What makes something good?

[جوري]

I would now like to move the debate on to specifically faith related matters of good and bad. One area of specific interest to me is the place of women in Islam and whether that 'place' is morally justifiable, indeed good, best or better than elsewhere or specifically better than that typically found in Western or other religious cultures. For purposes of continuity here and to allow those who want to follow it up I will paraphrase from Wafa Sultan's book "A God who Hates" published in 2009 with ISBN 9780312 538354.

The Koran says: "There is a good example in Allah's apostle" (33:21). So it has relevance to this thread, do we simply accept that because a certain persoin performed and act it is automatically 'good' and the act itself need not be considered?

In this instance, the Prophet contracted his marriage with Aisha when she was six years old and he was fifty. The marriage was consummated when she was nine. If we consider now the book "Wives of Mohammed" written in 1959 by the very well respected scholar, Bint al-Shati' she describes that day for us in Aisha's words:

"The Prophet married me when I was six years old and the marriage was consummated when I was nine. The Prophet of God came to our home in company with men and women who were among his followers. My mother came [to me] while I was in a swing between the branches of a tree and made me come down. She smoothed my hair, wiped my face with a little water then came forward and led me to the door. She stopped me while I calmed myself a little. Then she took me in. The Prophet of God was sitting on a bed in our home, and she sat me in his lap. Everyone jumped up and went out, and the Prophet consummated his marriage with me at our home."​

Here can we discuss its moral importance and what it has done, and is still doing, to destroy the moral and mental fibre of Muslim men and women. A fifty-year-old man marries a six-year-old girl and consummates their marriage when she turns nine. The question is simple was this act a crime or an example, indeed an ideal example to be followed?

If we step aside from the event itself and look at the religious and legal legitimization it has been accorded it is the moral example that the individual Muslim extracts from this incident which invest it with its importance and gravity. So Islamic custom attaches no value to childhood. A child is his father's property, who has the right to dispose of him as he would of any other property. When a mother picks up her young daughter of no more than nine years and places her in the arms of a man her grandfather's age, her daughter's child-hood has surely been irreparably violated. When the mother's action acquired religious and legal legitimacy, it became a way of life for fourteen centuries. I cannot see any other way to view this but I wait to see what others might add.

Much of what you have written here is a great deal of nonsense.. and I quote Ansar from another thread:

This is a misunderstanding of Islamic law. Actions which the Prophet did do not automatically become part of the religion unless he recommended them, in which case they become Sunnah. Riding a camel is not considered part of the religion, for example.

Also, the Prophet pbuh normally married women much older than A'isha, so why would the exception and not the norm become the tradition to be followed?



the topic is discussed here at length:
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/5337-marriage-aisha-prophet-pbuh-6.html

Aisha (ra) was in fact engaged to someone else before her marriage to the prophet, I don't know if that is something you are aware? I also don't know if you are aware of biblical law, (whether or not you choose to follow them) plus secular laws not a century or so ago:

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law?
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

Our Sages state1 that "it is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry.'" It is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry'!
In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three.2 A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen.3 Add a comment
Footnotes

• 1. Talmud Kiddushin 41a.
• 2. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 37:1.
• 3. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 43:1.

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law? | AskMoses.com - Judaism, Ask a Rabbi - Live


this one is from bringhamton.edu
of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen,

website

Campaign to Raise the Legal Age of Consent, 1885-1914, Lesson Plan

and lastly,

Abishag Was a young virgin from the town of Shunem, North of Jezreel and Mount Gilboa, in the territory of Issachar. (Jos 19:17-23) She was "beautiful in the extreme" and was chosen by David's servants to become the nurse and companion of the king during his final days.
see 1Ki 1:1-4.
David was now about 70 years of age (2Sa 5:4, 5), and as a result of debilitation he had little body heat. Abishag waited on him during the day, doubtless brightening the surroundings with her youthful freshness and beauty, and at night she "lay in the king's bosom"


The age of consent or marriageability isn't an injunction to be of a certain age to follow in the lead of the prophet.. else people should also be marrying folks 20 years their senior, for his first wife was exactly that.. Do you find something wrong marrying a younger person but not an older one?

try some common sense please and familiarize yourself with your own books, with secular society laws and then put everything into perspective, so that someone's practices millenniums ago or even a century ago can be put into proper context rather than made into some sort of religious injunction!

 

[Zafran]

salaam

Yes its one rule for Islam - but another for his own religion. Its like talking to a brick wall.

peace

 

[CosmicPathos]

Being selfish is good.

Why? By being selfish, one ensures that one tries to benefit oneself to the maximum. If one properly benefits himself then and only then will he be in a position or would want to benefit others, at least I would.

I do not have any moral obligation to be good to humans at the expense of being good to myself. That is how I view world from secular perspective. And I cannot be wrong because its my choice based on what benefits me. Everyone has the right to make their choices. No one's choice is superior to other's. As such you cannot call a self-sacrificing humanitarian atheist to be better than a selfish atheist.

Islamically, I am wrong though.

 

[Asiyah3]

The Koran says:

You've been long enough in the forum to know that it's called the Qur'aan.

"There is a good example in Allah's apostle" (33:21). So it has relevance to this thread, do we simply accept that because a certain persoin performed and act it is automatically 'good' and the act itself need not be considered?

Hugo you are disregarding too many things. You can't just say that a fifty year-old man marrying a 9 year old = wrong and so claim that their marriage was wrong. Allah's messenger's (Peace and blessings be upon him) marriage with 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) was divinely decreed and it had religious purposes. She was a great scholars in Islam and conveyed us over a thousand hadiths. In addition, you seem to forget that Allah's messenger (pbuh) and 'Aisha were very happy together and they loved and cared for each other dearly.

Here can we discuss its moral importance and what it has done, and is still doing, to destroy the moral and mental fibre of Muslim men and women. A fifty-year-old man marries a six-year-old girl and consummates their marriage when she turns nine. The question is simple was this act a crime or an example, indeed an ideal example to be followed?

The prophet's (pbuh) patience and understanding, love, tenderness, care and the way he (pbuh) treated Aisha is a great example to be learned from.

If we step aside from the event itself and look at the religious and legal legitimization it has been accorded it is the moral example that the individual Muslim extracts from this incident which invest it with its importance and gravity. So Islamic custom attaches no value to childhood. A child is his father's property, who has the right to dispose of him as he would of any other property. When a mother picks up her young daughter of no more than nine years and places her in the arms of a man her grandfather's age, her daughter's child-hood has surely been irreparably violated. When the mother's action acquired religious and legal legitimacy, it became a way of life for fourteen centuries. I cannot see any other way to view this but I wait to see what others might add.

It was narrated from Khansa’ bint Khizaam al-Ansaariyyah that her father married her off when she had been previously married, and she did not like that. She went to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he annulled the marriage. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4845.

‘Aa’ishah reported that a girl came to her and said, “My father married me to his brother’s son in order to raise his social standing, and I did not want this marriage [I was forced into it].” ‘Aa’ishah said, “Sit here until the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) comes. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came and she told him about the girl. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent for her father, then he gave the girl the choice of what to do. She said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I have accepted what my father did, but I wanted to prove something to other women.” (Reported by al-Nisaa’i, 3217).

If a woman doesn't want to be married, Islam grants her her rights for divorce (Khula').

The wife of Thaabit ibn Qays ibn Shammaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I do not find any fault with Thaabit ibn Qays in his character or his religious commitment, but I do not want to commit any act of kufr after becoming a Muslim.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her, “Will you give back his garden?” Because he had given her a garden as her mahr. She said, “Yes.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Thaabit: “Take back your garden, and divorce her.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5273).

That's some food for thought.

 

[Hugo]

But Hugo you are disregarding many things. You can't just say that a fifty year-old man marrying a 9 year old =wrong and so claim that their marriage was wrong. Allah's messenger's (Peace and blessings be upon him) marriage with 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) was divinely decreed and it had religious purposes. She was a great scholars in Islam and conveyed us over a thousand hadiths. In addition, you seem to forget that Allah's messenger (pbuh) and 'Aisha were very happy together and they loved and cared for each other dearly.

Interesting reply, but I think if you read my post again I am not stating it is wrong or right and it occurred 1400 years ago. But any modern Western reader will feel only shock and condemnation when they read Aisha's words not only towards the Prophet but towards Aisha's parents. So my point is to ask you do you think the prophet's example here was a good one, one to be followed and secondly, what impact on the rights of woman and the responsibility of parents towards their children does a story like that have? Alternatively, are you saying that no lessons are drawn or can be drawn from this story, it had no impact on Islamic law, it is a one-off and only of historical interest?

 

[جوري]

Interesting reply, but I think if you read my post again I am not stating it is wrong or right and it occurred 1400 years ago. But any modern Western reader will feel only shock and condemnation when they read Aisha's words not only towards the Prophet but towards Aisha's parents. So my point is to ask you do you think the prophet's example here was a good one, one to be followed and secondly, what impact on the rights of woman and the responsibility of parents towards their children does a story like that have? Alternatively, are you saying that no lessons are drawn or can be drawn from this story, it had no impact on Islamic law, it is a one-off and only of historical interest?

Did you read anything I have posted at all?
1- that the age of consent in the west was 7 in states such as Delaware for instance.. do the 'modern western readers' feel shock at that?
2- that just because this was the norm millenniums ago doesn't mean that it is incorporated as part of the religion and incorporated into sunnah anymore than the prophet's marriage to a woman 20 yrs his senior!-- unlike christianity divorce is always an option in Islam if there were a coercion or the woman isn't satisfied in her marriage!
3- that this is in fact common so whether the 'modern western reader' has shed his judeo/christian roots or secular ones, there is in fact no getting away from them?

What ails you that you persist in posing already answered questions? Are you simply looking to elicit a particular reply that will not cater to reality as history records biblical or secular but only to your very narrow world views?

 

[Asiyah3]

Interesting reply, but I think if you read my post again I am not stating it is wrong or right and it occurred 1400 years ago.

You especially highlighted the one-sided part that a fifty-year-old man married a six-year-old and then consummated their marriage at the age of nine. And then you asked if it is a crime or an ideal example to be followed. So yeah, as if you're saying that the Allah's messenger's (pbuh) marrying a nine-year-old and so by that we are supposed to judge. Even though there is a decent explanation of the age matter well-explained in sis τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ's post. Hopefully my point is clear.

So my point is to ask you do you think the prophet's example here was a good one, one to be followed

That happened in a totally different time. If you want me to answer to the question that can a guy who lived at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) with the same circumstances and conditions do the same thing then i'll say that if the girl has reached the age of puberty and is willing to marry the guy and she's not forced to it and the guy is understanding, caring, respectful and righteous then I see nothing to revolt against.

I used the word can, because as τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ put it; the actions which the Prophet (pbuh) did do not automatically become part of the religion unless he recommended them, in which case they become Sunnah.

and secondly, what impact on the rights of woman and the responsibility of parents towards their children does a story like that have?

The "responsibility" of parents to be learned from that story is that they should marry their daughter to a righteous husband.

Alternatively, are you saying that no lessons are drawn or can be drawn from this story, it had no impact on Islamic law, it is a one-off and only of historical interest?

The marriage has had great benefits and impacts on Islamic laws, can't even count how many laws where lead thanks to 'Aisha's role and the hadiths, may Allah be pleased with her.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

It was not long ago where 10 years old were getting married in the UK.
A child is no longer a child once she reached puberty, scientifically. The normal age of starting puberty for girl is 8. There is no set age whereby a child physically mature. Some girls can physically mature at 9. And there is no set age in psychology either, the opinions varies. Some say the age people mature psychologically is 25. Are we going to say a man who marries a girl aged 22 is child abuse or any other forms of psychologically abuse? There is no real evidence to suggest a girl of aged nine cannot be mature physically and psychologically. However it is very very rare, Muslims should take this into account.

The thing is that in Islam, the parents nor the girls get any extra reward for marrying under the age of puberty or just passed puberty but allah (swt) may punish those who endanger their children. And if the father arranges the marriage, they still need the woman/young girl consent. Some marry their daughters off young but in order for the marriage to be valid, she should be physically and psychologically mature and she should be able to give consent. When i mean consent i do not mean when parents come to their daughters and say “oh you are going to marry this man today” indicating no option to say no that she is forced to say yes. Until then the marriage is not valid. Unfortunately, there are still some cultures that practice forced marriages and none is more susceptible to force marriage then those of young age.

There is loads of information on other threads in this forum that goes into great detail and is more knowledgeable then mines. Take care

 

[Supreme]

A child is no longer a child once she reached puberty, scientifically. The normal age of starting puberty for girl is 8. There is no set age whereby a child physically mature. Some girls can physically mature at 9. And there is no set age in psychology either, the opinions varies. Some say the age people mature psychologically is 25. Are we going to say a man who marries a girl aged 22 is child abuse or any other forms of psychologically abuse? There is no real evidence to suggest a girl of aged nine cannot be mature physically and psychologically. However it is very very rare, Muslims should take this into account.

Menstruation is hardly indicative of a girl's physical (and even more importantly, psychological) maturity; and while the "age of consent" is indeed pretty much based on arbitrary cultural preferences for the most part, sexual advances *do* have a devastating effect on the minds of children who have not yet matured to the point where their psyche has been sufficiently developed

 

[جوري]

you don't know what actually is a measure of 'maturity' physical or psychological.. given the enormous divorce rate in the west:

http://www.divorcerate.org/

a successful union could be an adequate measure of 'maturity' though not necessarily but given the stats, I'd hazard speak at all of anyone's marriage because of a preconceived and telescopic nonesuch that was created early to middle of last century!

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Menstruation is hardly indicative of a girl's physical (and even more importantly, psychological) maturity; and while the "age of consent" is indeed pretty much based on arbitrary cultural preferences for the most part, sexual advances *do* have a devastating effect on the minds of children who have not yet matured to the point where their psyche has been sufficiently developed

I did not say menstruation was indicative of a girl's physical and psychological maturity. I clearly said puberty, that includes other aspect of development such as breast, hip and the mind. All I said was puberty can start at 8 and all other aspect of development can develop by 9. I also clearly stated that this was very very rare and Muslims should take that into account. I clearly stated that there is not age set psychologically or scientifically. But if a child starts their puberty aged 9, s/he is no longer a child, there at the stage of adolescences and some even say adult. I say adolescences.

Every one of us develops differently; some don’t mature still age 18. The parents are the most knowledgeable about their own children but let face it culture has much more of greater impact then education. In fact those that still marry their children young that have not clearly developed psychologically or physically often come from a poor background, village of some sort i.e. parts of Yemen.

take care:statisfie

 

[Supreme]

I did not say menstruation was indicative of a girl's physical and psychological maturity. I clearly said puberty, that includes other aspect of development such as breast, hip and the mind. All I said was puberty can start at 8 and all other aspect of development can develop by 9. I also clearly stated that this was very very rare and Muslims should take that into account. I clearly stated that there is not age set psychologically or scientifically. But if a child starts their puberty aged 9, s/he is no longer a child, there at the stage of adolescences and some even say adult. I say adolescences.

Every one of us develops differently; some don’t mature still age 18. The parents are the most knowledgeable about their own children but let face it culture has much more of greater impact then education. In fact those that still marry their children young that have not clearly developed psychologically or physically often come from a poor background, village of some sort i.e. parts of Yemen.

take care:statisfie

Yeah, I take it that some Middle Eastern countries still marry pre-pubescent girls off to elderly men. I remember the case of that Yemenite girl who walked hundreds of miles just to make some court take care of her divorce.

 

[Supreme]

There is no particular, magical age line that could be drawn to accomodate all, as each individual develops differently.

But suffice to say that a child who has just entered puberty (as evidenced by the onset of menstruation) lacks both the physical and the mental maturity necessary to handle sexual advances without suffering trauma.

 

[جوري]

Yeah, I take it that some Middle Eastern countries still marry pre-pubescent girls off to elderly men. I remember the case of that Yemenite girl who walked hundreds of miles just to make some court take care of her divorce.

marriage is at least more noble than incest and child porn.. very prevalent in the west!

 

[جوري]

There is no particular, magical age line that could be drawn to accomodate all, as each individual develops differently.

But suffice to say that a child who has just entered puberty (as evidenced by the onset of menstruation) lacks both the physical and the mental maturity necessary to handle sexual advances without suffering trauma.

suffice it to say because you said so?
we have people entering universities at the age of four and nominated for a Nobel at 12 like Gregory Smith

http://express.howstuffworks.com/ep-gsmith.htm

akrit jaswal a surgeon at age 7
aelita andre painting at the age of 2
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=aeli...&oq=elita+andrea&gs_rfai=&fp=652ba8543c4f91ab

people running kingdoms at age 13.

and you say obviously? the only obvious thing is that you are used to lazy assed under-achievers in every sense of the word and think that, that should be the norm!

 

[Asiyah3]

There is no particular, magical age line that could be drawn to accomodate all, as each individual develops differently.

But suffice to say that a child who has just entered puberty (as evidenced by the onset of menstruation) lacks both the physical and the mental maturity necessary to handle sexual advances without suffering trauma.

I see here and there 11-14 year-olds dating? (and carrying beer bottles during weekends on the streets.)

 

[Supreme]

Gossamer, if you have nothing else to add to the conversation other than strawman arguments or ad hominems, then kindly bow out of the discussion.

 

[جوري]

I see here and there 11-14 year-olds dating? (and carrying beer bottles during weekends on the streets.)

well that is different of course.. they're just 'being kids'

anyhow in light of this.. I thought I'd end it on this high note

 

[جوري]

Gossamer, if you have nothing else to add to the conversation other than strawman arguments or ad hominems, then kindly bow out of the discussion.

adhoms when you mention young overachievers, mature functioning 'children' who put your theories to total annihilation .. but not strawman or adhoms, when you tinkle your pearls and add 'obviously'?

you take every post to a whole new level of folly that it isn't even worth it to dignify you with a response.. if it weren't so relaxing and virtually appealing to do so!

 

[FS123]

Some type of good everybody realizes, some things people consider good are relative and dependent on culture. In the end what matters is what God considers good.