How the Bible and the Quran seriously view women

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Gossamer skye said:
A deflection from what? Do you understand what this topic is about?
you seem to only hang on to one hadith.. what does patience have to do with meandering the topic?
If you wish to discuss other aspects of christianity you may open a thread for it, and try to familiarize yourself with the rules of the forum in FAQ, so we aren't constantly creating posts that are far strayed from purpose..
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Of course I understand the topic! The clue is in it's title, "How the Bible and the Quran seriously view women"

Sorry if you don't like the assertions about the bible and women as stated in the opening post, to be proved wrong!
 
mog said:
Of course I understand the topic! The clue is in it's title, "How the Bible and the Quran seriously view women"

Sorry if you don't like the assertions about the bible and women as stated in the opening post, to be proved wrong!
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How have you proved any of this wrong?


"Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman." ~St. John Chrysostom

"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot give birth to as many children as she is capable of, makes herself guilty of that many murders." ~St. Augustine

"Do you know that each of your women is an Eve? The sentence of God - on this sex of yours - lives in this age; the guilt must necessarily live, too. You are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law." ~Tertullian

"Let us set our women folk on the road to goodness by teaching them to display submissiveness." "Every woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the thought that she is a woman." ~St. Clement of Alexandria

At the Council of Macon in 585 A.D., Bishops voted if women have immortal souls. The measure passed by one vote only.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing
1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."
 
I dont have much knowledge but would like to say that women had no value until Islam came and through Prophet(S.A), the value of women rose.And if you say its not about value, then you can apply those rules in your life(from Quran) and see how they are true compared to Bible.And in Islam, men and women are given equal status.Indeed, Bible have been much changed and Quran is yet in its pure form and you can prove yourself that these things are true(christians or unbelievers.Try to implement something before fighting).
Fighting here means arguing
 
I think the fact that the second most important figure in Christianity after Jesus, the Virgin Mary, proves that Christianity is a far cry from a religion repressive to women. The fact that a billion Catholic and two hundred million Orthodox Christians venerate Mary, a female, with images, hymns and prayers in honour of her proves that, although Christianity may seem slightly out of date with 21st century feminism and liberalism in terms of women's rights, a woman is still held dear to the heart of millions of Christians, above all other men in the religion bar Jesus.
 
well since Mary is a mother to god it is only logical that she is a goddess.. how do women kind compare to a goddess?
 
Gossamer skye said:
That would be the logical sequence of the birth of a god?
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Again, you seem to be diverting the topic. If you have a point to raise about my assertion that Mary is the second most important figure from Christians, and that Christianity cannot therefore be sexist, then by all means, do. Posting spam will only result in a closed topic!
 
Supreme said:
Again, you seem to be diverting the topic. If you have a point to raise about my assertion that Mary is the second most important figure from Christians, and that Christianity cannot therefore be sexist, then by all means, do. Posting spam will only result in a closed topic!
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It is not a diversion, it is a serious query, how is a woman who is a 'mother to god' compare to womankind-- the bible and various saints thereafter seem to have a very negative view of women.. If Mary is exempt it is obviously not a reflection on womankind in general.. but one who is viewed as a goddess a 'mother of a god'

all the best
 
Gossamer skye said:
It is not a diversion, it is a serious query, how is a woman who is a 'mother to god' compare to womankind-- the bible and various saints thereafter seem to have a very negative view of women.. If Mary is exempt it is obviously not a reflection on womankind in general.. but one who is viewed as a goddess a 'mother of a god'

all the best
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Jesus was from the Line of david.
The "Line" is a Patriarchal line. Its father to son. Jesus who was "Born of woman" is listed in the lineup as being the son of mary who's husband was Joseph.
Now Joseph might have been of the line of David, although the geneologys differ hugely , thus either one of them or all of them (My Bet is on all of 'em) are made up. Lets say he was of that line, thus the father was Joseph the Carpenter. Where Yaweh fits into the deal is anyones guess!
 
barney said:
Jesus was from the Line of david.
The "Line" is a Patriarchal line. Its father to son. Jesus who was "Born of woman" is listed in the lineup as being the son of mary who's husband was Joseph.
Now Joseph might have been of the line of David, although the geneologys differ hugely , thus either one of them or all of them (My Bet is on all of 'em) are made up. Lets say he was of that line, thus the father was Joseph the Carpenter. Where Yaweh fits into the deal is anyones guess!
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Half the time I really don't understand what you are saying.. and the other half, I really don't need your input.


all the best
 
Gossamer skye said:
Half the time I really don't understand what you are saying.. and the other half, I really don't need your input.


all the best
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So which half is this occassion? :D

just to clarify.
The Bible says that Jesus was of the line of david. That means he is a normal human being. Not a god.
 
barney said:
Jesus was from the Line of david.
The "Line" is a Patriarchal line. Its father to son. Jesus who was "Born of woman" is listed in the lineup as being the son of mary who's husband was Joseph.
Now Joseph might have been of the line of David, although the geneologys differ hugely , thus either one of them or all of them (My Bet is on all of 'em) are made up. Lets say he was of that line, thus the father was Joseph the Carpenter. Where Yaweh fits into the deal is anyones guess!
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Hello, dancing dinosaur

Question: "What is YHWH? What is the tetragrammaton?"

Answer: The ancient Hebrew language that the Hebrew Scriptures were written in did not have vowels. In the original Hebrew, God’s name is given as "YHWH." This is known as the tetragrammaton. Because of the lack of vowels, Bible scholars debate how the tetragrammaton “YHWH” was pronounced.

Contrary to what some Christians (and at least one cult that uses this name) believe, “Jehovah” is probably not the Divine Name revealed to Israel. Due to the Jewish fear of accidentally taking God’s Name in vain (Leviticus 24:16), they basically quit saying it out-loud altogether. Instead, when reading, they substituted the actual tetragrammaton (which is only the consonants of the Divine Name “YHWH” since Hebrew is not usually written with vowels included) with the word Adonai (Lord). Even in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) the translators substituted Kurios (Lord) for the Divine Name. Eventually the vowels from Adonai (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”) found their way into the consonants YHWH, thus forming “YaHWeH.” But this does not mean that was how God’s Name was originally pronounced.

Any number of vowel combinations are possible, and the Jews are as uncertain of the real pronunciation as are Christians. “Jehovah” is actually a much later (probably 16th century) variant in Latin. Here, the “Y” is substituted with a “J” (Hebrew does not even have a “J” sound), and the “W” with a “V,” plus another vowel combination, resulting in “JeHoVaH.” This vowel combination is composed of the abbreviated forms of the imperfect, the participle, and the perfect of the Hebrew being verb (English “is”) - thus the meaning of Jehovah could be said to be "he who will be, is, and has been."

So, what is God's name and what does it mean? The most likely choice for how the tetragrammaton was pronounced is "Yahweh" or something very similar to that. The name "Yahweh" refers to God's self-existence. "Yahweh" is linked with how God described Himself in Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God's name is a reflection of His being. God is the only self-existent / self-sufficient Being in the universe. Only God has life in and of Himself. That is the essential meaning of the tetragrammaton / YHWH / Yahweh.
 
barney said:
So which half is this occassion? :D

just to clarify.
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a little of both, especially when I am under the weather and my computer is taking two hours to buffer a movie of which I was only able to watch 16 minutes worth!
The Bible says that Jesus was of the line of david. That means he is a normal human being. Not a god.
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I agree that the creation of Jesus is like that of the creation of Adam!

all the best
 
Thanks for that Italianguy. Yeah , i spent a little time myself looking into it. The ancient tribal egyptian god of Ywh seems to have been carried with the small band of jewish exiles over to Cannan, if the idea of an exodus holds any water.

Interestingly i heard Rabbi Bloom talking about the translation of I am what i am. He said it was actually I will be what I will be".

I prefer I Yam what I Yam. Much more Popeye like.
 
Gossamer skye said:
a little of both, especially when I am under the weather and my computer is taking two hours to buffer a movie of which I was only able to watch 16 minutes worth!


I agree that the creation of Jesus is like that of the creation of Adam!

all the best
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Good luck with the computor. (Or computer)

I would say that Jesus is probably a historical figure. Adam , not so much!
 
barney said:
So which half is this occassion? :D

just to clarify.
The Bible says that Jesus was of the line of david. That means he is a normal human being. Not a god.
Click to expand...

From wikipedia:
Jesus as divine

In mainstream Christianity the title of Son of God is used to describe Jesus as a divine being and a member of the Trinity. This is expressed, for instance, in the Nicene Creed, which refers to Jesus as God's only Son, true God from true God, who took human form in the flesh. This view interprets the New Testament as referring to or implying the deity of Jesus in, for example, Hebrews 1:8, which quotes Psalm 45:6 as addressing him as God, and in John 8:58, where Jesus states, "Before Abraham was, I am", seen in this view as referencing God's name "I am", revealed in Exodus 3:14. Also in John 5:18, John writes "but he [Jesus] was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God".
[edit] Jesus as godly

Another view is that, in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus styled himself the Son of God in the same sense as a righteous person was sometimes referred to as a son or child of God (though not the son of God), as in Wisdom 2:18. Since New Testament books present Jesus as without sin,[12] those who hold the first view, that of Jesus as divine, can hold this view too, but not as an exclusive interpretation.
[edit] Christians as children of God

See also: Divine filiation.

In the Gospel of John, the author writes that "to all who believed him and accepted him [Jesus], he gave the right to become children of God" [John 1:12]. The phrase "children of God" is used ten times in the New Testament.[13] To these can be added the five times, mentioned above, in which the New Testament speaks of "sons of God". The New Testament speaks of no individual Christian as it speaks of Jesus, as the son of God, not just a son of God.

And this line:
Once, a paralytic man was presented before Jesus for healing (Luke 5:17-26), and Jesus said, “Man, thy sins are forgiven thee” (Luke 5:20). And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? (Luke 5:21). But Jesus (God in flesh) knew their thoughts and queried,
What's God in flesh?
 
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barney said:
Good luck with the computor. (Or computer)

I would say that Jesus is probably a historical figure. Adam , not so much!
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That's what christians believe.
When you say Adam is not a historical figure, you mean that he isn't greater than Jesus.
He was the first Prophet and the first man on this earth.
And if you say that why do we see Prophet Mohammed(S.A) as greater then Adam, then he was the last and the chosen Prophet of Allah and that's why he was for all tribes and not only one tribe.
And Allah knows better why He sent Prophet(S.A) at last, but once the injury becomes severe, something big has got to be done and that's the reason why Prophet(S.A) was sent at last, if he was sent first, the world had been again in ignorance.
Read this:


Jesus, being born of a virgin, became human and lived among us. God was with us in human flesh. (Matthew 1:23; John 1:14)



Jesus was in the world, and the world was made by Jesus, but people did not know Jesus as God. (John 1:10)

Jesus forgave sins! (Matthew 9:2-6; Mark 2:5-10)
No normal human being, neither Prophet can forgive sins.Its alone in God's hand.

Read this too:
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/jesus-is-god.htm
and this:
http://www.everystudent.com/features/faith.html
 
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MMohammed said:
That's what christians believe.
When you say Adam is not a historical figure, you mean that he isn't greater than Jesus.
He was the first Prophet and the first man on this earth.
And if you say that why do we see Prophet Mohammed(S.A) as greater then Adam, than he was the last and the chosen Prophet of Allah and that's why he was for all tribes and not only one tribe.
And Allah knows better why He sent Prophet(S.A) at last, but once the injury becomes severe, something big has got to be done and that's the reason why Prophet(S.A) was sent at last, if he was sent first, the world had been again in ignorance.
Read this:


Jesus, being born of a virgin, became human and lived among us. God was with us in human flesh. (Matthew 1:23; John 1:14)



Jesus was in the world, and the world was made by Jesus, but people did not know Jesus as God. (John 1:10)

Jesus forgave sins! (Matthew 9:2-6; Mark 2:5-10)
No normal human being, neither Prophet can forgive sins.Its alone in God's hand.
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Umm, I think you got the wrong end of the stick there. I meant Adam wasnt a historical figure, in that he was a metaphor for the first humans. In other words, wether 6 ft tall or 90, he diddnt exist. Evidence for this being evolution.
 
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