of those trials and then tries to justify it "thats how life is."
 
No. The atheist just differs on which view is the emotional crutch; and suggests that belief in God anyway offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the realities of a life where no such entity exists.

As the two positions are obviously totally irreconcilable, there seems little point in pursuing the matter further. At least the theist can console him or herself with the thought that if they are wrong, they'll never know!

You, on the other hand can also find solace in the tought that if you were wrong all along you'l know for sure! now you keep telling yourself that.
 
No. The atheist just differs on which view is the emotional crutch; and suggests that belief in God anyway offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the realities of a life where no such entity exists.

As the two positions are obviously totally irreconcilable, there seems little point in pursuing the matter further. At least the theist can console him or herself with the thought that if they are wrong, they'll never know!

Being a Buddhist, I assume you do not believe in a God/gods and the existence of soul. How do you, however, explain the plethora of gods and pantheon of gods that have existed in historical Buddhism? I can go into more details if you want me to. So were those gods/goddesses just humans with no supernatural powers that have been incorporated into the Buddhist religious literature? In order to attract followers of Hinduism? Or could be that when Hindus converted to Buddhism, they brought with them the incarnation and other baggage into Buddhist literature? Ashoka for example is one such king whose dominion resulted in many "conversions."
 
Being a Buddhist, I assume you do not believe in a God/gods and the existence of soul. How do you, however, explain the plethora of gods and pantheon of gods that have existed in historical Buddhism? I can go into more details if you want me to. So were those gods/goddesses just humans with no supernatural powers that have been incorporated into the Buddhist religious literature? In order to attract followers of Hinduism? Or could be that when Hindus converted to Buddhism, they brought with them the incarnation and other baggage into Buddhist literature? Ashoka for example is one such king whose dominion resulted in many "conversions."

I guess why he/she/it fancies itself a buddhist is because it thinks that it is more elegant to be labeled a buddhist rather than an atheist or etc.
 
I guess why he/she/it fancies itself a buddhist is because it thinks that it is more elegant to be labeled a buddhist rather than an atheist or etc.

Could be. But if he/she is looking for an easy way out, it would be atheism and not buddhism. Buddhists have a strict code by which they live their life. They cant enjoy their physical desires because they believe it will only lead to suffering. It is sort of a rebellion against nature itself. Nature dictates that human body needs xyz amount of food to properly function. These guys are not as extreme as Jains but if Buddhists had it their way, they would practice extreme renunciation too because desire for food leads to suffering. So they sort of follow the "middle path" as Gautama Buddha was born in the midst of two extreme philosophies: Hinduism and Jainism. He developed his own well known "middle path." Seeking mukti (as Hindus did), said the Buddha, also leads to suffering. Seeking impermanence when it does not exist is foolish, according to the Enlightened one.

I argue that even seeking nirvana is a desire. This desire itself is a path to suffering. Seeking and working to extinguish karmic energies is just another desire, very much like the desire to attain mukti. Hence, suffering is inevitable. A buddhist deludes himself into believing that he can overcome suffering by killing his karmic energies.
 
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Those gods have features of created beings (human-like especially when giving "birth?"). Hence they cannot be my gods or anyone's gods (even if someone deluded human believes that). There you go. Those "gods" could have existed in history as animals/humans, I wish I could care. They, very well, could not have existed. I do not care about providing evidence for their existence or not as it does not really matter. The evidence that they were not gods is dang clear though.

I wasn't asking for evidence that they do exist, I was aking for evidence that they don't exist. So far all I have heard is; "it is obvious", "it doesn't conform to what I believe", and "those gods are fictional". None of those statements amount to any evidence. By the way, comparisons to Harry Potter are quite offensive. Please don't call others deluded, that's not the way to move forward.

By the way, you do not need to tell us again and again that you are a murtad/mulhid/zindeeq. I, actually, do not like that you still retain the name of a Muslim culture while you flushed that Muslim belief down the drain. You might argue that Faisal is a secular name and has nothing to do with Islam. You might be right. But you are clearly trying to identify yourself with Muslim laity by using that name. Get rid of it.

If you like I could change the world view indicator (see left) from atheist to agnostic, or other. If that comforts you. It was the name I was given, I happen to like it, and I intend to keep it.

Very coherent and logical arguments by br Yahya and Sr Gossamer.

I must have missed it. Sr Gossamer is intent on proving that the same set of arguments apply for other gods but not hers. I haven't read a logical reason as to why. It's also odd that the other side keeps insisting on social values, religious practices, and moral pronouncements. This is interesting because I'm not aware as to how they would objectively critique those attributes of a religion. Would that be based on the personal beliefs or would that be based on Islamic teachings? Keeping in mind I didn't propose a religion, I proposed the existence of those gods.


Well you miss the point, the evidence we are providing here is for our God, and not for any other Gods, thats simple enough? all of the arguments that have been advanced are for this one God, and not for chronos or gaia or whatever Diety.

I haven't heard an argumnt on this thread that would would be less fruitful for proving the existence of any other god.


Its very clear and simple, if you want to bring evidence of chronos as by his attributes well go ahead and provide some, among the things you will have to prove is that he ate his children and lived under the earth... Il let you do the rest.

No sir, you've actually done all the work already by answering your own demands.

Like I said the absence of evidence is not proof of the non existence of God here or anything for that matter, rather it’s the evidence against a claim that is.

.... In an other example: If I am a stock broker and I give you a number of reasons to invest your money in the stock market, and these reasons seem unconvincing to you, it in no way follows that the stock market won’t go up... or that it’s going to go down! So the arguments for God’s existence could all fail and it would not follow that God does not exist.

Do you follow how this works?

I'm following. I'm all ears.


All the best,


Faysal
 
I wasn't asking for evidence that they do exist, I was aking for evidence that they don't exist. So far all I have heard is; "it is obvious", "it doesn't conform to what I believe", and "those gods are fictional". None of those statements amount to any evidence. By the way, comparisons to Harry Potter are quite offensive. Please don't call others deluded, that's not the way to move forward.



If you like I could change the world view indicator (see left) from atheist to agnostic, or other. If that comforts you. It was the name I was given, I happen to like it, and I intend to keep it.



I must have missed it. Sr Gossamer is intent on proving that the same set of arguments apply for other gods but not hers. I haven't read a logical reason as to why. It's also odd that the other side keeps insisting on social values, religious practices, and moral pronouncements. This is interesting because I'm not aware as to how they would objectively critique those attributes of a religion. Would that be based on the personal beliefs or would that be based on Islamic teachings? Keeping in mind I didn't propose a religion, I proposed the existence of those gods.




I haven't heard an argumnt on this thread that would would be less fruitful for proving the existence of any other god.




No sir, you've actually done all the work already by answering your own demands.



I'm following. I'm all ears.


All the best,


Faysal

Those gods do not exist because they are like created beings. That is evidence enough. Gods cannot be liked created things.

Lets take it one step ahead. Lets replace "gods" in that statement with "humans" and you can see clearly there is nothing godly about those actions. Whether they do not exist, how do I tell a person in a remote village in Punjab that Faysal the Zindeeq does not exist.
 
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This debate is so silly..
but amusing nonetheless..

how does the god of harvest get along with the sun god.. do they work in concert to bring about harvest? how does the water god get along with the fire god? or the war god get along with the god of love?
Do we have records of how well they get along?

23: 91 Never did God take unto Himself any offspring,52 nor has there ever been any deity side by side with Him: [for, had there been any,] lo! each deity would surely have stood apart [from the others] in whatever it had created,53 and they would surely have [tried to] overcome one another! Limitless in His glory is God, [far] above anything that men may devise by way of definition.54
 
Pygoscelis said:
And yet you provide no alternate means for making the point. I have to question if you understand it or if you are too blinded by being offended by the examples used to see it. If you can make it in some other way, as I said before, that'd be great. We can then show people the point and not offend them. Otherwise, theists will just have to grow a thicker skin.

The one needlessly striking blows against the skin is the offending party for doing so, not the one having the blows struck upon him for not having calloused enough skin not to mind it. And for the umpteenth time: it’s your job to decide how to phrase your own points, not mine, and just because I take issue with the way you’re doing it doesn’t mean that it’s my own duty to do your own work for you and provide the alternative and I've proved some point of yours if I refuse to do so. If you really can’t think of any other way on your own to make your point which does not do something involving, or tantamount to, comparing someone’s deeply held religious beliefs to children’s fairy tale creatures, you’re either too lacking in imagination or just plain too far past ordinary sensibilities and avoidance of callousness to be helped. I’m not going to repeat this again. I'm tired of having to say it.

Atheists have been told by theists for centuries now that they deserve eternal torture (hell) for not believing in these gods, something the theists clearly endorse (they say their God demands this and they stand by their God as just and good). Now theists can't handle having their gods compared to unicorns in order to make a point, a point which I'm not aware of another way to make?

Have I ever told you that? Stop thinking in this “us and them” mentality where we’re two monolithic groups with the whole representing the one. If you properly understood Islamic doctrine then you’d know that it teaches that God d-a-m-n-s people only over their intentions and what’s in their hearts (several ahadith) and does not punish them just for mere mistakes (Koran 2:286), rather than the literal fact of their outward belief, and therefore an atheist isn’t necessarily d-a-m-n-e-d. And that hell isn't necessarily eternal anyway. Not that it matters here to begin with since what you’re saying just boils down to the infantile defense of a child yelling, “WELL HE STARTED IT!”

tetsujin said:
Well you can, it just requires a detour. It's time for a role reversal. Muslims engaged in this thread can remain Muslims. I will play the role of a believer.

To Yahya Sulaiman, naidamar, justify, and other Muslims

I propose to you, that the god Chaos, creator of the universe, exists. She gave birth to Gaia, Eros, and Nyx. Gaia later gave birth to Uranus, who she eventually married, and through Tethys then Clymene we come to brothers Epimetheus and Prometheus who created the creatures of the earth. Prometheus being jealous and clever stole fire from Zeus to give it to his favorite creation (Man). We celebrate that act to this day by symbolizing that journey at the start of every Olympic game (summer and winter).

Saturn, the roman counterpart to Cronus (Greek), was the god of agriculture and harvest. Upon the instructions of his mother (Terra/Gaea), he castrated his father and became the ruler of the universe, eventually bringing the golden age to Rome. We celebrate his rule each year with the Feast of Saturnalia which is held every year at the Winter Solstice. We even honor him each week by naming the seventh day after him (Saturday).

I presume you believe that no god(s) exist(s) other than Allah. Can you provide sufficient evidence to me that these gods do not or did not exist

Unbelievable: you even admit to it being nothing more than a detour and you still expect me to indulge your evasive diversions. Last time I checked, this thread was about whether theism was true period, not any particular kind of theism. If you want to start a thread about polytheism vs. monotheism or the ancient Greco-Roman religious beliefs vs. ours or whatever, do it someplace else where it will be on topic and relevant.

I also suggest all of you who have responded to him since he made this post stop humoring him too in the meantime.

Trumble said:
“Atheism is Just an Emotional Crutch for these people
By denying God one can avoid having to face him. Atheism, then, offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the reality of life with God.”

No. The atheist just differs on which view is the emotional crutch; and suggests that belief in God anyway offers an easy way out for those unable to deal with the realities of a life where no such entity exists. As the two positions are obviously totally irreconcilable, there seems little point in pursuing the matter further. At least the theist can console him or herself with the thought that if they are wrong, they'll never know!

So one stereotype and presumption of virtual mind-reading is better than another? Your own certainly doesn’t apply to me. I need my religion as a crutch no more than I need a third elbow on my nose. I could definitely face life if I didn’t believe in God—and for a long time I did, and had little to no problem with it, and changed my mind about it only for intellectual reasons which very gradually dawned on me and which I subjected to careful consideration. In fact, you could say there are perhaps even now times when atheism would make for a better crutch for me in some ways, yet I still reject it out of self-honesty.

tetsujin said:
I've never seen nor heard a book make a claim [to be from God].

Then you’ve either never read the Koran or haven’t read it thoroughly enough. It repeatedly makes that claim.
 
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Unbelievable: you even admit to it being nothing more than a detour and you still expect me to indulge your evasive diversions. Last time I checked, this thread was about whether theism was true period, not any particular kind of theism. If you want to start a thread about polytheism vs. monotheism or the ancient Greco-Roman religious beliefs vs. ours or whatever, do it someplace else where it will be on topic and relevant.

de⋅tour  [dee-toor, di-toor]
–noun
1. a roundabout or circuitous way or course, esp. one used temporarily when the main route is closed.

The thread is still about whether theism is true. You’ve demonstrated that non-theists cannot make direct comparisons to your deity, and we can't present your angle to you (as it would appear to us) to try and share an analogous perspective?

Apparently the only thing evitable is a sincere conversation.

It doesn’t matter what deity is chosen, as long as it is possible to hold a belief about that deity it would serve as an example. The comparison isn’t for the sake of debasing or comparing Islam; it’s a matter of understanding belief itself and the claims made for god(s).

1) Muslims believe that there is no god but Allah. (a claim which needs to be proven, but I’d let you have that one for now)

2) Many theists seem to agree that the burden of proof is on the non-believer

3) I posit a list of gods (a short list of genealogy and significance), and asked theists to objectively disprove the existence of aforementioned gods.

Fair enough? Or does one necessarily need to evoke circular logic to defend revealed truths?

Then you’ve either never read the Koran or haven’t read it thoroughly enough. It repeatedly makes that claim.

I guess so...

Sorry. The Koran is a book. A book only has markings interpreted as words and phrases. You would be the one claiming they have any significance to yourself or others. The book is simply a medium of communication, and if you choose to believe the message was sent by god that’s your prerogative.

Yes, I’ve read it. The Koran by and large assumes god exists, it is a book written for believers and doesn’t spend much time trying to convince anyone of the truth.


All the best,

Faysal
 
Being a Buddhist, I assume you do not believe in a God/gods and the existence of soul.

You assume correctly.

How do you, however, explain the plethora of gods and pantheon of gods that have existed in historical Buddhism? I can go into more details if you want me to. So were those gods/goddesses just humans with no supernatural powers that have been incorporated into the Buddhist religious literature? In order to attract followers of Hinduism? Or could be that when Hindus converted to Buddhism, they brought with them the incarnation and other baggage into Buddhist literature? Ashoka for example is one such king whose dominion resulted in many "conversions."

'Historical Buddhism' covers an immense amound of ground, very little of which is remotely relevant to this thread. There is certainly some element of truth in "they brought with them the incarnation and other baggage into Buddhist literature", as it later would be for Tibetans, Chinese and others but 'literature' and the biliefs of individuals should not be confused with 'Buddhism', at least as far as there is one 'Buddhism'. The most important references to gods, particularly in the Tibetan tradition are principally metaphorical.

There is, though, one fundamental distinction between all and any gods and other supernatural beings that appear somewhere in the Buddhist tradition and the Abrahamic God, they are subject to exactly the same laws of cause and effect as we are. For the purposes of this debate it actually makes little difference if they are 'real' or not (just as with invisible unicorns!) unless you or I can prove they do not!

Could be. But if he/she is looking for an easy way out, it would be atheism and not buddhism. Buddhists have a strict code by which they live their life. They cant enjoy their physical desires because they believe it will only lead to suffering. It is sort of a rebellion against nature itself. Nature dictates that human body needs xyz amount of food to properly function. These guys are not as extreme as Jains but if Buddhists had it their way, they would practice extreme renunciation too because desire for food leads to suffering.

Not really. It is not enjoyment of physical pleasure that leads to suffering but clinging on to that enjoyment, hence desiring it and actively seeking more of it. In the same way clinging on to anything, all things being impermanent, must ultimately cause suffering, including attachment to an illusory permanent soul, 'self' or ego.

I fail to see why eating the right amount of food should be considered a 'rebellion against nature' while, presumably, gorging to excess is not! Buddhists generally do 'have it their way', there being nothing to stop them, and few see a need for the extreme austerity you suggest. The 'Middle Way' is just that.

I argue that even seeking nirvana is a desire. This desire itself is a path to suffering. Seeking and working to extinguish karmic energies is just another desire, very much like the desire to attain mukti.

You 'argue' it?! Every Buddhist knows it. It is indeed a significant and obvious trap, but it is one that Buddhists have always been perfectly well aware of. Such a desire is necessary as a motivator for 'right' action on the initial path to liberation but the Buddhist recognises it for the tool or prop that it is. Eventually it, too, must be discarded; a common metaphor being a row boat you use to get to the other shore. Once there, you have no further use for it so you let it just drift away, or burn it. Not that that is as easy as it sounds!

Hence, suffering is inevitable. A buddhist deludes himself into believing that he can overcome suffering by killing his karmic energies.

As the above will make clear, those conclusions are unjustified.

All of which is totally off topic, of course.
 
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Okay, presuming I cannot provide a legal or economic or social system based on their teachings, how does that weaken my argument?
You are trying to make a parable to other religions - you need to give me some information for that to actually work.

Also for the sake of argument, let’s assume my gods demand everything contradictory to whatever you currently choose to believe. I’ll give you free reign of this. How does that weaken my argument?
I need specifics. You haven't given me anything to go on but at the same time you want me to decide if this being exists - that's what would weaken your argument.

Still, let's go with what you have said: everything this deity wants is contradictory to Islamic teachings: that means I'm to act like a complete utter jerk to everyone I meet; I can commit all crimes without remorse; there is zero concept of self-control; the deity I have to worship has siblings; negotiations are discouraged - the sword is the only answer.

I'll stop there since by that time in real life I'd stop believing in that deity.

Lets be honest, I haven’t actually made an argument yet, I’ve only proposed these gods exist. I’m also not interested in defining a new religion. I’ve only proposed the existence of these gods.


All the best,

Faysal
You are trying to make a parable to a religion so you can show us religious folk what it is like to choose a path completely different to our current one. Except you haven't given me enough specifics to actually make this a valid parable. Since you were initially addressing muslims about this deity, it would make sense to benchmark your example based on Islam; hence I provided the ''list of demands'' in my last post.
 
^^ this topic is about God not which religion leads to God.. I don't understand the non-systematic approach.. Do you discuss the finite details of transamination deamniation reactions as per explanation of Katzung vs. wilcox before you sign up for the course? The Atheist game is semantics and creating doubt.. it is really never about the honest approach of why most folks believe in one thing or another.. it is a mind set which they have programmed in a particular fashion as to create the air that they have expend a thought into this.. given the articles we are linked back to are from wiki.. you can see how much expenditure has gone into it, and then waste time further on definitions.. Frankly I am not sure why this entire thread even exists? anymore than I understand why a bunch of heathens like to spend so much time on a religious forum?


:w:

 

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