bible clearly says jesus was not crucified!!!

[mkh4JC]

Also, I've already shown through the book of Revelation that we as Christians when the Rapture happens that we will be able to eat, ie the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[Predator]

It didn't mean any spirit. The disciples were affrighted because they thought it was an evil spirit. .

So by your logic ,if Jesus is possesed by an evil spirit , Jesus would have behaved in an evil manner but that's not what happened. There were terrified because they thought he was a Ghost ( he had risen from the dead) because they thought that he was killed on the cross

 

[mkh4JC]

So by your logic ,if Jesus is possesed by an evil spirit , Jesus would have behaved in an evil manner but that's not what happened. There were terrified because they though he was a Ghost ( he had risen from the dead) because they thought that he was killed on the cross

He did die on the cross, and the Bible teaches this. To say that it doesn't, is to flat out just to deny what scripture says.

'And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.' St. John 20: 26-29.

He says, blessed are they that have not seen, and yet believed. Believed what? That he died and rose again.

 

[Predator]

Believed what?

Believed that he fulfilled the miracle of Jonah which he said he would fulfill , Jonah was alive after coming out from the whales belly and so has Jesus is alive after coming from the earth belly ,which is why his body still has flesh and bones like a natural body and he can be touched


If he was dead and raised from the dead or resurrected , he would have had a spiritual body and he would say " I am a spirit and have no flesh and bones , thou cant touch me and i cant eat food "

 

[mkh4JC]

Believed that he fulfilled the miracle of Jonah which he said he would fulfill , Jonah was alive after coming out from the whales belly and so has Jesus is alive after coming from the earth belly ,which is why his body still has flesh and bones like a natural body and he can be touched


If he was dead and raised from the dead or resurrected , he would have had a spiritual body and he would say " I am a spirit and have no flesh and bones , thou cant touch me and i cant eat food "

Well, I've already shown through quotes from the book of Revelation that Christians who are resurrected during the Rapture of the Church will be able to eat:

Revelation 19:7-9
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

As the Bible says, there is a natural body (fallen, corrupt, current bodies we possesses here on earth) and there is a spiritual body (uncorrupted, supernatural bodies in heaven). Those who die in Christ don't have their resurrected bodies yet though, so that would probably explain that verse you mentioned.

 

[Al-manar]

The miracle of Jonah was that when we expected him to be dead in the belly of the whatever ( because of suffocation and heat , 3 days without food and water) , he came out alive and so similarly when Jesus was expected to be dead in the earth , he would comes out alive and fulfil the miracle

Dear Airforce....

There is Arabic proverb


لكل فارس كبوة ... ولكل عالم هفوة

for every knight a fall, for every scholar an error... (may be a native English speaker would provide A similar proverb in better English?)

I find such proverb related to the work you quotin.....

every great scholar once would err.... and I think that Ahmed Deedat followed nonQuranic methodology in the work you use right now...


Ahmed Deedat(may Allah bless his soul and reward him for his huge efforts for Islam) has approached the issue of crucifiction wrongly:

while he correctly followed the quranic test of a book claimed to be divine

Holy Quran:4:82
Do they not ponder on the Qur'an?Had it been from other than Allah,they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.


he wrote in accordance:

No I dare humbly claim that such unattested documents would be thrown out of hand, in any Court-of-Law, in any civilised country, in just two minutes.

yet he ignores such advice and continue quoting the narratives ,arguing as if the narratives to be accepted ,it is just the christians misunderstood it !!

He argues that Jesus was crucified ,injured,stayed in tomb days ,recovered then back to his disciples !!

Is that Quranic?

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157


so which should we believe the Quran, or a theory based on speculations?!




I would just quote one piece of such work which based on nonQuranic theory,to show what it would lead to:

Then why does Jesus need to belabour the point? It is simply because the disciples were thinking that he had returned from the dead, that he had been resurrected, and if so he would be in a spiritual form — A SPIRIT! And Jesus is telling them that he is NOT that — he is not a spirit — NOT resurrected!

So we should trust the narratives?

if so then Jesus is said to be claimed that he rose from the dead in the immediate context:


Luke 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." 40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence. 44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, .


Have you seen? If one won't follow the Quran in his arguments ,he would go nowhere .....


I don't believe that Jesus was crucified ,neither resurrected ,why?

not because the bible says that Jesus wasn't crucified (Zakir naik's approach) nor because the bible says that he was crucified but not died on the cross(Deedat's approach).....,but because the source from which the story is told has failed the test of inerrancy......

eg, to harmonize the resurrection has been and will be the impossible dream for the christian apologetics.... they invented theory after theory in order to harmonize the story but no way......

another example to put serious doubts on such narratives ,I have just typed.....

This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day


where is it written that the promised Jewish messiah will be resurrected from the dead AFTER THREE DAYS?


Regards

 

[Al-manar]

LOL ,as Gosammer said in the other thread we are going to have fun wiping the floor with you!

Take it easy with the guy ,dear Muslims :statisfie

we shouldn't offend him ,but to show him with proofs where he erred...
Iwas going to show him a liguestic analysis of the verse ,in such thread but it was closed....


anyway plz tolerate the guy's ignorance of Arabic and don't mock him just cause he misinterpreted a verse.....

peace for all

 

[جوري]

Surah Al-Fajr 1 CONSIDER the daybreak 2 and the ten nights!1 3 Consider the multiple and the One!2 4 Consider the night as it runs its course!3 5 Considering all this - could there be, to anyone endowed with reason, a [more] solemn evidence of the truth?4 6 ART THOU NOT aware of how thy Sustainer has dealt with [the tribe of] 'Ad,5 7 [the people of] Iram the many-pillared, 8 the like of whom has never been reared in all the land? - 9 and with [the tribe of] Thamud,6 who hollowed out rocks in the valley? - 10 and with Pharaoh of the [many] tent-poles?7 11 [It was they] who transgressed all bounds of equity all over their lands, 12 and brought about great corruption therein: 13 and therefore thy Sustainer let loose upon them a scourge of suffering: 14 for, verily, thy Sustainer is ever on the watch! 15 BUT AS FOR man,8 whenever his Sustainer tries him by His generosity and by letting him enjoy a life of ease, he says, "My Sustainer has been [justly] generous towards me";9 16 whereas, whenever He tries him by straitening his means of livelihood, he says, "My Sustainer has disgraced me!"10 17 But nay, nay, [O men, consider all that you do and fail to do:] you are not generous towards the orphan, 18 and you do not urge one another to feed the needy,11 19 and you devour the inheritance [of others] with devouring greed, 20 and you love wealth with boundless love! 21 Nay, but [how will you fare on Judgment Day,] when the earth is crushed with crushing upon crushing, 22 and [the majesty of] thy Sustainer stands revealed,12 as well as [the true nature of] the angels, rank upon rank? 23 And on that Day hell will be brought [within sight]; on that Day man will remember [all that he did and failed to do]: but what will that remembrance avail him? 24 He will say, "Oh, would that I had provided beforehand for my life [to come]!" 25 For, none can make suffer as He will make suffer [the sinners] on that Day, 26 and none can bind with bonds like His.13 27 [But unto the righteous God will say,] "O thou human being that hast attained to inner peace! 28 Return thou unto thy Sustainer, well-pleased [and] pleasing [Him]: 29 enter, then, together with My [other true] servants - 30 yea, enter thou My paradise!" 1 The "daybreak" (fajr) apparently symbolises man's spiritual awakening; hence, the "ten nights" is an allusion to the last third of the month of Ramadan, in the year 13 before the hijrah, during which Muhammad received his first revelation (see introductory note to surah {96}) and was thus enabled to contribute to mankind's spiritual awakening. 2 Lit., "the even and the odd" or "the one": i.e., the multiplicity of creation as contrasted with the oneness and uniqueness of the Creator (Baghawi, on the authority of Sa'id ibn al-Khudri, as well as Tabari in one of his alternative interpretations of the above phrase). The concept of the "even number" implies the existence of more than one of the same kind: in other words, it signifies every thing that has a counterpart or counterparts and, hence, a definite relationship with other things (cf. the term azwaj in 36:36, referring to the polarity evident in all creation). As against this, the term al-watr - or, in the more common (Najdi) spelling, al-witr - primarily denotes "that which is single" or "one" and is, hence, one of the designations given to God - since "there is nothing that could be compared with Him" (112:4) and "nothing like unto Him" (42:11). 3 An allusion to the night of spiritual darkness which is bound to "run its course" - i.e., to disappear - as soon as man becomes truly conscious of God. 4 Lit., "a [more] solemn affirmation" (qasam): i.e., a convincing evidence of the existence and oneness of God. 5 See {7:65-72}, and particularly the second half of note [48] on 7:65. Iram, mentioned in the next verse, seems to have been the name of their legendary capital, now covered by the sands of the desert of Al-Ahqaf. 6 See surah {7}, notes [56] and [59]. The "valley" referred to in the sequence is the Wadi 'l-Qura, situated north of Medina on the ancient caravan route from South Arabia to Syria. 7 For an explanation of this epithet, see surah {38}, note [17]. 8 The above phrase, introduced by the particle fa-amma ("But as for..."), obviously connects with the reference to the "solemn evidence of the truth" in verse {5} - implying that man does not, as a rule, bethink himself of the hereafter, being concerned only with this world and what promises to be of immediate advantage to him (Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi). 9 I.e., he regards God's bounty as something due to him (Razi). 10 I.e., he regards the absence or loss of affluence not as a trial, but as an evidence of divine "injustice" - which, in its turn, may lead to a denial of God's existence. 11 I.e., "you feel no urge to feed the needy" (cf. 107:3). 12 Lit., "[when] thy Sustainer comes", which almost all of the classical commentators understand as the revelation (in the abstract sense of this word) of God's transcendental majesty and the manifestation of His judgment. 13 See note [7] on {73:12-13}.

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMVdMhmDCpg[/MEDIA]

By the way.. where is A'ad and Thamud mentioned in your bible idolater?

What is that? not there? yeah.. I thought so!

why don't you scurry to your cesspool and see if you can concoct some more manure to feed on!

all the best
​

 

[Predator]

He argues that Jesus was crucified ,injured,stayed in tomb days ,recovered then back to his disciples !!

Yeah , but He was trying to prove it from the Biblical perspective and with Jesus words rather than the Quran because the Christians dont believe in the below verse nor the quran

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

And the next verse is that , it was made to appear to them so - wa laakin shubiha lahum , in other words ,they saw him crucified on the cross

I don't believe that Jesus was crucified ,neither resurrected ,why?

not because the bible says that Jesus wasn't crucified (Zakir naik's approach) nor because the bible says that he was crucified but not died on the cross(Deedat's approach).....,but because the source from which the story is told has failed the test of inerrancy.....

So is this what you believe happened regarding "But it was made to appear to them so " ,that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place

The time was near at hand and Taynoos or Judas as he is known in the Bible, accompanied by the Roman soldiers made his way to the place where Jesus was offering his prayer. Judas instructed the soldiers to remain outside and entered the room alone. However, before Tatynoos entered the room, Allah in His Mercy, sent the Arch Angel Gabriel to take Jesus up through the skylight to the heavens so when Tatynoos entered the room, the room was empty.

When Judas entered the room his appearance was miraculously transformed to resemble that of Jesus, however, he was unaware of his transformation and when he couldn't find Jesus he went outside to tell the soldiers he was not there and was set upon. Many of the soldiers had seen and heard Prophet Jesus preach, and had no doubt that Judas was actually Jesus. Judas protested violently and a state of confusion ensued whereupon several soldiers entered and searched the room for Judas but they were unable to find him. . Despite Judas' protest that he was not Jesus he was taken away and later crucified in place of Prophet Jesus, praise be to Allah.

 

[Grace Seeker]

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

Airforce seems to hold (in some of his previous posts) that to say that one is crucified is to say that he is actually killed by the process of hanging on a cross. Do you agree with that definition? Or... would you allow, as apparently Deedat does, that to say that one is crucified means that they have been put on a cross, but that such a person could be taken down from the cross before death and while they would be alive (never dead) that it could still correctly be said of them that they were crucified?

Please note: I'm asking here only about your definition of the term "crucified" and not what happened with regard to Jesus in particular.

 

[Ramadhan]

Airforce seems to hold (in some of his previous posts) that to say that one is crucified is to say that he is actually killed by the process of hanging on a cross. Do you agree with that definition? Or... would you allow, as apparently Deedat does, that to say that one is crucified means that they have been put on a cross, but that such a person could be taken down from the cross before death and while they would be alive (never dead) that it could still correctly be said of them that they were crucified?

Please note: I'm asking here only about your definition of the term "crucified" and not what happened with regard to Jesus in particular.

I could see (and any other sane person would also be to do so) that Airforce was trying to show that there are contradictions in the bible about the matter of the crucifixion/death/resurrection of Jesus pbuh by using the bible own accounts, and to show that the bible gives indications that Jesus pbuh did not die and did not get resurrected.

As for muslims, it is very clear what we believe in, as it is explained without a doubt in the Qur'an.

It is the bible which is confused with itself.

 

[Grace Seeker]

and any other sane person would also be to do so

Are you directing this comment at any particular person or group of people on this forum?

 

[Grace Seeker]

"But it was made to appear to them so " ,that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place

Is this what you believe, that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place? If this is your belief, on what do you basis it? I don't believe you will find this anywhere in the Qur'an.

 

[Ramadhan]

Is this what you believe, that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place? If this is your belief, on what do you basis it? I don't believe you will find this anywhere in the Qur'an.

This is what I believe:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

 

[Grace Seeker]

This is what I believe:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

Yes, naidamar, I suspected you were willing to stick to what the Qur'an actually says. That question was for Airforce. He seems to suggest that he believes something beyond simply that which is taught in the Qur'an. A most interesting position for one who criticizes the "corruption" of Christianity because he believes it to teach other things than what the prophet Isa taught.

My question to you involves your definition of what it means to be crucified? Does the process have to result in death for it to be called crucifixion, or is the fact that one is hung on a cross (but are rescued from it before death) enough to say that an individual has been crucified?

 

[Supreme]

So is this what you believe happened regarding "But it was made to appear to them so " ,that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place

May I ask, as I have often wondered, what do Muslims think of this? God gaves Judas the looks of Jesus and had him crucified- only to, seven hundred years later, when Christianity was already one of the largest religions in the world, admit He'd made a mistake and He'd deliberately misled a whole group of people to believing that Jesus was crucified when He actually wasn't?

 

[Predator]

Is this what you believe, that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place? If this is your belief, on what do you basis it? I don't believe you will find this anywhere in the Qur'an.

I didnt say I believe it , I was asking Al Manar if he believes regarding that "But it was made them to appear to them so " that Judas was crucified in the Jesus place as mentioned in Gospel Of Barnabas, which some muslims believe to be a true theory regarding his alleged "crucifixion"

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_never_crucified.htm

admit He'd made a mistake and He'd deliberately misled a whole group of people to believing that Jesus was crucified when He actually wasn't?

God doesnt make mistakes ,its humans that misunderstand , make mistakes and commit sins and invent pagan theories like the trinity even when Jesus never claimed to be God and said

The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

John 5:30." My father is greater than I , My father is greater than All and I can of my ownself do nothing .
MARK 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the
Father."
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. Luke 6:12


But I dont think you would believe that since your "God" is not above mistakes in your bible

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should REPENT . . ." NUMBERS 23:19

Contradicted by:
". . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over
Israel." 1 SAMUEL 15:35
Also: "And the Lord REPENTED of the evil which he thought to
do unto his people (Israel)." EXODUS 32:14

for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and WAS REFRESHED." EXODUS 31:17

 

[Supreme]

God doesnt make mistakes ,its humans that misunderstand , make mistakes and commit sins and invent pagan theories like the trinity even when Jesus never claimed to be God and said

The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

John 5:30." My father is greater than I , My father is greater than All and I can of my ownself do nothing .
MARK 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the
Father."
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. Luke 6:12


But I dont think you would believe that since your "God" is not above mistakes in your bible

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should REPENT . . ." NUMBERS 23:19

Contradicted by:
". . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over
Israel." 1 SAMUEL 15:35
Also: "And the Lord REPENTED of the evil which he thought to
do unto his people (Israel)." EXODUS 32:14

for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and WAS REFRESHED." EXODUS 31:17

This still hasn't addressed my question. I asked you what you thought about it. I most certainly did not require you to attempt to discredit Christian theology. So I'll repeat the question: What do you think about Judas magically acquiring the looks of Jesus for unexplained reasons only for it to subsequently found a massive religion? Why would God allow Judas to be placed on the cross if he looked like Jesus? I don't quite understand that verse: why would Judas appear like Jesus and all the disciples of Jesus, who had been with Him for His ministry, suddenly 'mistake' Judas for Jesus? Surely they knew what Jesus and Judas looked like?

 

[aadil77]

This still hasn't addressed my question. I asked you what you thought about it. I most certainly did not require you to attempt to discredit Christian theology. So I'll repeat the question: What do you think about Judas magically acquiring the looks of Jesus for unexplained reasons only for it to subsequently found a massive religion? Why would God allow Judas to be placed on the cross if he looked like Jesus? I don't quite understand that verse: why would Judas appear like Jesus and all the disciples of Jesus, who had been with Him for His ministry, suddenly 'mistake' Judas for Jesus? Surely they knew what Jesus and Judas looked like?

Whatever we say about this does not reflect islamic teachings.

We don't know what officially happened, but if it was made to appear that it was somebody else - it could be because Allah wanted to save prophet Jesus, like he did with musa, ibrahim and many other prophets, I'm not saying all prophets were saved by Allah, thousands were killed at the hands of disbelievers, I'm just giving you an example.

Like the verse says it was made to appear to them, so they thought it was the prophet jesus they killed. This is nothing difficult for god to do.

 

[Predator]

Or... would you allow, as apparently Deedat does, that to say that one is crucified means that they have been put on a cross, but that such a person could be taken down from the cross before death and while they would be alive (never dead) that it could still correctly be said of them that they were crucified?

.

Right,the act of fixing to the cross is called crucifixion. Crucifxion is not like beheading,drowning and blasting which kills a person instantly . Its a slow death . The Filipinos re-enact these crucifixion on Good friday just for a short while and then they are removed (de-crucified ) from the cross and then they walk away smoking cigarettes,so going by the dictionary its technically correct to say that these person were crucified

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17978154/

When the Quran says that "they didnt kill him and they didnt crucify him" , it means it has ruled out 2 things

1.Crucifxion
2. Death

Thus telling us that Jesus was never put on the cross. According to the Gospel of Barnabas and one hadith ,it was one of the disciple and most probably Judas who was put on the cross

http://www.answering-christianity.org/abdullah_smith/crucifixion_of_judas.htm