Man charged over attack on Danish cartoonist

[Joe98]

This is about slander. If the authored wanted to bring his opinions in speech there were a million other ways he could have done so.

But he chose to make a mockery of a person, instead of an intellectual debate about a religion.

I can see you have fallen for the propaganda. There have been attempts to make intellectual debates but Muslims have stopped them.

Movie makers have often made films as a way to stimulate debate on the subject. A film was made about the treatment of Muslim women under Islam. The issue could have been debated but the move maker was murdered by a Muslim.

Not long afterwards, a children’s book was being written intended to describe the life of Muhammad. Three illustrators were asked to illustrate the book. Each said “No!” because they don’t want to be murdered by a Muslim. No opportunity for intelligent debate.

In the world of professional illustrators word got around. Cartooners are illustrators too! A group decide to make some cartoons that would lead to intelligent debate.

The cartoons were published and for 12 months nobody noticed!

For 12 months nobody noticed!

Some imams noticed. They took the cartoons to the Middle East. They themselves made more cartoons, added them to the portfolio and shopped them around the Middle East trying to enrage Muslims.

It took a year and Muslims were finally enraged! (The cartoons done by the imams were quickly removed).

In all that time there was no intelligent debate on any of the individual cartoons.

-

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Joe

I can see you have fallen for the propaganda.

I could say the same for you.

There have been attempts to make intellectual debates but Muslims have stopped them. Movie makers have often made films as a way to stimulate debate on the subject. A film was made about the treatment of Muslim women under Islam. The issue could have been debated but the move maker was murdered by a Muslim.
Not long afterwards, a children’s book was being written intended to describe the life of Muhammad. Three illustrators were asked to illustrate the book. Each said “No!” because they don’t want to be murdered by a Muslim. No opportunity for intelligent debate.

Some muslims did. Well, millions of muslims are not responsible for the actions of a few. You're commiting the hasty generalisation fallacy. Also I'd reply as to Pygoscelis, do you think that two wrongs make a right?

In the world of professional illustrators word got around. Cartooners are illustrators too! A group decide to make some cartoons that would lead to intelligent debate.
The cartoons were published and for 12 months nobody noticed!
For 12 months nobody noticed!
Some imam noticed. They took the cartoons to the Middle East. They themselves made more cartoons, added them to the portfolio and shopped them around the Middle East trying to enrage Muslims.

So right and wrong is decided by how many people noticed? And how do you know if there were many people were hurt and offended but decided not to make a commotion? And if they did, does that mean that making such cartoons should be condoned?

It took a year and Muslims were finally enraged! (The cartoons done by the imams were quickly removed).
In all that time there was no intelligent debate on any of the individual cartoons.

Oh so now you're saying, we should have supplied the intelligent debate, that the cartoonist decided not to go for? So now it's our fault that this is a matter of slander rather then a matter of freedom of speech?

 

[Amadeus85]

Absolutely right. But don't most of these hate-speech crime laws also cover religion?

And, who has been convicted by these hate-speech laws exactly? Are there actually examples of Imam's or priests who were convicted for making fun of homos or condemning them to Hell? Or perhaps holy books censored because of it?

Ake Green was imprisoned in demototalitarian Sweden, Rocco Buttiglione has been unabled to become a high figure in EU thanx to his uncorrect views about marriage.

 

[Skavau]

Yup, humour and criticism is ok if it's against religion, but try to use it against homos or lesbians, then you commit a hate-speach crime.

What a justice. mg:

Please don't assume to speak for me. When have I ever expressed the sentiment that humour and criticism against homosexuality is a hate crime?

Are you commiting an irrelevant appeal to consequence? If for the sake of argument my viewpoint has an undesirable consequence that doesn't make it any less true.

I'm stating the consequences on free society that silencing more or less all criticism and humour would cause.

I strongly disagree. Newspapers have an ethical responsibility, they form the minds of the masses. If they don't live up to this responsibility, or even worse ignore it by choice; then perhaps there aught to be some form of compulsion keeping them in check.

You believe in a totalitarian state decreeing what sort of material is morally acceptable and unacceptable. That's fine. I do not believe in the validity of Big Brother.

Irrespectively, in a general secular democracy that leans towards human rights - no newspaper has (or ought not to) have any compulsion of any sort of any 'ethical responsibility' (which in this case refers to their 'responsibility' to not offending others).

There's every right to be offended when somebody does or says something offensive. Just because some choose to forfeit their right of being offended, and consider it acceptable, doesn't mean we have to follow them and lower our standards of what's acceptable as well. And as I mentioned already freedom of speech does not cover slander It never has under any law in any country.

Let me rephrase that. You can be offended. You are entitled to complain and state how horrible you think someone is. You are not entitled to censor them and punish them for your hurt feelings. You are not allowed to tell people to behave according to your accepted standards.

I never implied censor, again this is not about freedom of speech. It's not about the message, but rather about the form. If somebody has certain opinions about the prophet, and feels a need to publish them in a dependant paper, then let him write an argumented article, rather then resorting to slander.

Humour or offensive statements can effectively convey viewpoints better than massive essays could at times. I don't know of the cartoonists personal objective in producing the cartoons, but I suspect it has something to do with how much they value free speech.

I don't think it is, I think in most countries relatives can still sue. And if they can't then that's wrong. Just because a person no longer lives shouldn't make it allright to slander them.

Have you read any newspaper, tabloid or broadsheet lately? Have you watched any news program? Observed any books? There are ****ing criticisms and observations on all sorts of public figures that your hyper-offensive totalitarian ideals would nullify.

I believe slander, by the way ought not in almost all instances be any legal matter whatsoever. It should only extend to hatred campaigns based on slander or of which slander is a byproduct - but that would not be a free-speech issue.

 

[Ramadhan]

I can not feel sympathy for a person for his beliefs being attacked when his beliefs include the belief that those who don't hold his beliefs are justly tortured for all eternity.

And to then talk about slander and dimpomacy? Dimplomacy after you declare the other to be "evil"? The double standard simply doesn't leave any opening for it.

Don't you find it moronic that you do not believe heaven and hell exist, and yet you are so offended that others hold such view?

The cartoons are real and deemed extremely offensive by muslims.
While for you hell is not real, therefore you should feel no emotion about it.

 

[Ramadhan]

Muhammad’s instruction was that there should be no statues or paintings of him because muslims might start to worship him and muslims are only supposed to worship god.

That instruction has been ignored!

If I make fun of you’re god nobody cares. But if I make fun of Muhammad, I am in big trouble!

-

HUH?

how come the instruction is ignored?

Your sentences above does not make sense at all.

 

[Ramadhan]

And yes, of course comedy can lack diplomacy. That's not really its role. Also, I'm curious what link you're putting here between diplomacy and blasphemy here.

Have you even seen those cartoons?
And you think there were just forms of comedy, nothing more nothing less?

 

[Ramadhan]

If that is so, do you believe religious texts or speech should be held to those some standards? If not, why not? In your opinion is, say, the Qu'ran not slanderous and undiplomatic towards unbelievers? In my opinion it is.

Have you read the Qur'an in its entirety and understood its meanings, instead of reading bits and pieces about hell for the disbelievers?

 

[Ramadhan]

The eggshells surrounding religion need to be crushed. The wall of sensitivity needs to be brought down. It should not be any more taboo to criticize religious ideologies than to criticize political or economic ideologies. Making fun of Christianity should be no more taboo than making fun of Capitalism. Making fun of Islam should be no more taboo than making fun of Democracy.

Capitalism and Democracy are not religions, Islam and Christianity are. Therein lies a big difference.
But of course, for atheists who are against religions, they would do their utmost to undermine religions.

 

[Ramadhan]

The newspaper would be then making claims about real people that are still alive and then be liable for slander.

LOL.
So you have the right to define where the boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not, and deny others to do so.

I know you consider your prophet to be a real and beloved person and the most important person to ever live, but there's no reason for a secular state to recognise this.

I seriously question whether your intellect/honesty is sound.

 

[Ramadhan]

Not long afterwards, a children’s book was being written intended to describe the life of Muhammad. Three illustrators were asked to illustrate the book. Each said “No!” because they don’t want to be murdered by a Muslim. No opportunity for intelligent debate.

In the world of professional illustrators word got around. Cartooners are illustrators too! A group decide to make some cartoons that would lead to intelligent debate.

-

First, it is against Islamic teaching to kill anyone for reasons and conditions not established in the Sharia. So make no mistake that Islam condones it.

Second, you keep mouthing up "intelligent debate".
What kind of "intelligent" and what kind of "debate" is going to be achieved by drawing offensive pictures of the Prophet PBUH?
If you consider drawing those flaming cartoons as being "intelligent", then I seriously question your own capacity to reason.

 

[Italianguy]

I'm not sure i understand Atheism? Clearly you believe in something? It is mans inherent God given......let me say that again more cleary for ya there buddy ....GOD GIVEN!! need to believe in Him. A want to praise Him, and your duty to glorify Him!

You atheist believe so indepth that religion is wrong and that you must voice your OPINION, that it comes off as a system of belief.

Every human has been given....BY GOD, free will, so you do have the right to not believe.....I will pray that one day you do realize your beliefs are wrong. One day after you stop spending so much time denying that there is a God you will find peace in believing in God. You will take the time to learn. If you have no belief in Him....Why are you here???:hmm: why waste your time talking to people who do believe in God.

One other thing. I notice some of our Atheist friends seem to have forgotten proper etiquette and respect in general. Wether or Not you believe in God, you will show respect in your posts by capitalizing His name, in every form! His,He, God and any of the prophets names....Christian and Muslim.

I find it perplexing how an atheist can lead a life of emptiness, unGodliness, Angst, and hatred.?? I was told by an atheist once that "religion is so hard to believe in and so much work that it leaves you feeling, empty and depressed" .....I can't imagine what it would be like without God....empty, depressing, and scary...sounds like a life wasted?

But it's ok keep yourself busy complaining about life and God, it will lead you somewhere i'm sure......I'd pack some extra spf lotion and chaffing creamhew

Ok i'm done sorryimsad

I will be praying for you, God be with you brother......And i didn't just waste my breath, I wold give my life just to give you a glimpse of the happiness that you can experience living a life for God.

And about the cartoonist, That sux:heated: I will pray for them.....it's sad someone would try to take a life that is not his to takeimsad. Can't say I feel sorry for the killer though.

 

[★мαячαн★]

Don't you find it moronic that you do not believe heaven and hell exist, and yet you are so offended that others hold such view?

The cartoons are real and deemed extremely offensive by muslims.
While for you hell is not real, therefore you should feel no emotion about it.

I don't think thats approapriate at all bro. I'm a muslim too and just because some other brothers / sisters in humanity are athiests that does not mean they have no emotioons! They are humans also, remember that and Inshallah none of us will become ignorant with knowledge.

ALso Muslims may be offended or hurt by those images definately, like i was for sure. but do they love the prophet so much that they decide to go against all that he taught about peace, and being tolerant and being gentle with people. no we should not be trying to justify the actions of these people. I am a Muslim in the west and it seems due to these "islamic" acts of "muslims" we are all tarnished with a bad brush. And i feel that is not right. How many times was our beloved prophet taunted by others, and he simply ignored them or moved away, he never let the satan get to him! and by us doing the opposite of what we taught we are definately showing our love? what a weird way of doing so!

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't think thats approapriate at all bro. I'm a muslim too and just because some other brothers / sisters in humanity are athiests that does not mean they have no emotioons! They are humans also, remember that and Inshallah none of us will become ignorant with knowledge.

Atheists claim they do not believe in the hereafter, including heaven and hell.
If they don't hold that believe, why should they get upset that we muslims believe about the concept of hell and heaven?
Except if deep down they acknowledge it as a possibility.

ALso Muslims may be offended or hurt by those images definately, like i was for sure. but do they love the prophet so much that they decide to go against all that he taught about peace, and being tolerant and being gentle with people. no we should not be trying to justify the actions of these people. I am a Muslim in the west and it seems due to these "islamic" acts of "muslims" we are all tarnished with a bad brush. And i feel that is not right. How many times was our beloved prophet taunted by others, and he simply ignored them or moved away, he never let the satan get to him! and by us doing the opposite of what we taught we are definately showing our love? what a weird way of doing so!

AFAIK no one here in these forums try to justify the act of the attacker.
However, we must defend the dignity of our prophet SAW.
I think there was an example by Fatimah r.a. who defended prophet SAW when the quraish disbelievers threw goat intestines at him, while Rasulullah SAW prayed in front of Kabah and then Rasulullah asked Allah SWT to give equal punishment for those people.
I'm sure there were other examples by other shahaba who defended rasulullah honor and dignity.

 

[★мαячαн★]

defending honour is one thing... but doing it by disobeying what he taught can not be coorect surely?

did fatimah (ra) try to kill someone while trying to do this... astaghfirullahh.

 

[Supreme]

I'm not sure i understand Atheism? Clearly you believe in something? It is mans inherent God given......let me say that again more cleary for ya there buddy ....GOD GIVEN!! need to believe in Him. A want to praise Him, and your duty to glorify Him!

You atheist believe so indepth that religion is wrong and that you must voice your OPINION, that it comes off as a system of belief.

Every human has been given....BY GOD, free will, so you do have the right to not believe.....I will pray that one day you do realize your beliefs are wrong. One day after you stop spending so much time denying that there is a God you will find peace in believing in God. You will take the time to learn. If you have no belief in Him....Why are you here???:hmm: why waste your time talking to people who do believe in God.

One other thing. I notice some of our Atheist friends seem to have forgotten proper etiquette and respect in general. Wether or Not you believe in God, you will show respect in your posts by capitalizing His name, in every form! His,He, God and any of the prophets names....Christian and Muslim.

I find it perplexing how an atheist can lead a life of emptiness, unGodliness, Angst, and hatred.?? I was told by an atheist once that "religion is so hard to believe in and so much work that it leaves you feeling, empty and depressed" .....I can't imagine what it would be like without God....empty, depressing, and scary...sounds like a life wasted?

But it's ok keep yourself busy complaining about life and God, it will lead you somewhere i'm sure......I'd pack some extra spf lotion and chaffing creamhew

Ok i'm done sorryimsad

I will be praying for you, God be with you brother......And i didn't just waste my breath, I wold give my life just to give you a glimpse of the happiness that you can experience living a life for God.

And about the cartoonist, That sux:heated: I will pray for them.....it's sad someone would try to take a life that is not his to takeimsad. Can't say I feel sorry for the killer though.

I've always found atheists who can't concieve ideas unanimously shared by theists rather ignorant, but then atheism itself is the concept that there's nobody higher than you, no being greater than yourself. Which is rather ignorant.

 

[Supreme]

Atheists claim they do not believe in the hereafter, including heaven and hell.
If they don't hold that believe, why should they get upset that we muslims believe about the concept of hell and heaven?
Except if deep down they acknowledge it as a possibility.

I've found that odd too. If someone were to come to me and claimed a lepricaun would kill me when I didn't believe in lepricauns, I wouldn't be offended by it. The same goes for Heaven and Hell. If you don't believe in them, don't get upset if someone claims you're heading to an afterlife you believe to be false.

 

[Maryan0]

defending honour is one thing... but doing it by disobeying what he taught can not be coorect surely?

did fatimah (ra) try to kill someone while trying to do this... astaghfirullahh.

The brother did not condone the actions of the attacker you should read the post again.

Drawing the most holy figure in islam with a bomb on his head was obviously meant to provoke muslims and the cartoonist's intention was clearly to incite hatred I dont see how freedom of speech changes anything in that regard. Even if you do not recognize the holiness of the prophet muhammed it still does not validate childishly maligning him in the form of a cartoon. Like others have said if intelligent debate was what the cartoonist was aiming for he fell short I really do not see what an offensive and inflamatory cartoon accomplishes. We muslims will not accept slander against our prophet under the pretentious guise of freedom of speech and no amount of arguing will change that fact.

 

[Skavau]

Don't you find it moronic that you do not believe heaven and hell exist, and yet you are so offended that others hold such view?

I can only speak for myself here, but I do not find the belief that others hold regarding hell as offensive - but I do find it unethical. And I do understand the possibility that some being told that you're going to hell, or that all non-muslims/non-christians are going to hell could find it a tiny bit offensive. It doesn't matter whether you believe it to be true. Threats of eternal torture can be construed as personal attacks.

Just like how arguments against specific religions are at times considered by their adherents as offensive and insulting.

The cartoons are real and deemed extremely offensive by muslims.
While for you hell is not real, therefore you should feel no emotion about it.

I understand that you find it offensive. But being offended is no grounds for censorship.

Capitalism and Democracy are not religions, Islam and Christianity are. Therein lies a big difference.
But of course, for atheists who are against religions, they would do their utmost to undermine religions.

You're quite right that Capitalism and Democracy are not religions. Pygo's point was that we need offer no religious belief any more protection against mockery, insult or criticism than we do to the aforementioned ideologies.

LOL.
So you have the right to define where the boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not, and deny others to do so.

Everyone does. This is how laws began to exist. We began establishing boundaries.

I seriously question whether your intellect/honesty is sound.

You must be referring to my sentence structure. I know Muhammad is a historical figure.

 

[جوري]

I can only speak for myself here, but I do not find the belief that others hold regarding hell as offensive - but I do find it unethical. And I do understand the possibility that some being told that you're going to hell, or that all non-muslims/non-christians are going to hell could find it a tiny bit offensive. It doesn't matter whether you believe it to be true. Threats of eternal torture can be construed as personal attacks.

Isn't hell some imaginary place that doesn't exist per you? How can that be offensive? I don't see how you can equate that with offensive 'Name specific' cartoons that exist in the here and now!

I understand that you find it offensive. But being offended is no grounds for censorship.

Hope you find that equally applicable to Muslims marching in the grounds where fallen British turds are being paraded as heroes!



all the best