Conspiracies: Denialism or Scepticism?

[Hugo]

Just to get back on track can I ask some questions here - there is no doubt that conspiracy theories exist and some times they turn out to be true and sometimes not. If I take say holocaust denial or suggesting 9/11 was a CIA planned event and so on what would you say to the following questions

1. Do you think that truth will always win out in the end?
2. Are there any sort of rules for routing out the truth or testing a theory that we might use?

 

[جوري]

But you have added nothing, in post 16 you claimed there were "not thousands of deaths" because of swine flu but I have shown from sound sources that there were that there were. You then bang on about vaccine dangers but all you can offer is anecdote with no supporting evidence. It seems you can add nothing of value about epidemiology and do not understand risk and how risk factors are combined and you have added nothing of value to the theme of this thread which is about how easy all of us can be duped by conspiracy theorists be they tobacco companies, governments, hoaxers or holocaust deniers. This thread is about teasing out the truth not getting caught by rhetoric or alarmists.

I have added what is of relevance and if you'd scroll back to the second page and read (I know it is difficult for you to accept factoids that don't cater to your linear tracts) you'd embarked upon:



One basis for the extrapolation is surveys asking people who claim to have flu-like symptoms whether they sought medical care, and if so, if their case was tested. It’s possible that many of those who didn’t get tested were suffering from a different ailment. For surveys where people reported having the flu, “we made the assumption that all of those had H1N1 flu, which we know isn’t true,” said Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard School of Public Health. He added, “Each one of these approaches has its strengths and limitations. The only way is to try them all, and see how they compare.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124217724145913411.html

furthermore, we don't what it is you are fighting for or against? does the swine flu exist? sure it does, was it assumed to be of pandemic proportions absolutely.. did that justify creating an over night vaccine and forcing the masses to take it with absolutely no transparency or a risk assessment.. absolutely not.
There is an art to immunology that seems to be completely lost to you, because in fact you suffer what it is you are so ready to accuse others of, those in fact who have dedicated their lives to this field.
Whatever the case whether regular flu or swine flu, there are groups more at risk than others, and even with we have some excellent anti-virals to be given within the first 72 hrs. that will cut down on the symptomology completely.
What you want is to create havoc with worthless information simply because it serves your own telescopic view of the picture or else brand others either adding nothing of value, completely against immunizations, un-scientific.. all in fact which seem to echo you to a T. It is apparent that it is very difficult for you to concede that not only do you not know everything, but that your adamant insistence that you do, isn't only dangerous to yourself but to others who might be fooled by your sense of bravado if nothing else. I ask you to desist gauging in topics at least as far as the fields of medicine and immunology are concerned if you don't know what the hell you are talking about! Which you don't
live vaccines are excellent, there is a sub-group of the population where they would convert and spell disaster, regular vaccines are excellent but some are manufactured in eggs and aren't suitable for those with egg allergies, Rubella sure is excellent, but shouldn't be given to a pregnant woman in the fist trimester.. try to imagine that there is an entire field and a science to things you deem, conspiracies in order that you should perpetuate a certain type of hysteria only from the other end of the spectrum-- further try to put things in categories so not for the sake of a topic do you lump everything under the same umbrella, you end up with no credibility whatsoever, just another man with tertiary third party information who fancies himself well studied!

Let me challenge you if your are so competent in this area -

that tickled me!

all the best

 

[جوري]

As an aside here, let me layout the ground rules for you (anyone who is interested in their rights) as a patient whether it has to do with vaccines or an orange flavored children chewable aspirin, blood transfusions or anything in between.
The golden rule of 'informed consent' denotes that you as a patient have a right to 5 things!
1- Nature of the procedure (pills/surgery/injection)
2-purpose
3-Benefits
4-Risks
5- and perhaps the most important 'alternate procedures/remedies' so that you as an individual and not through bullying, coercion, mass hysteria or intellectual dishonesty can make an informed decision about anything that will go in your body or have taken out of it.

gag clauses are a federal crime (at least here in the united states) just because something isn't clearly understood or seem viable as an option doesn't mean that your physician has the right to withhold a conversation about it as that would be in direct violation of your rights.
understanding your five pieces of information doesn't mean you are giving in to conspiracy theories, or denying solid research, or have no understanding of the basics of statistics.. It means that your basic rights to autonomy and decision making is solely yours without a label hanging over your head.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Myth 2 - The vaccine isn't safe, it has been rushed through tests and the last time there was a swine flu scare the vaccine hurt people.

I remember this one. There were a lot of people who believed this, on zero evidence, including some friends of mine. I asked them a number of times "Its not safe? That's important to know. Where did you hear this and what study showed it?". They never had an answer beyond a friend told them or a friend read the study and told them about it, or a friend of a friend. In a health scare people are too often prone to not look at the actual evidence and instead react to a false positive out of a fear for safety.

I think this is instinctive and born from a long evolutionary history of false positives being at worst embarassing and missed threats being deadly, going back to our cave man times. This carries over to us today, now in an age where false positives are far more dangerous.

Anyway, just my two cents. Now back to the squabling over semantics and derails.

 

[جوري]

that is just Horatio.. no studies to show long term safety and efficacy no studies to show lack of safety and efficacy, you are basically putting something in your body that has been literally manufactured over night.. and if you had taken the regular vaccine you'll have already have half of the component swine flu vaccine!..

there is nothing to squabble over.. there is no point arguing with a couple of fools!

 

[CosmicPathos]

Now Hugo will teach us vaccinology? I am well versed in microbiology. But I didnt get the swine flu shot. I do not want to because it wont be of benefit to me. THe virus mutates at sky rocketing rates and having immunity to it is probably equal to having no immunity. Of course if pigs are not around, mutation rates might go down as they are the breeding grounds but genetic drift will still be occuring if not genetic shift.

 

[Hugo]

Now Hugo will teach us vaccinology? I am well versed in microbiology. But I didnt get the swine flu shot. I do not want to because it wont be of benefit to me. THe virus mutates at sky rocketing rates and having immunity to it is probably equal to having no immunity. Of course if pigs are not around, mutation rates might go down as they are the breeding grounds but genetic drift will still be occuring if not genetic shift.

How do you know it will not benefit you - that of course is the dilemma we all face and it hardly matters whether you are expert of not. The trouble with what you say is that if indeed it is mutating at sky-rocketing speeds (give us some references to check this out) we are all in for big big trouble if it turns nasty - so tell us what you as an expert would plan to do to avert a disaster - give up on vaccines, walk around with a mask, slaughter every possible breeding ground - what??

Do you know how pigs got the flu virus in the first place?

What we need is a faster vaccine or a universal flu vaccine. When our immune system attacks a flu virus, it mainly targets haemagglutin and to a lesser extent, neuramindase. Unfortunately, these proteins mutate rapidly, so out immune 'memory' doesn't protect us from new flu strains. However, the protruding part of the M2 ion channel changes very little, you being an expert can now explain why this might lead to a universal vaccine?

 

[Hugo]

Except people weren't ignoring the fact that it might be a pandemic, people were apprehensive of putting something in their body that was manufactured over-night of shady ingredients ......

Can you tell us what these shady ingredient were?

 

[tango92]

whats the big deal with swine flu vaccinations anyway? its a normal flu just a bit worse.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Speaking of germs, I'm currently reading "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond. Any of you guys read this book? Its a really interesting perspective at how geography played a major role in who developed farming, domesticated animals, got the deadliest germs, and then spread them around the world conquering the rest of the globe. It explains why the people who conquered the world did so, rather than being the conquered. Total aside, but thought I'd mention the book since I'm really enjoying the read so far.

 

[جوري]

Can you tell us what these shady ingredient were?

if we knew what the latter components of the vaccine were, perhaps we wouldn't be asking for transparency? I assume you've read my posts and came across that term several times?!

P.S. I'll be covering a bit of stats/epidemiology and ethics on my 'medical student review' thread you can follow there if you have a pure desire to learn which studies get approved which get binned and why.. there is no 'conspiracy' to it, just data/evidence based science-- when you have the fundamentals you'll find yourself in hysterics less often!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

whats the big deal with swine flu vaccinations anyway? its a normal flu just a bit worse.

That is how it turned out but what you are perhaps forgetting or did not realise was that H1N1 was a novel virus, it was unlike others we have seen so the way it might develop over the course of a flu season was unknown and unpredictable. For example, the 1918 flu virus was novel and it killed about 50 million world wide becoming much more virulent as the pandemic progressed - so that was the big deal, no one knew for sure what might happen so the kind of, if I may say so, frivolous throw away remarks like yours could only be made with the benefit of hindsight and a total lack of awareness to the danger posed when a new strain appears.

If you take a little time to look through WHO reports you will also see that indeed for most people it was much like seasonal flu but for a significant number, mainly young people, it was a killer. You may be aware of high technology life support machines called ECMO and again if you look through the reports the lives of very many people infected with H1N1 were only saved by this technology and it is a last resort technology at that.

 

[Pygoscelis]

How about the conspiracy theories surrounding Obama? The birther movement for example. I guess there wouldn't be anybody here who thinks Obama is a secret muslim plotting the downfall of the USA (this being a muslim board - but seriously on another board I go to some crazy people actually believe that). But is there anybody here who questions Obama's place of birth and says he's not qualified to be president? Such people keep demanding his birth certificate be made public (not knowing that this already has been addressed by Hawaii). They got so many requests for this that Hawaii had to shut down such requests (it was taking up way too much resource) and that fuelled the fires of the birthers further.

 

[Hugo]

How about the conspiracy theories surrounding Obama? The birther movement for example. I guess there wouldn't be anybody here who thinks Obama is a secret muslim plotting the downfall of the USA (this being a muslim board - but seriously on another board I go to some crazy people actually believe that). But is there anybody here who questions Obama's place of birth and says he's not qualified to be president? Such people keep demanding his birth certificate be made public (not knowing that this already has been addressed by Hawaii). They got so many requests for this that Hawaii had to shut down such requests (it was taking up way too much resource) and that fuelled the fires of the birthers further.

This is an interesting one because in the end no matter what he is or is not he got elected. But I guess this is one of those where you really have to want to believe and once you get that far then nothing, no amount of evidence will turn such deniers from their chosen path. In the end though truth will out and this will be another conspiracy theory for someone to write a book about and make a lot of money.

 

[Hugo]

Just been looking through various threads and there is a theme one often find. It is not very prominent in this board but it is in others. That theme is that all Jews, Christians and Westerners hate Islam and want to destroy it. Wafa Sultan in her book "A God who Hates" tells powerfully how she was bombarded with this kind of thing when she was a child in school in Syria. Indeed she suggests that you cannot find a Muslim school that does not engage in that kind of victim rhetoric and of course the Qu'ran is not silent on the issue either. She now lives in America and she again tells how Muslims living there and enjoying its freedoms cannot escape from the idea that they are being watched and hunted down by those who hate Islam. Quoting Sultan:

Islam considered anything that happened to a Muslim outside the boundaries of the responsibility to fight to be fate, over which he could have no control, and accordingly, no responsibility. Islamic teachings gave Muslims the illusion that their fate was foreordained. It convinced them that every detail of their lives was predestined and that they had no power to influence events. The Qu'ran says: "Say: 'Nothing will befall us except what Allah has ordained'" (9:51). And Muhammad said in a hadith: "If something happens to you, do not say: 'If I had done that, such and such a thing would have happened.' Say, rather: Allah has ordained it so, and whatever He pleases He does.'" This call to submit to whatever fate ordains has helped to foster a dependent attitude and has convinced people that whatever happened in their lives occurred only as part of God's plan and at his command.

This attitude enables Muslims to avoid facing reality and also, to a great extent, helps to deprive them of their ability to feel guilt at the wretchedness of that reality. Muslims have never learned to engage in soul searching or to acknowledge where they might have gone wrong. As far as they are concerned, whatever happens is God's will and their faith does not either require them to regret their actions or consider them responsible for any consequences that might ensue.

You might like to comment on any aspect of what has been said here and if you indeed hold to the theory that all Jews and Christians and Westerners are bent on destroying Islam? Is it all just a conspiracy theory or is it true?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Um, maybe not so much Jews, but Christianity definitely IS bent on destroying competing religions. It wants to turn everybody into a Christian. Islam is the same. Perhaps this is muslims projecting their will to destroy the west's "values" and replace them with islamic ones, so that they see the opposite.

 

[Zafran]

Um, maybe not so much Jews, but Christianity definitely IS bent on destroying competing religions. It wants to turn everybody into a Christian. Islam is the same. Perhaps this is muslims projecting their will to destroy the west's "values" and replace them with islamic ones, so that they see the opposite.

I think the more serious problem here is the west and its obsession in creating clones of its self all over the world - and they are using violence to achieve it.

 

[Hugo]

I think the more serious problem here is the west and its obsession in creating clones of its self all over the world - and they are using violence to achieve it.

I cannot make much sense of this, where is this monolithic West 'making' clones? That is more or less the conspiracy theory held in Muslim minds that I spoke of and it cannot have escaped your notice that Muslims themselves do exactly the same - they become refugees (the top 10 refugee generating nations are Muslim) and are accepted as full citizens of the West and then try to recreate the society and culture that drove them out in the first place and part of that is the evolving conspiracy theory in Muslim minds that its all the fault of the West

 

[Hugo]

Um, maybe not so much Jews, but Christianity definitely IS bent on destroying competing religions. It wants to turn everybody into a Christian. Islam is the same. Perhaps this is muslims projecting their will to destroy the west's "values" and replace them with islamic ones, so that they see the opposite.

This is just rubbish - I have never every heard a Christian preacher or Minister anywhere speak about destroying competing religions - another conspiracy theory? Of course Christians want to share what they consider to be good news, the gospels but there is no force and it is a matter of personal conviction. One is NOT born a Christian one becomes one by choice.

 

[aadil77]

This is just rubbish - I have never every heard a Christian preacher or Minister anywhere speak about destroying competing religions - another conspiracy theory? Of course Christians want to share what they consider to be good news, the gospels but there is no force and it is a matter of personal conviction. One is NOT born a Christian one becomes one by choice.

don't know about over here but in america you'd certainly get that impression