How the Bible and the Quran seriously view women

[جوري]

Not heated at all! I wasnt the one who started all the ad-hom and strawman smokescreening.We must again agree to disagree.
Not really on thread are we, for a change

Really? it is us that are bullying people with non-scientific charts, communist era anti-religion quotes and logical fallacies? Your problems go way beyond the help that anyone can offer on this forum.. and I suspect the only folks that have respect for your braying style are other donkeys-- you'll find them congregating on the dawkin's net.!

all the best

 

[Italianguy]

You understand evolution so well why not engage us in a lucid manner instead of referencing us to vague websites on the web, so that when we take them and break things down to a language even you can understand, you wouldn't throw another one of your famous tantrums?


wow, all that and psychic too? oh pls do tell, what else can you do?


were you always a concrete thinker, or still stuck at a Pre-operational Stage?



Why not put emphasis on what you believe and not what others believe, or are you afraid you'll be ripped into for the stupidities that you subscribe to and cast under the umbrella of 'science'?
Do you have something better to offer than ludicrous claims and logical fallacies?

Generally when you come on with this level bravado, you should introduce a statement in a concise fluid fashion and not a drunkard's fragment if you wish for folks to take anything you say with some semblance of seriousness!

I think you are better suited for a half a dozen cheap tawdry novels than going into topics clearly over your head and then googling communist era quotes to support your position..

silly dude trix are for kids..

but thanks as always for the hearty guffaw, I really love how you get heated over your convictions...

Wooooooooeeeeeeee! LOL Trix are for kids;D

Gotta love em

 

[barney]

Really? it is us that are bullying people with non-scientific charts, communist era anti-religion quotes and logical fallacies? Your problems go way beyond the help that anyone can offer on this forum.. and I suspect the only folks that have respect for your braying style are other donkeys-- you'll find them congregating on the dawkin's net.!

all the best

Bullying is, when verbal, the use of disparaging arrogant and haughty language. It's spamming posts full of personal attacks and comments about brainpower and the perceived lack of it rather than serious debate. it's snide comments lacking substance. calling names such as "buffoon" "Donkey" etc etc.

I'm utterly immune to such bullying, but though I might point out the sweet irony of it all

 

[جوري]

Bullying is, when verbal, the use of disparaging arrogant and haughty language. It's spamming posts full of personal attacks and comments about brainpower and the perceived lack of it rather than serious debate. it's snide comments lacking substance. calling names such as "buffoon" "Donkey" etc etc.

I'm utterly immune to such bullying, but though I might point out the sweet irony of it all

There is no irony when you project.. it is rather sad..but surely there is a support group for folks like you somewhere..

all the best

 

[barney]

There is no irony when you project.. it is rather sad..but surely there is a support group for folks like you somewhere..

all the best

Yeah, have a good 'un. :statisfie

 

[Uthman]

Let's get back the topic.

What's left of it, anyway.

 

[Eliphaz]

All abrahamic religions are man-made, ergo all abrahamic religions denigrate women.

I feel that in comparing the Bible (the whole of Christian scripture) with the Qur'an (only part of Muslim belief) is an unfair comparison. What about the ahadith of Bukhari and Muslim?

 

[Uthman]

I've just deleted another bunch of off-topic posts. Please stick to the topic, otherwise I will close the thread.

 

[Asiyah3]

Heya!

Yup, its grossly sexist for a man to "have to support " women. Sexism works both ways.
For men to be "responsible for women" is sexist.

So I would agree with you on the one point and say that it supports the other!

Yet ignorant folks can't take a blind bit of notice!

 

[Italianguy]

All abrahamic religions are man-made, ergo all abrahamic religions denigrate women.

I feel that in comparing the Bible (the whole of Christian scripture) with the Qur'an (only part of Muslim belief) is an unfair comparison. What about the ahadith of Bukhari and Muslim?

Woahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! What did you just say???? All Abrahamic faiths are what!? MAN MADE???:raging:

It's one thing to call out a single person to be sexist, but you went way to far calling our faiths man made!

Am I the only one noticing this?

The Bible and the Qur'an both hold women up high! We are all told tor treat them with love and respect! They are blessed by God to have the ability to have children, something we men will never be able to acheive.....not saying I want to.

Hats off to you ladies! You are our future.

God bless.

 

[جوري]

Am I the only one noticing this?

.

No, but you are the only one that cares
can't really jump on every comment made by dissidents!

all the best

 

[Italianguy]

No, but you are the only one that cares
can't really jump on every comment made by dissidents!

all the best

I know you care, I was just trying to make a point. I can't believe they said that:raging:. Thats an outright insult to Christians and Muslims. The worst part is ......God sees that, I pray He missed that one, for the posters sakehew

God be with you!

 

[جوري]

I know you care, !

But I really don't

5:105 O you who have attained to faith! It is [but] for your own selves that you are responsible: those who go astray can do you no harm if you [yourselves] are on the right path. Unto God you all must return: and then He will make you [truly] understand all that you were,doing [in life].

 

[Grace Seeker]

How have you proved any of this wrong?


"Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman." ~St. John Chrysostom

"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot give birth to as many children as she is capable of, makes herself guilty of that many murders." ~St. Augustine

"Do you know that each of your women is an Eve? The sentence of God - on this sex of yours - lives in this age; the guilt must necessarily live, too. You are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law." ~Tertullian

"Let us set our women folk on the road to goodness by teaching them to display submissiveness." "Every woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the thought that she is a woman." ~St. Clement of Alexandria

At the Council of Macon in 585 A.D., Bishops voted if women have immortal souls. The measure passed by one vote only.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing
1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

Your first few quotes are not from the Bible. They do illustrate that many of the men who provided leadership in the early church had a low view of women. But they don't prove anything with regard to the Bible.

The other quotes show that indeed there is negative information with regard to women in the Bible. One must ask if this is the whole picture? The answer to that question is that it is NO.

If one were to look at the whole picture would the presentation of women in the Bible seriously change? I believe the answer to that is YES.

So, how should a Christian reading the Bible today understand the role of women? Well, you've already heard how Supreme said his pastor addressed it in worship this past Sunday. I had a similar conversation with a friend yesterday. We all rely on the Bible for presenting our view. But we also continue to wrestle with those who read just the texts you've highlighted. Like you they rely on just a few cherry picked verses and don't take in the whole counsel of God. As a result they seem to have a distorted view of what the Bible has to say about women. Some of those verses have already been provided in this thread for those who choose to read with an open rather than a pre-determined view of things.

 

[Grace Seeker]

That would be the logical sequence of the birth of a god?

Then you are refusing to deal with the Mary known to Christians, but something you have created and projected onto Christianity. Mary is the God-bearer, but not a goddess. No Christian religion (not even Catholicism) views her that way.

 

[جوري]

Your first few quotes are not from the Bible. They do illustrate that many of the men who provided leadership in the early church had a low view of women. But they don't prove anything with regard to the Bible.

The other quotes show that indeed there is negative information with regard to women in the Bible. One must ask if this is the whole picture? The answer to that question is that it is NO.

If one were to look at the whole picture would the presentation of women in the Bible seriously change? I believe the answer to that is YES.

So, how should a Christian reading the Bible today understand the role of women? Well, you've already heard how Supreme said his pastor addressed it in worship this past Sunday. I had a similar conversation with a friend yesterday. We all rely on the Bible for presenting our view. But we also continue to wrestle with those who read just the texts you've highlighted. Like you they rely on just a few cherry picked verses and don't take in the whole counsel of God. As a result they seem to have a distorted view of what the Bible has to say about women. Some of those verses have already been provided in this thread for those who choose to read with an open rather than a pre-determined view of things.

Not cherry picking no, it is a matter of how christianity as a religion merely evolves through the ages, from soulless creatures to naked at hooters with a cross necklace..

I am always amazed how you deem some 'saints' worthy and others charlatans through the ages when you can't get a consensus on anything else.

It is very difficult for someone outside of christianity to get past the basic tenets to other aspects of how women or colored people were viewed.

I remember hearing once that God created man in his image and since God is white, black people can't be his children.. certainly the dark history of christianity paints a very different one from this ideal that you wish others would be deceived into believing!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

I remember hearing once that God created man in his image and since God is white, black people can't be his children.. certainly the dark history of christianity paints a very different one from this ideal that you wish others would be deceived into believing!

all the best

There is a dark history to much of human history, Christianis included. But that doesn't make Christianity dark any more than the dark deeds of some Muslims make Islam a dark religion. What if we spent time trying to understand the ideals of both faiths rather than denigrate them based on the actions of those whose behavior either represented them poorly or in name only but not at all in substance? I believe it would produce a better world for all of us.

 

[جوري]

There is a dark history to much of human history, Christianis included. But that doesn't make Christianity dark any more than the dark deeds of some Muslims make Islam a dark religion. What if we spent time trying to understand the ideals of both faiths rather than denigrate them based on the actions of those whose behavior either represented them poorly or in name only but not at all in substance? I believe it would produce a better world for all of us.

except when the religion itself is seeped in it, and the people are simply in compliance of.

all the best

 

[barney]

I'm trying to think of a nation or society pre 1900's that ever gave women the respect or freedoms that todays society does?

I'm talking about the right of equal pay, the right to work, to vote, to lead, to travel, to wear what they want when they want,to say what they want when they want, to do what job they want, to be educated, to have their opinions listened to to being a valued member of that society.

Ancient Greece and Rome are often touted as enlightened societys, but they failed in most of the above. Sparta as the worlds first democracy had women in a very powerful position, but they couldnt join the army and there were taboos on doing "mens work".
The "enlightenment" of the 18th century had women as baby producers who had to write under male names if they wanted a stab at success.

The island of Lesbos's myth of girl power is non historical but the
Nagovisi of Bougainvillea in the South Pacific, the Khasi of Meghalaya, India, and the Machinguenga of Peru are some of a tiny handful of matriarchical tribes.

Thus we find that globally, although there are as many goddesses as gods, the religion of the day dosnt actually grant emancipation for women. It is arguable then that only with the secularisation of a society, something that is almost exclusively a modern phenomenon, that this equality can be found.

 

[جوري]

I'm trying to think of a nation or society pre 1900's that ever gave women the respect or freedoms that todays society does?

I'm talking about the right of equal pay, the right to work, to vote, to lead, to travel, to wear what they want when they want,to say what they want when they want, to do what job they want, to be educated, to have their opinions listened to to being a valued member of that society.

Ancient Greece and Rome are often touted as enlightened societys, but they failed in most of the above. Sparta as the worlds first democracy had women in a very powerful position, but they couldnt join the army and there were taboos on doing "mens work".
The "enlightenment" of the 18th century had women as baby producers who had to write under male names if they wanted a stab at success.

The island of Lesbos's myth of girl power is non historical but the
Nagovisi of Bougainvillea in the South Pacific, the Khasi of Meghalaya, India, and the Machinguenga of Peru are some of a tiny handful of matriarchical tribes.

Thus we find that globally, although there are as many goddesses as gods, the religion of the day dosnt actually grant emancipation for women. It is arguable then that only with the secularisation of a society, something that is almost exclusively a modern phenomenon, that this equality can be found.

if you think women are given the same rights today, you are actually delusional. Consider even the highest paying jobs , women engineers and doctors still make less than their male counterparts:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1118263/

if you so much as take maternity leave you are already out of equal pay and equal positions, especially during your residency years!

Get back to earth if you can!