women

[HAWA*~]

Ayesha (ra) led the army against Ali (ra). She later repented from this mistake of hers. The fact that she repented shows that even she knew that Islam did not give that leeway to women on battlefield. But again, those men on battlefield were courageous. Muslim men today are not even a quarter of them.

Aisha repented because she was on the wrong side in the battle of the camel not because she led an army or participated in war. Many women have been on the battle field such as Umm Umarah (Nasibah) whether in leadership postions or not. I've also heard that one of Ali's later wives also led some other women in battle but I cant seem to find it now.
I agree with others in that women have different roles then men in islam and that is way the position of prophethood was not bestowed on women. We have children, we go through menstrual cycles etc.
I dont believe it is a mental deficiency because I think the creator would have mentioned it when the story of balqees who led her nation to prosperity and wealth was mentioned in the quran.

 

[HAWA*~]

^Khawlah Bint Al-Azwar

 

[جوري]

'Naqisat 3aql' doesn't equal mental deficiency, rather emotional lability at times.. not sure who is translating Arabic incorrectly to people and then others latch on it.. otherwise mostly great posts and points of views here..

 

[CosmicPathos]

Aisha repented because she was on the wrong side in the battle of the camel not because she led an army or participated in war. Many women have been on the battle field such as Umm Umarah (Nasibah) whether in leadership postions or not. I've also heard that one of Ali's later wives also led some other women in battle but I cant seem to find it now.
I agree with others in that women have different roles then men in islam and that is way the position of prophethood was not bestowed on women. We have children, we go through menstrual cycles etc.
I dont believe it is a mental deficiency because I think the creator would have mentioned it when the story of balqees who led her nation to prosperity and wealth was mentioned in the quran.

I never denied women "taking part" in Islamic battles. One can even argue that sexually satisfying one's soldier husband on battlefield at night is also taking part in the battle. Anyways.

Leadership positions are not allowed for women in army or battles unless probably all men have been martyred? If you have evidence for the allowance, bring forth.

Was Balqees subject to Islamic Sharia? Dont take things out of context from Quran. We are talking about Muhammadi Sharia, not of the old Prophets.


@Karl: I love your reply to sweet.

 

[CosmicPathos]

'Naqisat 3aql' doesn't equal mental deficiency, rather emotional lability at times.. not sure who is translating Arabic incorrectly to people and then others latch on it.. otherwise mostly great posts and points of views here..

yea it cant mean "mental deficiency." probably more to do with judgment in regards to religious matters? I really dont know. Wallahu AAlim. I dont think hormonal changes really effect women's thinking at all! I mean female scientists, does their productivity decrease when they go through menses? I dont think so.

 

[HAWA*~]

I never denied women "taking part" in Islamic battles. One can even argue that sexually satisfying one's soldier husband on battlefield at night is also taking part in the battle. Anyways.

Leadership positions are not allowed for women in army or battles. If you have evidence, bring forth.

I think the fact that Aisha led even though she later repented because she realized she was on the wrong side is evidence enough. Also the second women Khawlah I mentioned who was married to Ali lead other women in battle against the Romans.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Does the juries include ministers?


@ AhmadibnNasroon

The issue are presented in neither contemporary nor for just specific places, it is widespread many Muslim countries and such practices were carried for centuries. Some Muslim cultures believe it is perfectly okay to beat their wives with weapon let alone hands. And many Muslim cultures from Asia, Middle East to Africa believe you must accept marriage arranged for you because Islam (that is what they say) says you should obey your parents to the extent that they have to accept anyone presented to them at any given age. So a young girl or boy cannot question their parents concerning their marriages despite their parent’s true intention may not be to give their daughters to righteous man but for wealth. Such ignorance across the Muslim world is still strong and carried out.

I have not seen any of these Muslim countries run by men address such issue unless they are pressured to so. Any women would be keen to sort out their ignorance and would have willingness to protect their own sisters and children.

You might disgree, but I certainly believe women in particular would be very good at it.

How is agreeing to parents' choice of our spouse "arranged marriage?" Lets say parents found a spouse and the Muslim guy happen to like her too, would you throw mud at this marriage by calling it "oh-so-disgusting arranged marriage" too? Wooow.

 

[CosmicPathos]

I think the fact that Aisha led even though she later repented because she realized she was on the wrong side is evidence enough. Also the second women Khawlah I mentioned who was married to Ali lead other women in battle against the Romans.

hahahahahaha


hahahahahahah


was Ayesha (ra) the ruler? How could she lead an army when she was not the ruler? Did Muawiyya give her the permission? Was Ayesha (ra) the Ameera al Mumineen?

And after all Ayesha (ra) was the wife of Prophet (pbuh) and had exclusive rights and exclusive responsibilities. Dont tell me that an average woman can come and claim to have the same status as that of the mother of believers and take an whole army out without a valid justification or proof from shariah.

 

[HAWA*~]

hahahahahaha


hahahahahahah


was Ayesha (ra) the ruler? How could she lead an army when she was not the ruler? Did Muawiyya give her the permission? Was Ayesha (ra) the Ameera al Mumineen?

HA ha ha ................... ha?
I didnt know you had to be ruler to lead an army? Was the general Khalid bin Walid a ruler? The ameer al mumineen? Although Aisha only rose up to lead an army because she believed that a wrong had been commited against Uthman and although it was and is not the norm for a women to lead an army of men it did occur.

 

[CosmicPathos]

HA ha ha ................... ha?
I didnt know you had to be ruler to lead an army? Was the general Khalid bin Walid a ruler? The ameer al mumineen? Although Aisha only rose up to lead an army because she believed that a wrong had been commited against Uthman and although it was and is not the norm for a women to lead an army of men it did occur.

Khalid bin Waleed (ra) was appointed by the Ameer ul Mumineen as the Army General. The very position of being Army General is that of leadership, of a ruler, if not that of the country or state. I havent fought in battles but I play enough realistic video games to know at least very general basics of how armies are supposed to work and managed.

Is there proof that Ayesha (ra) was appointed as the Army General by the then Khalifa i.e. Muawiyya? If Ayesha (ra) repented for being on the "wrong side," why did not Muawiyya did so?

Here is a quote by Imam Ghazali. Imam Ghazali was a rationalist, a philosopher of the highest rank and later repented for mixing philosophy with Islam. How could such an educated man adopt such a "conservative and backward" view?

Imaam al-Ghazaali said:

“The position of leader (imaam) could never be given to a woman even if she possessed all the qualities of perfection and self-reliance. How could a woman take the position of leader when she did not have the right to be a judge or a witness under most of the historical governments?”

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

@ Sweet106. I have noticed that you seem to be exerting most of your time here CHALLENGING and REBELLING against Islam rather than being a supportive part of it, like you see most other Muslims here do. You should learn about Islam FIRST before you convert to it. Your concerns are repetitively based on the contemporary insipid viewpoints of Western misandrists/socialists/atheists rather than from Islamic viewpoints. And we would not be making any mistake by saying that those who primarily peddle these mentalities are most often the most severest and rancourest enemies of Islam ANYWAY. Yet you preach their predictable strings of catch-cries such as "women's rights!", "what about the children!", "stop child labour!", "stop arranged marriages!", "stop polygamy!" etc etc. Your political cliches sound more like something being bludgeoned into my ears by the mawkish catch-cries that I hear every time I dare to switch my tv channel over to BBC to listen to their drivelling propaganda machine in action. I'm just curious why you are trying to peddle these platitudinous concerns that I am always hearing from the secularist and misandric enemies of Islam rather than the kinds of priority concerns one would expect to come from an authentic Muslim? Why is that??

I actually came here to learn more about Islam.

I was not being “rebellious”, I was asking questions. You just want me to be submissive, and not actually ask the question “why” at all. Me being submissive, being force feed Islam and not being able to question and ask the wisdom behind it is what made my iman extremely low during my teenage years.

oh how I wish some Muslims stop sticking their heads in the sand. I have never once suggested to stop arranged marriages, polygamy etc. I am like any other Muslims should be against forced marriages. My concerns is very much real, you don’t need any western media as such to tell me you or anyone that. Beating wives with a wire is justified across the Middle East, yet the so called Muslim countries could not care less how their own local people translate Islam like this. Forced marriage is (not arranged marriages) are practiced in most Muslim countries, who need the west to tell us this? It exists and it is widespread. You don’t have to be besotted with western media nor do you have to be a genius to know that. In fact you don’t have to be a genius to know that before the focus was ever on Islam (before 9/11 etc).

Maybe I am of those people that want to know why ummah or in fact Muslim state still allow such practices amongst other things when it completely forbidden in Islam.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

How is agreeing to parents' choice of our spouse "arranged marriage?" Lets say parents found a spouse and the Muslim guy happen to like her too, would you throw mud at this marriage by calling it "oh-so-disgusting arranged marriage" too? Wooow.

It not just about agreeing, why dont you bother to read.

Nothing wrong with parents bringing someone home, everything wrong them focusing their children to marry that person and everything wrong with young people being told to obey their parents to the point of marrying someone that they do not want or when they dont feel at all ready.

 

[CosmicPathos]

I actually came here to learn more about Islam.

I was not being “rebellious”, I was asking questions. You just want me to be submissive, and not actually ask the question “why” at all. Me being submissive, being force feed Islam and not being able to question and ask the wisdom behind it is what made my iman extremely low during my teenage years.

oh how I wish some Muslims stop sticking their heads in the sand. I have never once suggested to stop arranged marriages, polygamy etc. I am like any other Muslims should be against forced marriages. My concerns is very much real, you don’t need any western media as such to tell me you or anyone that. Beating wives with a wire is justified across the Middle East, yet the so called Muslim countries could not care less how their own local people translate Islam like this. Forced marriage is (not arranged marriages) are practiced in most Muslim countries, who need the west to tell us this? It exists and it is widespread. You don’t have to be besotted with western media nor do you have to be a genius to know that. In fact you don’t have to be a genius to know that before the focus was ever on Islam (before 9/11 etc).

Maybe I am of those people that want to know why ummah or in fact Muslim state still allow such practices amongst other things when it completely forbidden in Islam.

I dont think Karl denied that forced marriages happen. In Sindh, a province of Pakistan, villagers sometime marry their daughters with Quran .... NO ONE IS DENYING THIS IGNORANCE.

 

[HAWA*~]

Khalid bin Waleed (ra) was appointed by the Ameer ul Mumineen as the Army General. The very position of being Army General is that of leadership, of a ruler, if not that of the country or state. I havent fought in battles but I play enough realistic video games to know at least very general basics of how armies are supposed to work and managed.

Is there proof that Ayesha (ra) was appointed as the Army General by the then Khalifa i.e. Muawiyya? If Ayesha (ra) repented for being on the "wrong side," why did not Muawiyya did so?

Here is a quote by Imam Ghazali. Imam Ghazali was a rationalist, a philosopher of the highest rank and later repented for mixing philosophy with Islam. How could such an educated man adopt such a "conservative and backward" view?

Imaam al-Ghazaali said:

“The position of leader (imaam) could never be given to a woman even if she possessed all the qualities of perfection and self-reliance. How could a woman take the position of leader when she did not have the right to be a judge or a witness under most of the historical governments?”

Leadership of Caliphate and leadership of an army are 2 different things neither are all leaderships the same so dont come up with specific quotes in reference to specific situations for something general. Aisha led an army. If you have any proof that proves Aisha repented because she led an army and went in a postion of leadership instead of repenting because she took up arms against Ali than bring it forth. Aisha led an army when Uthman was assasinated and there was no acting ruler. I am not arguing that women should lead men in battle because I dont believe that particularly when they can lead other women in battle but the fact remains that Aisha did lead some men into battle. It was not the norm but like I have stated before it did occur.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I dont think Karl denied that forced marriages happen. In Sindh, a province of Pakistan, villagers sometime marry their daughters with Quran .... NO ONE IS DENYING THIS IGNORANCE.

Your concerns are repetitively based on the contemporary insipid viewpoints of Western misandrists/socialists/atheists rather than from Islamic viewpoints.


Your political cliches sound more like something being bludgeoned into my ears by the mawkish catch-cries that I hear every time I dare to switch my tv channel over to BBC to listen to their drivelling propaganda machine in action.

According to him it all to do with the western media, Western misandrists/socialists/atheists.........blah

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I understand your concern however you're presenting a separate issue here. You cannot use what you see from Muslim countries and parallel that with the sharee3ah. Rather see what the sharee3ah says and then decide. As for juries, then allaahu'3lam I don't know of any such thing in the sharee3ah, rather you have a qadih who is presented a case and makes a verdict based upon evidences presented to him and the verdict is based upon knowledge of fiqh/sharee3ah.

But these issues presented doesn't change the fact that a woman leader is not good for the ummah. The Messenger told us this and Allah told us that men are the protectors and maintainers of women. The wali'ul 'Amr is exactly that, a wali to the people. There are many issues that were presented before from other posters that show why a woman is not capable of leading a nation.

Allah azza'wajal has blessed women with such a sacred role that they are the ones who nurture leaders. I feel sometimes sisters downgrade the position that Islam has blessed women with and this shouldn't be the case. We shouldn't get distracted or fooled by the images the kuffar depict to us as to what a "real" woman should be. Their success is not our success.

A woman who prays 5x a day, fasts, pays the zakat, goes to hajj, and obeys her husband will enter any of the gates of jannah. Just look at how great of a reward that is? A woman's jihad is hajj, just look at that. Look how Allah honored the woman and made her jannah easy for her to attain in certain respects.

Also regarding the Muslim countries and "juries", these lands do not rule by the hukm of Allah so its pointless in using them as an example. Rather lets look at how the sa7abah radiallaahu anhum ajma3een dealt with the issues you presented and use that as as a guide.

May Allah cause us to love the sharee3ah ameen

I was refering to Lilly btw. So if there isnt any such thing under sharee3ah, what Lilly talking about then when she said this: B]women can be part of juries and make decisions concerning their affairs, who said that they can't.. this is different from running a country![/B]

Anyway thanks, any good books you can refer me to, or articles or websites?

 

[جوري]

yea it cant mean "mental deficiency." probably more to do with judgment in regards to religious matters? I really dont know. Wallahu AAlim. I dont think hormonal changes really effect women's thinking at all! I mean female scientists, does their productivity decrease when they go through menses? I dont think so.

hormonal changes can affect you in multitudes of ways and that applies to both men and women, women more though for more obvious reasons..

 

[CosmicPathos]

hormonal changes can affect you in multitudes of ways and that applies to both men and women, women more though for more obvious reasons..

you caught me, didnt you?

OK I meant, regular hormonal changes related to menstrual cycle. Of course decreasing amount of TRH or TH will significantly damage bodily systems and mental faculties. I apologize for not specifying hormonal changes related to menstrual cycle. Estrogen, progesterone, GnRH, Inhibin, LH, and FSH. Oxytocin to some extent.
w salam

 

[جوري]

you can function normally of course but it has psychological effects on you and that varies from person to person.. some people have no sx at all psychological or otherwise and in extreme cases you have people with PMDD
http://pmdd.factsforhealth.org/what/

it doesn't make one less intelligent but it can be incapacitating for some .. are you less intelligent when you have a headache or are very tired and sleepy? of course not but it may cloud your judgment...

I think somebody here made a very valid point before I don't recall who and to tired myself to look, but Islam isn't built on the exception.. even in 'western democracy' laws aren't based on the exception...


and Allah swt knows best

 

[syed_z]

Asalaam O Alaikum...just to let you people know i am new here.. so Salaam to Every one

Great discussion...


i just want to say few things...

i think that our sister..sweet106 ... is right.. and she does have the right to ask queries and put her concerns forward and we should help her in answering , which ever way is best... its natural with all Muslims that we do get angry sometimes, because we think that other Person is "Challenging" Allah (swt) ... but its not true.. we should all have patience (not Pointing towards any one!)


about Marriages... No one can force and make Women marry under Compulsion, rather that Marriage is Invalid, which is done under compulsion...

Like there is a Clear Tradition that mentions The Messenger of Allah (Saw) gave the choice to a woman, to reject marriage proposal if her parents were forcing...


Ibn Abbass (r.a) reported that a girl came to Messenger of Allah (Saw) and reported that her father had forced to marry without her consent. The Messenger of Allah (saw) gave her the choice (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it) (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469) In another version the girl said "actually i accept this marriage but i wanted the women to know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)." (Ibn Majah No. 1873)





so No one can force a Woman to marry... regarding many decisions made in the House, the Quran clearly speaks, that a Man and his Wife, both make decisions for the family on Mutual Agreement and by taking counsel like for example...


"... if they (husband, wife) desire to wean the child by Mutual consent and (after) consultation, there is no blame on them..... " (2:233)

So Man's leadership in the House does NOT mean his dictatorship... there are many issues of the House in which the Wife may be able to give a sound judgment, rather than the father. Like a mother is definitely closer, to the children than the father, and vice versa. She can sense about the child sometimes, which the father might not be able to , as the mother spends more time with them, as father is busy working. So Man does not make ALL decisions in the House!


Similarly, there are many things in which women might make better decisions than men, and one of the Cases did take place during the time of Cliphate of Hazrat Umar (r.a) and it was an argument between a Woman and him (r.a)....after the Argument in the Masjid, Umar (r.a) said "A Woman is right and Umar is wrong."


Not only that byt also during the time of Prophet Muhammad (Saw) many incident took place, in which women came and argued their case and did participate in discussions when neccessary. Like for example...

(58:01) "God has indeed heard the words of her who pleads with you concerning her husband, and complains unto God.."

A woman by the name of Khawlah bint Thalabah came to Prophet (saw) and complained that her husband had given her a divorce according to the Pagan Jahilliya tradition of Zihar... which means when Man says to his wife "you are unlawful to me as my mother" and then women could not marry any more, and they were divorced instantly with those words said to them by their husband.

This Ignorance was abolished as soon as the above Verse was revealed. Such similar forms of ignorance prevail in Our societies, like Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, etc. Islam is against such practices... so what im basically trying to say is, that Women CAN argue for their rights if not being given to them, and their decisions/opinions are NOT to be overlooked just because they are Women.


Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar (r.a)The Prophet (saw) said "Consult women about (the marriage of) their daughters." (Abu Daud Book 11, Number 2090)


So above mentioned as well as many other Traditions recorded.... Women did and should play, a role in decision making, wherever Neccessary.


Salaam