bible clearly says jesus was not crucified!!!

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You are right.
Christianity demands that God must die to be omnipotent.
That as twisted a logic as can be.

But twisted logic is required aplenty in christianity to account for the
1 + 1 + 1 = 1 concept of god.

And complete faith in twisted logic is demanded for christians to fill in gaps of many errors found in Bible.


It makes for good fairy tales.. god being a sheep or a lion or dead or a man..

Narnia anyone?

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all I can say is:

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 71:13] What aileth you that ye hope not toward God for dignity[/SIZE]


:w:
 
Blessings and peace be with you all,

Despite all our differences, the same God hears all our prayers.

Beyond a doubt the same God will know, the diverse scriptures he has placed in each of our hearts.

How do we each live with seemingly conflicting beliefs, should we still be kind to each other.

Every blessing to you all

Eric
 
24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

He did not die according to that verse "freeyin him from the agony of death", means u didnt die, well my main problem is why do you believe Jesus is God? when its never mentioned in the bible itself!
I disagree.
The verse does not say 'Freeing him from the agony of dying' (in which case I may agree with you) ... instead it says 'Freeing him from the agony of death', meaning the state of 'having died' and 'being dead'.

In other words, Jesus was resurrected from the state of being dead to being alive again.
 
I have to say, I am a little disappointed at the attitude I am seeing in this thread. The majority of the posts are nothing more that attacks on Christian beliefs, and insults. I think most of the Christians on this board are here to learn and be open minded. Most of us realize that there is a huge misrepresentation and want to know the truth about Islam. Repeatedly I have seen, "I believe, I don't believe, I don't understand..." There is no need to ridicule. There is SOOO much in common, but no one focuses on anything other than the differences, and I find that very sad.
Why don't we start a thread on the commonalities rather than trying to prove one another wrong or right?
 
It makes for good fairy tales.. god being a sheep or a lion or dead or a man..

Narnia anyone?





all I can say is:

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 71:13] What aileth you that ye hope not toward God for dignity[/SIZE]


:w:


It's funny you should say that, because CS Lewis was a devout Christian and some of his stories show Christian influence.

I disagree.
The verse does not say 'Freeing him from the agony of dying' (in which case I may agree with you) ... instead it says 'Freeing him from the agony of death', meaning the state of 'having died' and 'being dead'.

Exactly. That's essentially what I've been saying all along. As I said before, I think it's probably the poster's poor grasp of English more than anything else.
 
I have to say, I am a little disappointed at the attitude I am seeing in this thread. The majority of the posts are nothing more that attacks on Christian beliefs, and insults. I think most of the Christians on this board are here to learn and be open minded. Most of us realize that there is a huge misrepresentation and want to know the truth about Islam. Repeatedly I have seen, "I believe, I don't believe, I don't understand..." There is no need to ridicule. There is SOOO much in common, but no one focuses on anything other than the differences, and I find that very sad.
Why don't we start a thread on the commonalities rather than trying to prove one another wrong or right?

I beg to differ.
This is the Comparative Religion forum, so naturally it is a place to discuss other religions in relations to Islam, at lengths and in critical manner.
And I truly believe the majority here have done just that.

If you have questions about Islam, ask away, in appropriate threads and forums.
And if you think others have misunderstandings about christianity then you should partake in the discussions in constructive manner to clarify the matter, but do not expect others to treat you or the subjects with kid glove.
Trust me, if there were undue attacks, the admins or moderators would have taken away the posts or at least gave warnings. They are that vigilant.

Like for example, I understand that most christians think
Father + Holy Spirit + Jesus pbuh = God
And so as many others have simplified the concept using the mathematical model
1 + 1 + 1 = 1
But I was surprised that someone has just mentioned it was more like
1 x 1 x 1 = 1
which one do you think is more accurate?

Now, back on topic, I also understand that all christians believe Jesus pbuh was crucified and died to atone the sins of all humanity, that means the equations should be modified to:
1 + 1 + (-)1 = 2
Or
1 x 1 x (-)1 = -1
the negative sign is to account for the death of Jesus pbuh.

What do you think about this?
 
It's funny you should say that, because CS Lewis was a devout Christian and some of his stories show Christian influence.

.

Why is it funny? I watched Narnia and it has a very christian underpinning .. the lion dying, coming back to life.. like I said a religion that makes for good fairy tales for children.. God in lion form, santa clause down chimneys .. it is a shame they have to grow up with so many made up lies!


BTW I have no interest in converting any of you (if that is what you deem the purpose of the thread, then Muslims would be better off traveling to christian sites than starting threads here)

.. the only christian on this forum that I have utmost respect and concern for is Eric H.. and I do wish him better!


all the best!
 
Why is it funny? I watched Narnia and it has a very christian underpinning .. the lion dying, coming back to life.. like I said a religion that makes for good fairy tales for children.. God in lion form, santa clause down chimneys .. it is a shame they have to grow up with so many made up lies!


Oh bless... this is someone's idea of an argument! Watch out Gossamer, you may unwittingly achieve a conversion with such backed up, well thought out, unsarcastic, university lecturer level comments!

.. the only christian on this forum that I have utmost respect and concern for is Eric H.. and I do wish him better!

Oh darn- a stranger on an internet forum has no respect for me. It never ceases to amaze me how you pretend- heck, you may even believe- that we actually care whether or not we're on your birthday card list!
 
Oh bless... this is someone's idea of an argument! Watch out Gossamer, you may unwittingly achieve a conversion with such backed up, well thought out, unsarcastic, university lecturer level comments!

You can tell the difference between an argument and a comment? I wasn't offering you any arguments, as expressed clearly I couldn't careless if you worship Jesus or aton!
Oh darn- a stranger on an internet forum has no respect for me. It never ceases to amaze me how you pretend- heck, you may even believe- that we actually care whether or not we're on your birthday card list!

That is mildly comical man.. I joined a Muslim forum for the christian attention.. Try to herb up less, the more brain cells you waste the more puerile you get and I can't imagine you any lower!


all the best
 
You can tell the difference between an argument and a comment? I wasn't offering you any arguments, as expressed clearly I couldn't careless if you worship Jesus or aton!

Could've fooled me, your hostility towards Christians and Christianity in general would suggest otherwise.

That is mildly comical man.. I joined a Muslim forum for the christian attention.. Try to herb up less, the more brain cells you waste the more puerile you get and I can't imagine you any lower

Actually, I would've thought you were part of a Muslim forum because they're the only people who can withstand your constant 2nd grade standard insults, although I'm sure being respected by you, a stranger on the internet no less, makes it all worthwhile!
 
Could've fooled me, your hostility towards Christians and Christianity in general would suggest otherwise.

You are easily fooled because the level of a cesspool is where you like to hover!

Actually, I would've thought you were part of a Muslim forum because they're the only people who can withstand your constant 2nd grade standard insults, although I'm sure being respected by you, a stranger on the internet no less, makes it all worthwhile!
You must stand at a two year old tantrum then for you can never resist to bait me or focus your attention long enough to understand the subject matter to remain in keeping with the topic!

all the best
 
Members please bear in mind the following rule:

9. Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting somebody)
 
The doctrine of the Trinity — that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God — is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth. Although skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos.
Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18:
“For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; …I am the Lord; and there is none else.”
A New Testament example is James 2:19:
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.”
The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16:
“I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”
The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said:
“But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.”
Then there is the baptismal formula:
“baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
One name (God) — yet three names!
JESUS — That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
HOLY SPIRIT — Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come” (John 16:13).
TRI-UNITY — The teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
We “see” God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then “experience” their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.
Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be “out there,” everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism.
Similarly, men have always felt the need to “see” God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected “models” of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.
Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence “within.” But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spiritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.

His body really did die. The Roman soldiers made sure of that. They were experts at killing people.

Jesus Christ's physical body was 100-percent human, not just part human. Our bodies can die, and so could his. When we die, our physical body dies, but our soul and spirit remain. They are eternal; they never die. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His physical body died, but his inner self is eternal and did not die.
Is Jesus alive today?
Yes, he is. Thousands of people saw him alive again. The Bible is very clear; Jesus Christ's physical body is no longer dead. He is alive today. The Bible records 11 times when people saw him.
How can this be?
Jesus is more than a man. Although he is 100-percent human, he is also 100% God, the Creator of the universe. He is all-powerful. Although evil men killed his physical body, he easily had the power to restore life to his body again.

When his body came alive, he walked out of his tomb, completely healthy and strong.
As you can imagine, when this happened in the darkness, it really frightened the Roman soldiers who were guarding his tomb to keep people away. They were surprised and terrified! It was suddenly very obvious that Jesus was not merely a man. He is God, with power over life and death.
The people of Jerusalem certainly should have known this already. Jesus had proved it many times before. He raised many people from the dead. One was a young girl. Another was a man who had been dead and buried for days.
Here's something else that is wonderful. Did you know that the moment that Jesus Christ's physical body died, he brought many dead people to life in the city of Jerusalem? It's true! The people were alive and healthy again. Many people saw them in the streets and homes of that great city (Matthew 27:52-53), and were so glad to see them again. These were not ghosts (there are no such things). These were living, breathing people, seen by many. They had been dead, some perhaps for years, and now they were alive because of Jesus' great power![1]
What about your death or the death of someone you love?
Here is a fact that is even more amazing! Everyone who dies and is a true follower of Jesus Christ will experience this same, awesome, life-giving power. Jesus will give them their body back again—alive, heathy and strong—a glorious body. Won't that be wonderful! Millions and perhaps billions of people will be made alive again. Mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, grandparents—every person that is a true follower of Jesus will be alive again—forever.
For all of us who are Christians, death is not permanent. When our loved ones in Christ die, we can know for certain that we will see them alive again.
You can be one of those people! If you haven't already done so. Admit that you are a sinner that has broken the Law and deserves punishment and is lost without him. Accept his free gift of salvation and life. Become a faithful follower of Jesus Christ, the Lord and Giver of Life.

No offense to anyone just some more to add to the thread.
 
Fair enough.



So do I, which is why you'll never catch me creating a thread with a link to YouTube in a desperate bid to convert people of other faiths (or spreading the Good News/Word as other Christians would call it).



This is a problem. If God cannot die, He is not omnipotent as He does not have the power to kill Himself. If God can die, then He is not immortal.

:sl: my attempt or zakir's naik attempt? lol this is not me speaking. this is dr. zakir naik speaking. please dont give me the credit for his amazing work. this lecture is very famous loads of pple reverted after watching it so hes amazing attempt worked. though i was wanting to find the full lenght lecture of it but its very long to. btw what made u think this vid was especially for you? cos thats what your sounding like so get down off your high horse and stop belittling pple with your snide comments. your amazing at that.
 
Uthmān;1269076 said:
Members please bear in mind the following rule:

9. Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting somebody)

I apologise if I offended Gossamer, but as other members know, it's just banter!

Italianguy, I've never seen you post such a grammatically sound post. But yeah, it raised some good points, although this thread is solely about the claim the Bible doesn't say Jesus was crucified, an inane assertion reserved only for Islamic/other faith lecturers or people who are trying to convince themselves- as if they weren't convinced enough- that Christianity is a falsehood, and that they need Biblical evidence to prove so, despite not having read a single complete chapter of the Bible in their lives. This video falls into the former.

my attempt or zakir's naik attempt? lol this is not me speaking. this is dr. zakir naik speaking. please dont give me the credit for his amazing work. this lecture is very famous loads of pple reverted after watching it so hes amazing attempt worked. though i was wanting to find the full lenght lecture of it but its very long to. btw what made u think this vid was especially for you? cos thats what your sounding like so get down off your high horse and stop belittling pple with your snide comments. your amazing at that.

Dr Naik didn't create this thread, did he? And loads of people reverted after watching it, that suggests you created this thread to revert people, presumably Christians seeing as the topic is Jesus, so that implies the video you posted is aimed at me and people of my faith. Or was this thread created to entertain Muslims?
 
@ bro naidamar

mathematically it kinda works. but consider the triplets analogy. if each triplet is 1, then its kinda dumb to say 1*1*1 = 1 kid. 1 SET of kids sure.

and christians believe all three entities to be different each possesing different qualities. eg jesus a man - so even their numerical values should be different.

if you ask me its more like (1/3)+(1/3)+(1/3)=1

therefore each is a third God. hence contradiction - i made a mistake, jesus appears to be less of a god then the father (yh he says the father is superior to him) and if the holy ghost is less than jesus

maybe (6/10) + (3/10) (1+10) = god

astugfirullah
 
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John 19:16-42 NIV
The Crucifixion

16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified. So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. 17Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). 18Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
19Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. 21The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews."
22Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."
23When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24"Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it."
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."[a] So this is what the soldiers did.
25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home

The Death of Jesus
28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."[c]
The Burial of Jesus
38Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away. 39He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.[d] 40Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.



Hope this helps.
 
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