What makes something good?

[Supreme]

1- No one cares for that you regard. Joseph was said to be 95 when he married Mary a girl of 12~13 so frankly the hypocrisy seems to fall only on your blind eyes!

I'm sorry, but do you make half of this up? Who the heck told you that Mary was 12-13 when she was married? And what nonsensical source states Joseph was 95?

 

[Hugo]

Again, there are no implications with regard to law and I don't have problems at all with the incident, something are right for some people and not for others.

Well perhaps here we end our discussion as there is no possibility of common ground, you see no shame or discredit in a 50 year old man consummating (and we must not shy away from exactly what that means) a marriage to a nine year old girl who had been minutes before playing on a swing in the garden. I don't deny that the world over, Muslim counties included, that children are abused and we should all be shocked to the core when we see it but you display no shock, your own shameful words condemn you "Again, there are no implications with regard to law and I don't have problems at all with the incident, some things are right for some people and not for others - Josef Fritzl who physically assaulted, sexually abused, and raped his daughter for 26 years would find comfort in your words

 

[Salahudeen]

I'm sorry, but do you make half of this up? Who the heck told you that Mary was 12-13 when she was married? And what nonsensical source states Joseph was 95?

Regarding the Marriage of Mary to Joseph, Catholic Encyclopaedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm), says:

"When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had
six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place."

Note: That article on Catholic Encyclopaedia obtains its information from early
Christian writing including apocryphal writings.

The Catholic Encyclopaedia goes on to conclude "...retained the belief that St. Joseph was an old man at the time of marriage with the Mother of God." If Christians do not find any difficulty in accepting "Mother of God" (according to Catholic Encyclopaedia), who was 12-14, marrying a 90 year old man then why do they raise objection towards the marriage of Aisha (RA) to the Prophet?

 

[Hugo]

Peace, Would you ask those same questions about the marriage to Khadijah (May Allah be pleased with her)?

Well yes I would in this case since the prophet's example is regarded as paramount in Islam so one assume that everything he did or said can be, ought to be examined?

 

[Hugo]

It is off point but lets end it here. The trouble with this nonsense about Joseph is that it gets endlessly circulated through Islamic websites so all sight of its source are lost. Most scholar however agree the notion comes from The History of Joseph the Carpenter an apocryphal text probably written in Egypt in the 5th century and purports to be an extended statement that Mary was a virgin not merely prior to and during the birth of Christ, but throughout her life. It is framed as a biography of Joseph dictated by Jesus, and describes how Joseph, aged 90, following the death of his first wife and already with four sons and two daughters, is given charge of the twelve year old Mary, who lives in his household raising his youngest son James the Less, along with Judas, until she is ready to be married at age 14½. It then paraphrases "James", stopping at the point of Jesus' birth. Joseph's death at the age of 111, attended by angels and asserting the perpetual virginity of Mary, takes up approximately half the story.

In terms of this thread it is simply a distraction designed to defect from consideration of the Aisha incident - that is it is never an argument that something is legitimate because someone else did something similar at some time. If you want to argue that case for deciding whether something is good or bad then do that not just fling in spurious materials.

 

[Asiyah3]

Well yes I would in this case since the prophet's example is regarded as paramount in Islam so one assume that everything he did or said can be, ought to be examined?

My point is I fail to see his (pbuh) marrying a woman 'this and that' age or a woman with a specific height or hair color is ought to be followed. On the other hand, I can proclaim that marrying a righteous woman leads to successful life.

It was narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four things that are essential for happiness: a righteous wife, a spacious home, a good neighbour and a sound means of transportation. And there are four things that make one miserable: a bad neighbour, a bad wife, a small house and a bad means of transportation.”

Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (1232) and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah (282) and Saheeh al-Targheeb (1914).

 

[Hugo]

My point is I fail to see his (pbuh) marrying a woman 'this and that' age or a woman with a specific height or hair color is ought to be followed. On the other hand, I can proclaim that marrying a righteous woman leads to successful life. It was narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four things that are essential for happiness: a righteous wife, a spacious home, a good neighbour and a sound means of transportation. And there are four things that make one miserable: a bad neighbour, a bad wife, a small house and a bad means of transportation.”Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan in his Saheeh (1232) and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah (282) and Saheeh al-Targheeb (1914).

I think I find myself agreeing with you that we need not blindly follow any example or for select a spouse specific reasons. I love your quote though more for its stark contrasts that the ideas but would add the notion of love of course as being a kind of cornerstone, or you might say saheed, of any good marriage.

 

[جوري]

I'm sorry, but do you make half of this up? Who the heck told you that Mary was 12-13 when she was married? And what nonsensical source states Joseph was 95?

check out your bible and do some math.. other than that if you can't tie the points together, then no one can help you there!

Well perhaps here we end our discussion as there is no possibility of common ground, you see no shame or discredit in a 50 year old man consummating (and we must not shy away from exactly what that means) a marriage to a nine year old girl who had been minutes before playing on a swing in the garden.

as opposed to a 95 year old man copulating with a 12 year old? you are right.. I don't have much in common with pure hypocrites..
btw, I still play on the swings and with nintendo wii and I have a doctorate, so I am not sure if you had a point with that picture you painted?

I don't deny that the world over, Muslim counties included, that children are abused and we should all be shocked to the core when we see it but you display no shock, your own shameful words condemn you "Again, there are no implications with regard to law and I don't have problems at all with the incident, some things are right for some people and not for others - Josef Fritzl who physically assaulted, sexually abused, and raped his daughter for 26 years would find comfort in your words

rather he'd be confused with yours.. you feign goodness, but beneath it all, you are two faced hypocrite who can't be bothered to see things in his own book before pointing the finger.. further feels the freedom to define for people and I am not talking sick incestuous pedophiles but regular everyday folks for whatever reason, whether due to disability or life expectancy or customs the freedom to choose a contract that works for the satisfaction and well being of all parties.. it is so typical of you to bring everything sacred to the level of a cesspool that is on a level with your concocted and sanctimonious beliefs...

all the best as always!

 

[جوري]

It is off point but lets end it here. The trouble with this nonsense about Joseph is that it gets endlessly circulated through Islamic websites so all sight of its source are lost. Most scholar however agree the notion comes from The History of Joseph the Carpenter an apocryphal text probably written in Egypt in the 5th century and purports to be an extended statement that Mary was a virgin not merely prior to and during the birth of Christ, but throughout her life. It is framed as a biography of Joseph dictated by Jesus, and describes how Joseph, aged 90, following the death of his first wife and already with four sons and two daughters, is given charge of the twelve year old Mary, who lives in his household raising his youngest son James the Less, along with Judas, until she is ready to be married at age 14½. It then paraphrases "James", stopping at the point of Jesus' birth. Joseph's death at the age of 111, attended by angels and asserting the perpetual virginity of Mary, takes up approximately half the story.

In terms of this thread it is simply a distraction designed to defect from consideration of the Aisha incident - that is it is never an argument that something is legitimate because someone else did something similar at some time. If you want to argue that case for deciding whether something is good or bad then do that not just fling in spurious materials.

as for the accuracy of your apocrypha.. well it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things (we don't know which parts of your books to keep and which to throw out) and a half concocted religion can't be the word of God!.. what you choose to believe or not believe is also equally inconsequential.. what is of importance however is to understand that this was common for the culture and customs at the time, and I have no reservation whatsoever quoting sources upon sources from your bible that testify to the same thing..
as stated and repeatedly, this isn't the 'law' what is considered very appropriate thousands or even hundreds of years ago is of no relevance today.. anymore than treating tuberculosis with malaria is of relevance to the way we practice medicine today.. that had its rationale and was appropriate for its time.. I'll not pass judgment for instance that you are curing a man of a deadly disease by giving him a deadly disease.. it was cutting edge.. we equally have treatments today that do the same thing, make you impotent at the cost of curing you of a lymphoma.. which is more impressive for a person, impotence or death? It doesn't mean that a hundred years from now this will be the standard treatment or that we are all 'immoral' beings for opting for something so lethal..

again, this all shows your linear tract of thought, your inability to put things into historical perspective, or even the bare minimum which is reading what is being offered you and understanding it so that you are not posting the same question which is your bread and butter, hoping to elicit a response that will be satisfactory to you!

 

[Hugo]

as for the accuracy of your apocrypha.. well it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things (we don't know which parts of your books to keep and which to throw out) and a half concocted religion can't be the word of God!.. what you choose to believe or not believe is also equally inconsequential.. what is of importance however is to understand that this was common for the culture and customs at the time, and I have no reservation whatsoever quoting sources upon sources from your bible that testify to the same thing..

You do seem to have a unique line in consistency, you quote with seeming authority from apocryphal writing and then tell us they are not to be trusted so you are supporting your own argument with evidence YOU consider false. This all shows your linear tract of thought, your inability to put things into historical perspective, or even the bare minimum which is reading from the source or even knowing what it is so there is no possibility with you of finding any common ground or shared though not necessarily an agreed understanding so you post spurious answers more in the hope of deflecting the discussion or preferably ending it. If you are wrong or make a mistake do what the rest of us do and own it then move on.

 

[جوري]

You do seem to have a unique line in consistency, you quote with seeming authority from apocryphal writing and then tell us they are not to be trusted so you are supporting your own argument with evidence YOU consider false. This all shows your linear tract of thought, your inability to put things into historical perspective, or even the bare minimum which is reading from the source or even knowing what it is so there is no possibility with you of finding any common ground or shared though not necessarily an agreed understanding so you post spurious answers more in the hope of deflecting the discussion or preferably ending it. If you are wrong or make a mistake do what the rest of us do and own it then move on.

That was funny... it doesn't matter whether or not I subscribe to your beliefs.. what matters is that the contents of your beliefs aren't in concert with your own 'moral compass' once you resolve that issue to satisfaction can you come questioning cultural or Islamic practices!

all the best

 

[Predator]

Well perhaps here we end our discussion as there is no possibility of common ground, you see no shame or discredit in a 50 year old man consummating (and we must not shy away from exactly what that means) a marriage to a nine year old girl who had been minutes before playing on a swing in the garden.

What about your own lord Jesus ? He had no shame ordering the Killing of young Palestinian virgins and then consumating himself with 32 of them ?

Numbers 31:17-18

Now therefore KILL every male among the little ones, and
KILL every woman (female) that hath known man by lying
(having sex) with him.But keep ALIVE for yourselves all the GIRLS and all the
women who are VIRGINS."

There was no saliva test for virginity in those old days, the only way for those Jewish soldiers to find out whether a woman was a virgin to rape and verify it himself

Numbers 31:40 and 16,000 virgin girls, of whom 32 were the LORD's share.

So Jesus almighty also needed his share in the pound of flesh and so 32 were his share and he cohabited with 32 raped and ravished palestinian girls in heaven .

Imagine In a Book of God , God giving instruction that you verify whether the women is a virgin or not and uttering this filth and dirt , "kill every little child male or female .Kill them all "

Why the double standard ?

 

[Supreme]

check out your bible and do some math.. other than that if you can't tie the points together, then no one can help you there!

Why am I not surprised- backing down when approached for a source. You see, this is what happens when you create an argument and don't have the intellect/capacity to back it up.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Does anyone know how Aisha looked? How this (or in fact most) nine years old backed then look like? Her behaviour?

I think it unfair to be judgement based on what today’s society is like. We have to take into account the environment she was brought up in too. The environment has huge impact on how someone matures as well.

I think one has to be foolish to make judgement on someone they have not seen! And someone that was 1000s years ago!

Like I said it was not long ago when 10 years old were getting married in the UK. And there still is no age limit when someone matures now! So if no one can establish an age limit when someone matures yet, how dare you judge this man especially when you personally do not know how Aisha looked like and acted like?
Oh I am playing in the swing right now! Therefore I am still a bloody child! Bo!

 

[espada]

Is friendship good?

Namely the trust between close friends?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

@hugo

I clearly advised you to read on this matter in this forum as this particular "issue" was discussed again and again in this forum. It would also limit your ingorance on the matter as you are incorrect about Aisha having no say on the marriage and you clearly think she was forced to marry and to stay with the prophet mohammed (pbuh) when there evidence to suggest she wasnt. Please do your research. Take care sister


best regards
sweet106

 

[Supreme]

you don't know what actually is a measure of 'maturity' physical or psychological.. given the enormous divorce rate in the west:

http://www.divorcerate.org/

a successful union could be an adequate measure of 'maturity' though not necessarily but given the stats, I'd hazard speak at all of anyone's marriage because of a preconceived and telescopic nonesuch that was created early to middle of last century!

Maturity plays a very minor role in that context, unless we use it in a *much* more colloquial sense that could even attest immaturity in fully grown adults well past their twenties or even thirties. The complex socio-economic reasons for increased divorce rates in the west are an interesting topic, but none that would link it to the debate on child abuse.

 

[جوري]

Why am I not surprised- backing down when approached for a source. You see, this is what happens when you create an argument and don't have the intellect/capacity to back it up.

the source is included with the original claim.. all you are to do it but click on it and then superimpose it on your biblical passages. I'd do that before I speak of 'intellect' the term and what it entails eludes you, but I have no desire to descend down to word play with an ambitious child!

Maturity plays a very minor role in that context, unless we use it in a *much* more colloquial sense that could even attest immaturity in fully grown adults well past their twenties or even thirties. The complex socio-economic reasons for increased divorce rates in the west are an interesting topic, but none that would link it to the debate on child abuse.

We are not debating 'child abuse' -- I don't know whether to be amused or annoyed by your lack of reading and comprehension!

all the best

 

[espada]

Is friendship good?

Namely the trust between close friends?

This is for either Mr. Supreme or Mr. Hugo (both) to answer, if it does not trouble them.

Please indulge me.

 

[Supreme]

the source is included with the original claim.. all you are to do it but click on it and then superimpose it on your biblical passages. I'd do that before I speak of 'intellect' the term and what it entails eludes you, but I have no desire to descend down to word play with an ambitious child!

I think it was when I saw that you were arguing off the back of Apocrypha, which no Christian denomination includes in their canon, that was when I realized just how bad things were for you on the argument front.

We are not debating 'child abuse' -- I don't know whether to be amused or annoyed by your lack of reading and comprehension!

You were equating marriage to the betrothal of underage minors, or, in legal terms, child abuse.