Would like to understand you people..

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Uthmān;1264660 said:
:salamext:

You mean like this and this?

:wa:

That was quite a significant event, a Muslim lady got stabbed in the court while no one actually bothered to help her, that would catch the media's attention. Actually that is one example where the topic got slowly diverted into criticism of Islam, when sister Yvonne Ridley had a debate with Douglas Murray. There have been other events that should be reported too related hatred towards Muslims and Islam itself.

There is a distinction between fair and objective reporting on Islamophobia and terrorism. The media uses same repetitive words, terrorism and fundamentalists, which obviously strikes to me as brainwashing, its goal to create moral panic within the public. If the mainstream media reported cases of Islamophobia, it will have an impact on public perception on Muslims and Islam.
 
:sl:

it seems to me people are getting mixed up with preconcieved moral codes and state laws. The reason (or seems to me at least) this law has been prescribed is simply to stop people from converting and reverting based on their whims and desires and to discourage people from leaving the fold of Islam or disuniting the Muslim nation in general. What I have seen many people overlook so far is that the ramification, if the law wasn't in place, would be immense.

I always thought Islam was a thinking person's religion and I can see why some people would have a hard time accepting this ruling. Rather than getting flustered over details we should look at the big picture first.

(typing from phone)

Only Allah(swt) knows best.
 
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:sl:

it seems to me people are getting mixed up with preconcieved moral codes and state laws. The reason (or seems to me at least) this law has been prescribed is simply to stop people from converting and reverting based on their whims and desires.

From my non-Islamic perspecitve, this is exactly what it wrong with the law. If there truly is no compulsion in religion, then one should not be restricting one's ability to follow whims and desires to both come AND go. Islam appears quite happy to accept people who revert into on a whim, but unwilling to acknowledge that those who are in it may actually desire to convert out of it.
 
From my non-Islamic perspecitve, this is exactly what it wrong with the law. If there truly is no compulsion in religion, then one should not be restricting one's ability to follow whims and desires to both come AND go. Islam appears quite happy to accept people who revert into on a whim, but unwilling to acknowledge that those who are in it may actually desire to convert out of it.

If they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state will have no interest in prosecuting them. The state will not execute them if they go along with their daily lives. They can leave the country if they wish, no one will hunt them down.
 
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So, let me give a specific scenario. Hatice is a young girl from eastern Turkey. She was born to Muslim parents. And raised in a small community that was exclusively Muslim. Her father and brothers regular attend prayers at the local mosque. She has generally prayed at home with her mother, and though as a teenager she became less regular in keeping this practice, she always had a revival of personal devotion every year at Ramadan.

A few years ago, Hatice graduated high school and went off to study at university. She ended up studying in Istanbul, where she was exposed to all manner of different beliefs. Many of her professors were at best nominal Muslims. A few even were so bold to declare themselves as athiests. This led Hatice begin to ask questions about her faith, and even to in time doubt it. She found herself not really believing the Qur'an to be a revealed book. But she was so used to celebrating all of the traditions that she grew up with that she continued to celebrate Ramadan, even as she realized that she didn't believe in the very thing she was celebrating.

After graduation from university, she applied to grad school in London. There she completely quit saying prayers completely. She would dress as here peer group dressed, went to local pubs with them, even engaging in drinking games with the boys that she began to date. One day she woke up and wondered how it was that her life had changes so much from when she was younger. There was one girl that she was interning with that she felt close enough to that she was able to confide her internal conflict. That girl happened to be a buddhist. And this buddhist shared how she didn't believe in God or gods per se, but did find meaning in life from the teachings of the Buddha.

When Hatice returned home, that year, she no longer kept any of the practices of Islam. When asked why not, she said that she didn't believe in Islam or that Muhammed was the prophet. That she had found truth and meaning in the principles of Buddhism which she now kept and that she considered herself no longer a Muslim, but a Buddhist.

Her mother cries. Her father says that she was raised a Muslim and that she is still a Muslim. That she must be crazy, and been brainwashed, for no rationally thinking person would ever leave Islam once they knew the beauty and truth of it. He tries to have her committed to a mental hospital. But Hatice will have nothing of it. She gets into a big fight with her family, and tells them that they are the ones who have deluded themselves. She declares that she is not a Muslim. That she is old enough to make such decisions for herself. She is a Buddhist and she is going to remain a Buddhist. Further, she says that they should all realize what fools they are for believing in a God who doesn't even exist. And since he doesn't exist how could he send an angel with a recitation to anyone. Her brother tells her to shut up or he'll shut her up. They revert to their childish taunts of "make me" and other silly things. But that very night her brother, Ahmet, kills her, and claims it is an honor killing both because his sister had allowed herself to become sexually active, was so with non-Muslim men, and she had claimed to have herself left Islam.

Now my question is what, if anything, should the state do with regard to Ahmet?

Does the answer to that question change any if we move the story from eastern Turkey to Anwar province of Pakistan? Or to London?

Since no-one has so far answered your question let me attempt to.

So-called 'honour killings' are not sanctioned in Islam, not for fornication (for which the punishment is lashes not death anyway) or for apostasy (treasonous or otherwise). The individual is not permitted to take the law into his own hands.

As has already been mentioned by Muslim Women, the Prophet pbuh allowed people to leave the fold of Islam without having them hunted down and killed.

Also, I must mention that I find it very amusing when Christians try to distance themselves from the laws in the OT as if they were nothing to do with them or 'their' God. If you are a Christian you MUST accept that God had made those commands about executing blasphemers and so on. Whether they have been abrogated or not, they did apply at the time and people were executed according to God's commands, for the sin/crime of blasphemy.
 
Salaam/Peace

.... her brother, Ahmet, kills her, and claims it is an honor killing .....Now my question is what, if anything, should the state do with regard to Ahmet?


It has been mentioned in the forum many times that there is no honour killing in Islam. Neither Quran nor the hadith gives brother any right / power to kill sis if she left Islam or had any unethical affair.

It's up to Judges to decide whether she committed adultery and did anything harmful to Islam or Muslim Ummah and deserved punishment.

If one can't produce 4 witnesses against her , then she will be free of adultery charge and brother will get 80 lashes and his testimony won't be accepted ever.

For killing her and taking law by his own hand , he must get some punishment under any state law. I don't know of any country where it's officially allowed for brothers to kill sisters .
 
:sl:

.....There is a distinction between fair and objective reporting on Islamophobia and terrorism..

HONOR KILLINGS
IN AMERICA & ABROAD


...Accusations fly: "You Muslims, you treat your women like (fill in the blank-something negative of course)"

....Consider the following from the US Department of Justice, General Statistics:
  • Every 9 seconds, a woman is battered.


  • In 1992, the US Surgeon General ranked abuse by husbands and partners as the leading cause of injury to women aged 15-44.


  • Up to 50% of all homeless women and children in the United States are fleeing domestic violence.


  • Yet, there are nearly 3 times as many animal shelters in the United States as there are shelters for battered women. And lest we forget, this is happening in a country where the president has seen fit to violate his marriage vows in a most disgusting abuse of power and exploitation of a young woman. Yet polls reveal that he still maintains support from many Americans.
Given these facts, would anyone dare argue that there is something inherently wrong with these Judeo-Christian Americans? Or with American culture as such?

No, of course not. A history of abuse and violence in families, socioeconomic factors and jealousy on the part of husbands and boyfriends are just some of the explanations given for the abuse of women, especially wives and girlfriends in America.

Walk into a women's shelter that is not targeted to a specific ethnic or cultural group, and you will find women of all races, colors, and of course religions.

The abuse and killing of women for alleged honor crimes is not Islamic.

Nor is the abuse of women inherently as "American as apple pie".


Violence Against Women:

By Samana Siddiqui


http://www.soundvision.com/info/misc/honor.asp
 
When Muslims leave Islam, they get rewarded by the mass media. Most of these ex-Muslims have became very active after the event of 9/11 and gained mass publicity. Some received rewards for being brave. When a non-Muslim converts to Islam, the media could care less.

There has been a rise in hatred towards Muslims after 9/11, there has even been a video game of killing Muslims, I have not see the media report that.

People have nearly the same awareness when it comes down to Islam and terrorism. When it comes down to Islamophobia and hatred acts towards Muslims, the media either does not report it or when it does report it some how the topic gets diverted to criticism of Islam.

I know of Muslims, including myself, who left Islam and don't want to admit it because they are scared they will be killed. It's easy to blame crafty Zionist ploys and the biased media, but propaganda happens on both sides.

I was, once listening to a speech by a fairly respectable sheikh which tried to convince me that all Jews were untrustworthy for Heaven's sakes! For me there have been too many 'unhappy coincidences carried out by confused Muslims' to not question whether there is maybe something wrong on a doctrinal level.

No I have not recieved any pay-outs from government spies nor would I ever spy on any of my friends and family. It makes sense for Muslims to think that people leave Islam based on financial or worldy incentives and that the moral code of the apostates dissolves upon leaving Islam and they essentially become 'sell-outs'. Whilst that may be true for some people, many just want to stop lying to themselves.
 
I know of Muslims, including myself, who left Islam and don't want to admit it because they are scared they will be killed. It's easy to blame crafty Zionist ploys and the biased media, but propaganda happens on both sides.

These are two different issues. We are blaming the Zionists for the killings of the Palestinians.

I was, once listening to a speech by a fairly respectable sheikh which tried to convince me that all Jews were untrustworthy for Heaven's sakes! For me there have been too many 'unhappy coincidences carried out by confused Muslims' to not question whether there is maybe something wrong on a doctrinal level.

I'm not who that Sheikh was. Jews, Muslims and Christians believe in the same God. Muslims are supposed to maintain a good relationship with them.

No I have not recieved any pay-outs from government spies nor would I ever spy on any of my friends and family. It makes sense for Muslims to think that people leave Islam based on financial or worldy incentives and that the moral code of the apostates dissolves upon leaving Islam and they essentially become 'sell-outs'. Whilst that may be true for some people, many just want to stop lying to themselves.

Okay. Of course you will not be executed, you're not a threat to the Muslim community or towards an Islamic government. Just thought I should say that.
 
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I know of Muslims, including myself, who left Islam and don't want to admit it because they are scared they will be killed. It's easy to blame crafty Zionist ploys and the biased media, but propaganda happens on both sides.

I was, once listening to a speech by a fairly respectable sheikh which tried to convince me that all Jews were untrustworthy for Heaven's sakes! For me there have been too many 'unhappy coincidences carried out by confused Muslims' to not question whether there is maybe something wrong on a doctrinal level.

No I have not recieved any pay-outs from government spies nor would I ever spy on any of my friends and family. It makes sense for Muslims to think that people leave Islam based on financial or worldy incentives and that the moral code of the apostates dissolves upon leaving Islam and they essentially become 'sell-outs'. Whilst that may be true for some people, many just want to stop lying to themselves.

No offense, but at the beginning of the post you said you'd left Islam out of fear, but by the end you'd concluded you'd left to stop lying to yourself.
 
No offense, but at the beginning of the post you said you'd left Islam out of fear, but by the end you'd concluded you'd left to stop lying to yourself.

No I left it because I didn't want to lie to myself. I do not admit this to everyone and anyone I meet because I do not want my family to suffer in any way. I used the word 'fear' but it is actually more common sense now that I think about it.

Sorry for the confusion, I tend to do that alot!
 
there are nearly 3 times as many animal shelters in the United States as there are shelters for battered women.... Given these facts, would anyone dare argue that there is something inherently wrong with these Judeo-Christian Americans? Or with American culture as such?


I would!! Indeed I preach on such injustices and deficiencies in our culture, our laws, or standards for morality on a regular basis. But, I hardly think that the sins of one group of people stand as justification for another to be engaged in behavior that does not respect the rights of people to self determination -- and that's what the present question boils down to. You can certainly tell me that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones if you want, but what I'm trying to point out is that we all live in glass houses.


I appreciate your above comment:
For killing her and taking law by his own hand , he must get some punishment under any state law. I don't know of any country where it's officially allowed for brothers to kill sisters .
The problem is that I continue to hear stories of the state not doing what you say it should do and looking the other way.

Now, again, America certainly has a terrible history with regard to looking the other way when it comes to civil rights violations. Not saying that any one of us has clean hands. But, 30-40 years ago, these human rights violation stories while common in the US were rare in the Islamic world. However, now we are hearing them more and more coming out of countries with majority Muslim populations. I don't know if that's a product of improved communication, of some type of Islamaphobia, or if there really is an increase.

But whether the events are themselves increasing, or the level is the same and we are just hearing about things that used to go unreported, either way I find the reports disturbing. Disturbing because I think they are wrong and immoral actions to begin with. But also disturbing because they done in the name of Islam even while they seem to go against the heart of what Islam is about. Surely, that dichotomy has to be disturbing to Muslims as well. And, if it is, then why do governments turn a blind eye to them (or in some cases even participate)?
 
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Salaam/Peace


... why do governments turn a blind eye to them (or in some cases even participate)?


may be in some cases , Govt. don't want to increase tensions or challege Islamic groups. May be , they fear of loosing votes ....Don't know .

The good thing is sinners can never escape the punishment - if they manage to go unpunished in this world , never can they be safe on the final day .
 
But whether the events are themselves increasing, or the level is the same and we are just hearing about things that used to go unreported, either way I find the reports disturbing. Disturbing because I think they are wrong and immoral actions to begin with. But also disturbing because they done in the name of Islam even while they seem to go against the heart of what Islam is about. Surely, that dichotomy has to be disturbing to Muslims as well. And, if it is, then why do governments turn a blind eye to them (or in some cases even participate)?

I would say they were previously unreported. But consider also that many Muslim countries were also ruled by the British Empire up until half a century ago and therefore there is a sense of turmoil in those countries as a result as they find their own identities again. But regarding henieous actions in the name of Islam, well these groups were around since the early days of Islam, they were known as the kharijites.

What it comes down to is: can we blame every action we deem detestable and immoral on 'misguided' and 'illiterate' people acting out of post-colonial conflict mentality, or is there a deeper issue embedded in certain parts of Shariah law which catalyses this?
 
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What it comes down to is: can we blame every action we deem detestable and immoral on 'misguided' and 'illiterate' people acting out of post-colonial conflict mentality, or is there a deeper issue embedded in certain parts of Shariah law which catalyses this?

A very good question!!! But I suspect that it takes a level of internal self-analysis that while it may indeed be engaged in by some, even many, Muslims, is rather unusual to find on an internet forum of any type regardless of the faith or political background of the forum's constituents.
 
A very good question!!! But I suspect that it takes a level of internal self-analysis that while it may indeed be engaged in by some, even many, Muslims, is rather unusual to find on an internet forum of any type regardless of the faith or political background of the forum's constituents.

I agree. The problem is it requires a kind of study which will always be perceived as biased depending on who carries it out, and how would one begin to carry out such a study? I think a good example of how not to carry out such a study is the way the U.S. and British governments spy on Muslims through programmes like 'Prevent' which can only lead to a police-state kind of situation.

Each religion, each culture, for the most part, has had its share of atrocities committed by its leaders and extremists, whether they are inflicted upon the population of that group or another group, as you say, no one's hands are clean. But the separation of Church and State has absolved Christianity from Western politics in way that is impossible for Islam in the Muslim World, as there will always be that link no matter how tenuous it is and questions must be asked given the all-encompassing nature of Islam.
 

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