How the Bible and the Quran seriously view women

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if you think women are given the same rights today, you are actually delusional. Consider even the highest paying jobs , women engineers and doctors still make less than their male counterparts:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1118263/

if you so much as take maternity leave you are already out of equal pay and equal positions, especially during your residency years!

Get back to earth if you can!

Diddnt say women had equality.
I said the equality they had today. If you had been born a Bathuso woman then whats the chances you could have become a Doctor? Your society whatever it is, has given you that right. I would imagine also that you are paid equal to your male colleagues?

It's far from perfect, but its getting there.:D
 
Diddnt say women had equality.
I said the equality they had today. If you had been born a Bathuso woman then whats the chances you could have become a Doctor? Your society whatever it is, has given you that right. I would imagine also that you are paid equal to your male colleagues?

It's far from perfect, but its getting there.:D

Like stated before, I don't know what you say half the time.. to be given equality is to be given equal pay amongst other things-- the chances of me being a doctor are good at any century, it depends on my drive and desire ..
there were plenty of female surgeons and 'herbalists' during the time of the prophet, those who passed fatwas, those who were scholars etc.

http://www.twocircles.net/2008may11/book_review_unveiling_hidden_history_women_ulema.html

all the best
 
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Like stated before, I don't know what you say half the time.. to be given equality is to be given equal pay amongst other things-- the chances of me being a doctor are good at any century, it depends on my drive and desire ..
there were plenty of female surgeons and 'herbalists' during the time of the prophet, those who passed fatwas, those who were scholars etc.

http://www.twocircles.net/2008may11/book_review_unveiling_hidden_history_women_ulema.html

all the best

I dont know what i say most of the time, so you have the advantage on me there. ;D

To have equal pay is indeed a requirement for true equality, but more nessecery for humans to not think in terms of "mans role" or "womans role".
Sure childbirth and feedings ,less so feeding these days, are the only real exceptions!
 
I dont know what i say most of the time, so you have the advantage on me there. ;D

To have equal pay is indeed a requirement for true equality, but more nessecery for humans to not think in terms of "mans role" or "womans role".
Sure childbirth and feedings ,less so feeding these days, are the only real exceptions!

fact is if you have to take some time off for reasons men don't take time off for, you'll be paid less -- for some reason you are under some faulty impression that women want to be treated like men? we don't.. we want to be treated better-- western culture in its inane pursuits has done away with so much common sense, like giving up your seat for an elderly or opening the door to someone with a carriage, or paying for dinner even if the wife makes more money, or carrying someone's bag or luggage, I expect these things as do most women (it is just good manners) .. In general I think your idea of 'equality' is quite skewed.. it doesn't work in the real world, the olympics or with God.. equality doesn't mean sameness. Certainly women can and do play different roles than men or similar in many aspects on their own accord, but it counts just the same in the eyes of God according to Islam even if it doesn't in the real world!..

a man's jihad and woman's jihad might come in different forms.. but the reward is the same!

hope we are clear!
 
Maternity pay seems to work fine. The cost to the employer is balanced by retaining trained experienced staff.

If women want to be treated better than men then Tough!
I agree that opening doors and doffing your hat is archaic and silly. Its actually demeaning to women.
I helped a lass with her buggy up a flight of steps yesterday, but that wasnt because i was a man, it was because she was struggling.A passing woman could have helped just as easily.
Nothing is going to make the sexes purely equal, but we can shed much historical baggage by dropping the Protected Treasure label and replace it with strong independent individual
 
Maternity pay seems to work fine. The cost to the employer is balanced by retaining trained experienced staff.

you live in a bizarre world of your making. My Friend L, is a brilliant doctor, and her chief resident position went to a moron simply because she was pregnant! So don't tell me how it works fine or all about experienced staff.
If women want to be treated better than men then Tough!
Precisely why you are the sort of man, no woman would be interested in!
I agree that opening doors and doffing your hat is archaic and silly. Its actually demeaning to women.
speak only on behalf of the women you are accustomed to and frequent. Most women prefer excellent manners!
I helped a lass with her buggy up a flight of steps yesterday, but that wasnt because i was a man, it was because she was struggling.A passing woman could have helped just as easily.
glad you have some semblance of humanity left in you!
Nothing is going to make the sexes purely equal, but we can shed much historical baggage by dropping the Protected Treasure label and replace it with strong independent individual
Independence has nothing to do with social graces and the right thing to do, and unfortunately nothing to do with the reality of things..

so pls. spare me with your input.. if you want to speak on behalf of women then get a sex change and pump your body full of hormones, but even then you'd be speaking on behalf of freaks. Don't come and tell me how much better it is now because you view it as such.. you attention and capacity to understand the world around you is almost cartoonish!
 
you live in a bizarre world of your making. My Friend L, is a brilliant doctor, and her chief resident position went to a moron simply because she was pregnant! So don't tell me how it works fine or all about experienced staff.

Precisely why you are the sort of man, no woman would be interested in!

speak only on behalf of the women you are accustomed to and frequent. Most women prefer excellent manners!

glad you have some semblance of humanity left in you!

Independence has nothing to do with social graces and the right thing to do, and unfortunately nothing to do with the reality of things..

so pls. spare me with your input.. if you want to speak on behalf of women then get a sex change and pump your body full of hormones, but even then you'd be speaking on behalf of freaks. Don't come and tell me how much better it is now because you view it as such.. you attention and capacity to understand the world around you is almost cartoonish!

You would fit very well into a 18th century world and do your sisters in humanity a great disgrace. You claim that women are not treated equally, complain that it is so, then dismiss that it should ever be. This is the conclusion a duck hit around the head with a plank might come to if it had consumed quarts of whiskey.

For a cartoon simile I would suggest Cruella D'Ville but without the humour, personality,charm or wit.
 
You would fit very well into a 18th century world and do your sisters in humanity a great disgrace. You claim that women are not treated equally, complain that it is so, then dismiss that it should ever be. This is the conclusion a duck hit around the head with a plank might come to if it had consumed quarts of whiskey.

For a cartoon simile I would suggest Cruella D'Ville but without the humour, personality,charm or wit.

Your idea of liberation and equality are as advanced as you are (which isn't very).. it is that simple-- as for your personality and wit, well I wouldn't even classify you as cruella's dalmatian..

now take a hike!
 
Islam has been accused by Hinduism of being a barbaric,misogynist,terrrorist religion, and also accused of subjugating women behind veils and all those allegation.And the more shocking fact is , if you were to visit any social networking site you would find Hindus,Christians making fun of Islam and poor Muslims trying to defend Islam.

The below information can be used as a combat kit against Hindus.


Is Women really Independent according to the Hindu Scriptures ?:

“In childhood must a female be dependent on her father ; in youth, on her husband ; her lord being dead, on her sons ; if she have no sons, on the near kinsmen of her husband ; if he left no kinsmen, on those of her father ; if she have no paternal kinsmen, on the sovereign : a woman must never seek independence.”



- (Institutes of Hindu Law , Ch 5, verse 138 )[Translated by Kenealy ,Watford ,1911] Or the Manu Smriti with diff Translation.



“A wife is not independent with respect to (the fulfillment of) the sacred law.”

- (Gautama Sutra,,Chapter XVIII, verse 1.)[SBE Vol-2 Edited by F.Muller,Sacred Laws of Aryas Part I. Translated by George Buhler, Oxford Clarendon Press ,1879]

“A woman is not independent, the males are her masters. It has been declared in the Veda, ' A female who neither goes naked nor is temporarily unclean is paradise.' ”

- (Vashistha Smriti, Ch V. verse 1) [Translated by Georg Buhler in The Sacred laws of Aryas ,Part II , SBE Vol-2 American Ed, Newyork Christian Litreature Society ,1898.]



“Now they quote also (the following verse): ' Their fathers protect them in childhood, their husbands protect them in youth, and their sons protect them in age; a woman is never fit for independence.' ”

- (Vashistha Smriti, Ch V, verse 2) [Translated by Georg Buhler in The Sacred laws of Aryas ,Part II , Newyork ,Christian Litreature Society ,1898.]


“Women do not possess independence.”

-( Baudhayana Smriti, Prasana 2, Adhayaya 2, Kandika 3, verse 44) [Translated by Georg Buhler in The Sacred laws of Aryas ,Part II , Newyork Christian Litreature Society ,1898]


Many Hindus will be found criticising early Marraige of Ayesha RadiAllah Anha to RasoolAllah Sallal lahu Alayhi wa Sallam , so how do you answer them.


When a Girl is to be Married :


“A girl should be given in marriage before (she attains the age of) puberty. He who neglects it, commits sin.Some (declare, that a girl shall be given in Marriage ) before she wears clothes.”


-(Gautama Smriti,,Chapter XVIII,verses 21-23)[ Sacred Laws of Aryas Part I Translated by George Buhler ,SBE Vol-2 Edited by F.Muller,., Oxford Clarendon Press ,1879]



So when ? When she doesn't even wear Clothes!


“The mother, and the father, and likewise the eldest brother, all these three relatives will go to hell, if before menstruation they neglect to marry the girl.”



- ( Institutes of Parasara , Ch 7, verse 6)[Translated by Krishnakamal Bhattacharya, Baptist Mission Press , Calcutta ,1887]



Elswhere Parashar says :



“When the twelfth year is reached by the female child, if the guardian does not give her away in marriage, her forefathers drink, without interruption, during each succeeding month, whatever blood is passed in her courses.”



- ( Institutes of Parasara Ch 7, verse 5)[Translated by Krishnakamal Bhattacharya, Baptist Mission Press , Calcutta ,1887]





“ A householder shall take a wife (of) equal (caste), who has not belonged to another man and is younger (than himself).”



- ( Gautama Samhita, Ch IV. Verse 1,)[Translated by Georg Buhler ,Sacred Laws of Aryas Part I,Oxford ,Clarendon Press, 1879]



“A maiden who has attained puberty shall wait for three years. After three years (have passed), she may take a husband of equal caste. Now they quote also (the following verses) : ' But if through a father's negligence a maiden is here given away after the suitable age has passed, she who was waiting (for a husband) destroys him who gives her away, just as the fee which is paid too late to the teacher (destroys the pupil).' ' Out of fear of the appearance of the menses let the father marry his daughter while she still runs about naked. For if she stays (in the house) after the age of puberty, sin falls on the father.' 'As often as the courses of a maiden, who is filled with desire, and demanded in marriage by men of equal caste, recur, so often her father and her mother are guilty of (the crime of) slaying an embryo; that is a rule of the sacred law.'”



-(Vashistha Smriti , Ch XVII, verse 67-71) ,)[Translated by Georg Buhler ,Sacred Laws of Aryas Part II,Oxford ,Clarendon Press, 1879]



“Let him give his daughter, while she still goes naked, to a man who has not broken the vow of chastity and who possesses good qualities, or even to one destitute of good qualities ; let him not keep (the maiden) in (his house) after she has reached the age of puberty. He who does not give away a marriageable daughter during three years doubtlessly contracts a guilt equal to (that of) destroying an embryo. Such will be the case if anybody asks her in marriage, and also if nobody demands her. Manu has declared that at each appearance of the menses (the father incurs the guilt of) a mortal sin.”



-( Baudhayana Smriti ,Prasna 4, Adhyaya 1, verses 11-13),)[Translated by Georg Buhler ,Sacred Laws of Aryas Part II,Oxford ,Clarendon Press, 1879]



"Let no maiden suffer the period of maturity to come on without giving notice of it to her relations. Should they omit to give her in marriage, they would be equal to the murderers of an embryo. He who does not give such a maiden in marriage commits the crime of killing an embryo as many times as her period of menstruation passes by without her having a husband. Therefore a father must give his daughter in marriage once (for all), as soon as the signs of maturity become apparent. (By acting) otherwise he would commit a heavy crime. Such is the rule settled among the virtuous.”



- (Narada Smriti Book XII Verses 25-27)[“The Minor Law Books” Translated by Julius Jolly,Oxford ,Clarendon Press, 1889.Sacred Books of East Vol- 33]




Other Books like Manu Smriti are quoted in earlier Posts.



Inheritance for Women in Hindu Scriptures :



“Soma could not bear being drawn for women; making the ghee a bolt they beat it, they drew it when it had lost its power; therefore women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man”



-Yajurveda(Taittiriya Sanhita) Khanda VI, Prapathaka 5 ,Hymn 8) [Translated by Arthur Berriedale Keith, Harvard University Press,1914]



“Manu divided his property among his sons”



-Yajurveda(Taittiriya Sanhita) Khanda III ,Prapathaka 1 ,Hymn 9 ) [Translated by Arthur Berriedale Keith, Harvard University Press,1914]



Manu is the First Man *(according to the Hindu Scriptures) created by Hindu God , like Adam, infact the english word 'Man' is taken from the Sanskrat word 'Manu'.



The above verses are enough as Vedas are the prime scriptures for Hindus but lets prove this through Dharma Shastras too.



“The Veda (says), ' Manu divided his estate among his sons.'”



- ( Baudhayana Smriti ,Prasna II, Adhaaya 2, Khandika. 3, verse 2) [Translated By Georg Buhler, The Christian literature company , Newyork ,1898]



“He should, during his lifetime, divide his wealth equally amongst his sons, excepting the eunuch, the mad man, and the outcast.”



- [Apastamba Smriti ,Prasna II, Patala 6 , Khanda 14 ,verse 1) [Translated by Georg Buhler ,Sacred Laws of Aryas Part I,Oxford ,Clarendon Press, 1879]



What if a Hindu criticizes the Position of women in Islam:

Its common to find Hindus , criticizing the Position of women on Islam , they often quote Da'eef Hadeeth and misinterpret pother Hadeeths so how are you going to answer them?

Here is theTranslation of the Same verse from the Upanishad(Brihaddarayanakaya) which commands the Husbands to beat (with hand and stick )their wife if they disagree to sleep with them.

Violence against women permitted

" If she should not grant him his desire, he should bribe her. If she still does not grant him his desire, he should hit her with a stick or with his hand, and overcome her, saying : ‘With power, with glory I take away your glory ! ' Thus she becomes inglorious.’ "

- (Brihad-Arayankaya Upanishad, Adhayaya 6, Brahmana 4, verse 7)[The Thirteen Principal Upanishads,Translated by Robert Ernest Hume, Oxford University Press .1921)]


"If she does not willingly yield her body to him, he should buy her with presents. If she is still unyielding, he should strike her with a stick or with his hand and overcome her, repeating the following mantra: "With power and glory I take away your glory." Thus she becomes discredited."

- (Part 6, Ch 4, verse 7 in "The Upanishads - A New Translation" by Swami Nikhilananda )


"If she do not give in, let him, as he likes, bribe her (with presents). And if she then do not give in, let him, as he likes, beat her with a stick or with his hand, and overcome her , saying : ' With manly strength and glory I take away thy glory,'- and thus she becomes unglorious."

-(Brihad-Arayankaya Upanishad, Adhayaya 6 ,Brahmana 4, verse 7) The Upanishads ,Part-2 Translated by F.Max Muller,Oxford Claredon Press,1884

The 3 translations were quoted for those dubious of me mistranslating of misinterpreting the verses.

There are many fools going around and showing their discontent with Islam,due to Islams restrictions on women on politics.Here' how to reply them.

Is a woman consulted by Man ?

"At the time of consultation, let him remove the stupid, the dumb, the blind, and the deaf, talking birds, decrepit old men, women, and infidels, the diseased and the maimed ;"

- (Institutes of Hindu Law , Ch 7 ,Verse 147 )[Translated by Kenealy ,Watford ,1911]

So according to Manusmriti Kings should not consult Women?

How about Purity,a Hindu will find Smritis , claiming women to pure and nothing makes here impure , but then why?

Boycotting women during Menstruation:

"...one should not converse with (a woman) with stained garments (Menses), one should not sit with her, nor eat her food, for she keeps emitting the colour of guilt (menses). Or rather they say, ‘Woman's food is unguent, and therefore one should not accept (from her) unguent , but anything else (can be accepted) at will.'"

-[Yajurveda(Taittiriya Sanhita) Khanda II,Prapathaka 5,Hymn 1 ] [Translated by Arthur Berriedale Keith, Harvard University Press,1914]

Above Vedic citation is enough but lets see what the Puranas say?

“After menstruation the women should be avoided for four days. Their face should not be seen during that time, lest sin should arise in the body.”

-(Garuda Purana, Chapter XV ,verse 7) [Translated by Ernest Wood & S.V. Subrahmanyam, ,Published by Panini Office , Allahabad ,1911]
 
Aye, the early books of the Bible originated in (roughly) the same cultural climate as Islam: middle eatern patriarchal structures that regarded women as little more than the valued property of their husbands and/or male relatives: prospective brides were bought and/or traded in for a dozen camels (or a similar price); the Ten Utterances, correctly grouped, count wives among the neighbour's possessions (rather than dividing the "not to covet" laws up into two separate commandments); Deuteronomical rape laws follow the logic of "if you damage the merchandise, you have to buy it"; and so on and so forth.

None of that really justifies Islamic misogynism, of course. It just goes to show how deeply Islam is entrenched in 7th century Arabian culture (as opposed to being associated with the timeless wisdom of a divine being).
 
I think that the safest answer to this is that the place of women vary according to the interpretations people make of both the qur'ân and the Bible.
 
may i ask why do you think mohamed married so many wifes and took a 6 year old child as wife and had sex with her at 9 years.Also i read that he married his adoptive son wife.I understand that he probably justifies himself n one way ore another, but excepting that what kind of moral example is that and how can be justified to have sex with children?
 
I guess the same way 'King David' from your bible justified taking a child concubine on his death bed, and the same way the age of consent up to 1919 in a state such as Delaware was 7 and for the same reasons a 'woman' can be betrothed as an infant in Judaism!


Abishag Was a young virgin from the town of Shunem, North of Jezreel and Mount Gilboa, in the territory of Issachar. (Jos 19:17-23) She was "beautiful in the extreme" and was chosen by David's servants to become the nurse and companion of the king during his final days.
see 1Ki 1:1-4.
David was now about 70 years of age (2Sa 5:4, 5), and as a result of debilitation he had little body heat. Abishag waited on him during the day, doubtless brightening the surroundings with her youthful freshness and beauty, and at night she "lay in the king's bosom"
to give him warmth, but "the king himself had no intercourse with her." Nevertheless, the attitude later manifested by Solomon regarding her indicates that Abishag was viewed as being in the position of wife or concubine of David. As such, by a rule in the ancient East, she would become the property of David's heir at the time of his death.

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law?
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

chupah-1.gif
Our Sages state1 that "it is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry.'"
It is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry'!
In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three.2 A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen.3 Add a comment
Footnotes

  • 1. Talmud Kiddushin 41a.
  • 2. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 37:1.
  • 3. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 43:1.


What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law? | AskMoses.com - Judaism, Ask a Rabbi - Live


this one is from bringhamton.edu
of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen,

website

Campaign to Raise the Legal Age of Consent, 1885-1914, Lesson Plan
 
Aye, the early books of the Bible originated in (roughly) the same cultural climate as Islam: middle eatern patriarchal structures that regarded women as little more than the valued property of their husbands and/or male relatives: prospective brides were bought and/or traded in for a dozen camels (or a similar price); the Ten Utterances, correctly grouped, count wives among the neighbour's possessions (rather than dividing the "not to covet" laws up into two separate commandments); Deuteronomical rape laws follow the logic of "if you damage the merchandise, you have to buy it"; and so on and so forth.

None of that really justifies Islamic misogynism, of course. It just goes to show how deeply Islam is entrenched in 7th century Arabian culture (as opposed to being associated with the timeless wisdom of a divine being).


No responses?
 
Someone (Muslim) would have to agree with your analysis in order to dignify it with a response.. and no one does so you are a party of one!

You are too generous. I would definitely NOT call this "analysis":

None of that really justifies Islamic misogynism, of course. It just goes to show how deeply Islam is entrenched in 7th century Arabian culture (as opposed to being associated with the timeless wisdom of a divine being).
 
You are too generous. I would definitely NOT call this "analysis":

lol.. I was being cordial!
why do blue fish have wings in 3rd C. BC.. what no response? ;D;D;D
if you accept dying mengods as your saviors I guess anything goes!

:w:
 

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