Debate on banning Niqaab/Burka in Britain

[Hugo]

What do you want me to feel? I have plenty of non Muslim female relatives that don’t cover their head and I don’t have any ill feelings towards them. So why on earth would I have any ill feelings toward a fellow Muslim who chooses not to cover her head? End of the day it is between her and Allah (swt) and I still consider her as my sister. Noble peace prize is never really given to a Muslim that emphasises how positive her or his life is and how positive the Muslim communities are. The again I can’t take “noble peace prize” serious anyways considering they gave an award to Obama (who did really do anything at the time).

Many Muslim's have won the Nobel prize and the Nobel Prize in Peace 2003 was awarded to Shirin Ebadi "for her efforts for democracy and human rights. She has focused especially on the struggle for the rights of women and children." It is notable then when she arrived back in Tehran after getting the prize she cried out from the aircraft steps "God is Great"

That sounds laudable to me and totally focused on her community where she stood up for its weakest members, suffered abuse and imprisonment and so I would have thought any Muslim who hears that story would feel proud of her persistence, integrity and achievements - but you just see it as a sham. I find that almost impossible to understand.

When Western Media speaks about a Muslim who has done something bad, its anti Isalm and when it celebrates a Muslim who does good or succeeds its just the same

 

[Salahudeen]

I see from this you are in favour of the burka and I guess you would support women them in that but are you open handed here, will you equally support those who see it as a useless symbol or even as a symbol of oppression? Is it reasonable that God, the God who created the timeless vastness of eternity, the laws of physics, the beauty of the earth would want women to walk around in a kind of tent? I just cannot see God thinking this way?

What is you view of women who don't wear the burka?

Hmm I often see Christian Nuns walking around in my area with these tents on also. Well you can not see God thinking this way, but the man next to you can see God thinking this way. So what is the point in this? Just because you think something of God, doesn't mean it is fact.

 

[جوري]

When Western Media speaks about a Muslim who has done something bad, its anti Isalm and when it celebrates a Muslim who does good or succeeds its just the same

winning a Nobel prize isn't something to be celebrated by any means...it is a laughable award started by a guilty man and used by wicked people who often reward bad behavior. You should ask them why so few chinese have won Nobel prize .. perhaps in your book Islam is holding them down as well from making the esteemed change that is rewarded by the west!

 

[جوري]

Hmm I often see Christian Nuns walking around in my area with these tents on also. Well you can not see God thinking this way, but the man next to you can see God thinking this way. So what is the point in this? Just because you think something of God, doesn't mean it is fact.

oh did you mean them:

according to Hugo it is only when you shed your clothes that god loves you because you are coming undone the way the christian god intended!

 

[Salahudeen]

oh did you mean them:

according to Hugo it is only when you shed your clothes that god loves you because you are coming undone the way the christian god intended!

This is how Muslim women dress also. It's virtually the same apart from the colour scheme. Why do these Christian nuns dress this way if God doesn't like it, I'm confused. And why is the Virgin Mary all ways depicted with a head covering and modest clothing.

Is there anything wrong in Muslim women/christian women wanting to emulate her example? If they never had the white bit on their cloaks I'd assume the above were Muslim ladies. Also since the mother of Jesus is highly praised in Islam as one of the few women who perfected her faith I suspect most Muslim women would want to emulate her modest dress.

 

[Insaanah]

Not sure why it's such a strange issue?

To add to Br squiggle's post:

"But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man."

1 Corinthians 11:5-7

Thankfully the Qur'an doesn't suggest that women should shave their hair off, nor that woman is the glory of man.

Peace.

 

[Insaanah]

What though is moot here is your line "..she herself wants to please Allaah.." and that sounds like a bit of pressure is being applied that becomes irresistible, unanswerable so not to wear a burka by implication will not please Allah - though I don't know if you meant it that way?

For Muslims, it is an honour and a pleasure to please Allah. It brings us joy, as well as pleasing Him. Pleasing God may be burdening or a chore in other faiths, but certainly not in Islam.

Peace.

 

[Hugo]

Hmm I often see Christian Nuns walking around in my area with these tents on also. Well you can not see God thinking this way, but the man next to you can see God thinking this way. So what is the point in this? Just because you think something of God, doesn't mean it is fact.

I see your point but I suppose what I am asking is in each case why wear such dress - one supposes they don't do it for fun? I know why Nuns do it and it is an act of separation from the world, from family life and submission to God and they do not see it as having merit or demonstrating piety to do that would be destroy the idea of submission.

 

[جوري]

what is piety if not submitting ones will to God and complying with his written word? or do you have a different definition?

 

[Hugo]

For Muslims, it is an honour and a pleasure to please Allah. It brings us joy, as well as pleasing Him. Pleasing God may be burdening or a chore in other faiths, but certainly not in Islam.

I think I see your point but the Bible makes plain we are to love God with all our hearts, and sound and mind and your neighbour as yourself. The idea of pleasing God is expressed quite clearly in the Bible and one such example is Isaiah 66:2 "Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word." So its not primarily about outward things and they can never be a substitute though they may help. So joy is found in what God has done for us not in what we can do for him and anything we do is by his power not our own.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Many Muslim's have won the Nobel prize and the Nobel Prize in Peace 2003 was awarded to Shirin Ebadi "for her efforts for democracy and human rights. She has focused especially on the struggle for the rights of women and children." It is notable then when she arrived back in Tehran after getting the prize she cried out from the aircraft steps "God is Great"

That sounds laudable to me and totally focused on her community where she stood up for its weakest members, suffered abuse and imprisonment and so I would have thought any Muslim who hears that story would feel proud of her persistence, integrity and achievements - but you just see it as a sham. I find that almost impossible to understand.

When Western Media speaks about a Muslim who has done something bad, its anti Isalm and when it celebrates a Muslim who does good or succeeds its just the same

You clearly did not understand my point at all.


I like anyone else praise those that do stand up for minorities that suffering whether it is a Muslims or not. I said the noble peace prize is hardly EVER given to Muslims that write or talk the positive element of their communities.



The book Husseini “honour killings” chapter 10 clearly illustrates my point!

The opportunist mentioned in chapter 10 are given far more attention in the west then someone like the author herself! Why is that? Is it because the sick opportunist only talks and emphasises about the very bad aspect of Jordan society only? She even made the stuff up!



Almost all those Muslims that are awarded the “noble peace prize” emphasise the negative aspect of the Muslim world. Never have I seen noble peace prize given to muslims that emphasise the positive element or even both sometimes.



Btw: no where in my post did I mentioned or suggested that I was ashamed of anyone! :heated:

 

[marwen]

Fine then explain it to us, show us were in the Qu'ran or anywhere it says this is a worthy thing to do?

Evidences From Qur'an :

Surah Al-Ahzaab, Verse #59
‘O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks ("Jalabib") veils all over their bodies (screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way Tafseer Al-Qurtabi) that is most convenient that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful."

Surah An-Nur, Verses #30 and #31
‘And Say to the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, head cover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)




Evidences From the Hadith :

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 368
Narrated 'Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) used to offer the Fajr prayer and some believing women covered with their veiling sheets used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes unrecognized . Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin in tafseer of this hadith explains "This hadith makes it clear that the Islamic dress is concealing of the entire body as explained in this hadith. Only with the complete cover including the face and hands can a woman not be recognized. This was the understanding and practice of the Sahaba and they were the best of group, the noblest in the sight of Allah (swt) with the most complete Imaan and noblest of characters. so if the practice of the women of the sahaba was to wear the complete veil then how can we deviate from their path? (Ibn Uthaimin in the book "Hijaab" page # 12 and 13)

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith # 148
Narrated 'Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha): The wives of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

Tirmidhi with a SAHIH chain reports...
"Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said “All of a woman is ‘awrah.” (Shaikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid quotes this hadith narrated by Tirmidhi with a sahih isnaad and says this is a direct hadith from Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam ) and has made it clear that a woman must cover everything including the face and hands!)

Abu Dawood Book 14, Hadith # 2482
Narrated Thabit ibn Qays (Radhiallaahu Ánhu): A woman called Umm Khallad came to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) while she was veiled. She was searching for her son who had been killed (in the battle) Some of the Companions of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said to her: You have come here asking for your son while veiling your face? She said: If I am afflicted with the loss of my son, I shall not suffer the loss of my modesty. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said: You will get the reward of two martyrs for your son. She asked: Why is that so, oh Prophet of Allah? He replied: Because the people of the Book have killed him.

Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4090
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.

Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4091
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalanee, who is known as Ameer Al-Mu'mineen in the field of Hadith, said that the phrase, "covered themselves", in the above Hadith means that they "covered their faces". [Fath Al-Bari].

Imaam Malik's MUWATTA Book 20 Hadith # 20.5.16
Yahya related to me from Malik from Hisham ibn Urwa that Fatima bint al-Mundhir (Radhiallaahu Ánha) said, "We used to veil our faces when we were in Ihram in the company of Asma bint Abi Bakr As-Siddiq (Radhiallaahu Ánha). "This again proves that not only the wives of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) wore the Niqaab and that even though in Ihram women are not supposed to wear Niqaab but if men are there they still have to cover the face.

Abu Dawood Book 10, Hadith # 1829
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: (Radhiallaahu Ánha) who said, "The riders would pass us while we were with the Messenger of Allah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam). When they got close to us, we would draw our outer cloak from our heads over our faces. When they passed by, we would uncover our faces.
Recorded by Ahmad, Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah, Narrated 'Aisha. [In his work Jilbab al-Marah al-Muslimah, al-Albani states (p. 108) that it is hasan due to corroborating evidence. Also, in a narration from Asma {who was not the wife of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)}, Asma also covered her face at all times in front of men.] Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin in his tafseer of this hadith explains "This hadith indicates the compulsion of the concealing of the faces as an order of Shariah, because during the Ihram it is "wajib" (compulsory) NOT to wear the Niqaab. So if it was only mustahab (recommended) to cover the face then Aisha and Asma (Radhiallaahu Ánha) would have taken the wajib over the mustahab. It is well known by the Ullima that a wajib can only be left because of something that is also wajib or fardh. So Aisha and Asma (Radhiallaahu Ánha) covering the face even in Ihram in the presence of strange (ghairMahraam) men shows that they understood this to be an act that was wajib or fardh or they would not have covered the face in Ihraam.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Hadith # 715
Narrated 'Ikrima (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) narrates "Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil." It is a very long hadith but the point is the women of Sahaba wore the full veil.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 347
Narrated Um 'Atiya (Radhiallaahu Ánha) We were ordered (by Rasulullah '(Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) to bring out our menstruating women and veiled women in the religious gatherings and invocation of Muslims on the two 'Eid festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from their Musalla. A woman asked, "O Allah's Apostle ' What about one who does not have a veil (the veil is the complete cover with only one eye or two eyes showing)?" He said, "Let her share the veil of her companion." Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin in tafseer of this hadith explained "This hadith proves that the general norm amongst the women of the Sahaba (Radhiallaahu Ánhuma) was that no woman would go out of her home without a cloak, fully concealed and if she did not posses a veil, then it was not possible for her to go out. it was for this reason that when Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) ordered them to go to the Place for Eid Salah, they mentioned this hindrance. As a result Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said that someone should lend her a veil, but did not say they could go out without it. If Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) did not allow women to go to a place like the Eid Salah, which has been ordered by Shariah for women and men alike, then how can people let women to out to market places and shopping centers without where there is open intermingling of the sexes, without a veil. (by Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin in the book "Hijaab" page # 11)

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith # 572
In the end of this very long hadith it quotes Anas (Radhiallaahu Ánho) rates from Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) "and if one of the women of Paradise looked at the earth, she would fill the whole space between them (the earth and the heaven) with light, and would fill whatever is in between them, with perfume, and the veil of her face is better than the whole world and whatever is in it." This show that even the women of Junnah have veils and the word veil is what covers the face (niqaab).

Abu Dawood Book 33, Hadith # 4154, Agreed upon by Nasai
Aisha(Radhiallaahu Ánha) narrates that on one occasion a female Muslim wanted to give a letter to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam), the letter was delivered to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) from behind a curtain.
Note: Quoted in the famous book Mishkaat. Here the Mufasereen of hadith have explained that the hadith where women came up to Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) face to face were before the ayah "And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts." (Surah Al*Ahzâb ayah # 53) And this hadith proves this order is for the whole Ummah not just for the wives of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)!

Abu Dawood Book 2, Hadith # 0641
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said "Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who has reached puberty unless she wears a veil."

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Hadith # 293
Narrated 'Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) Utba bin Abi Waqqas said to his brother Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas, "The son of the slave girl of Zam'a is from me, so take him into your custody." So in the year of Conquest of Mecca, Sa'd took him and said. (This is) my brother's son whom my brother has asked me to take into my custody." 'Abd bin Zam'a got up before him and said, (He is) my brother and the son of the slave girl of my father, and was born on my father's bed." So they both submitted their case before Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam). Sa'd said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother and he entrusted him to me." 'Abd bin Zam'a said, "This boy is my brother and the son of the slave girl of my father, and was born on the bed of my father." Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abd bin Zam'a!" Then Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) further said, "The child is for the owner of the bed, and the stone is for the adulterer," Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) then said to Sauda bint Zam'a, "Veil (screen) yourself before him," when he saw the child's resemblance to 'Utba. The boy did not see her again till he met Allah. note: This hadith proves Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) did infact order the veil to be observed.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 65, Hadith # 375
Narrated Anas (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) I know (about) the Hijab (the order of veiling of women) more than anybody else. Ubai bin Ka'b used to ask me about it. Allah's Apostle became the bridegroom of Zainab bint Jahsh whom he married at Medina. After the sun had risen high in the sky, the Prophet invited the people to a meal. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) remained sitting and some people remained sitting with him after the other guests had left. Then Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) got up and went away, and I too, followed him till he reached the door of 'Aisha's room. Then he thought that the people must have left the place by then, so he returned and I also returned with him. Behold, the people were still sitting at their places. So he went back again for the second time, and I went along with him too. When we reached the door of 'Aisha's room, he returned and I also returned with him to see that the people had left. Thereupon Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) hung a curtain between me and him and the Verse regarding the order for (veiling of women) Hijab was revealed.

Abu Dawood Book 32, hadith # 4100
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): I was with Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) while Maymunah was with him. Then Ibn Umm Maktum came. This happened when we were ordered to observe veil. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said: Observe veil from him. We asked: oh Rasulullah! is he not blind? He can neither see us nor recognize us. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said: Are both of you blind? Do you not see him?

 

[Salahudeen]

I see your point but I suppose what I am asking is in each case why wear such dress - one supposes they don't do it for fun? I know why Nuns do it and it is an act of separation from the world, from family life and submission to God and they do not see it as having merit or demonstrating piety to do that would be destroy the idea of submission.

Well Hugo you have answered your own question, you stated nuns do it as an act of submission to God and this is exactly the same reason as to why Muslim women do it. And we believe acts that involve submitting yourself to god carry merit.

So Nun's do not see doing an act of submissiveness to God as something that carries merit?

then this is indeed where the difference is, for a Muslim woman, doing an act of submissiveness to God is something that carries Merritt. Just like when a Muslim prays to God 5 time a day out of submissiveness, it is an act of merit.

What is better than submitting yourself to God? Is not such a thing worthy of merit?

Does not the very fact that Nuns do it out of submissiveness to God demonstrate their piety?

 

[Insaanah]

I think I see your point but the Bible makes plain we are to love God with all our hearts, and sound and mind and your neighbour as yourself. The idea of pleasing God is expressed quite clearly in the Bible and one such example is Isaiah 66:2 "Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word." So its not primarily about outward things and they can never be a substitute though they may help. So joy is found in what God has done for us not in what we can do for him and anything we do is by his power not our own.

In Islam, it is not just about hearts, sound and mind, but we must supplement that with action.

The Qur'an says in many places, "Indeed those who believe and do good deeds..."

It is not the case that we believe and then do what we please. We believe and then practically put that belief into action, by performing good deeds. If your belief is not going to spur you to do that, then there is no point.

It is through the correct belief, good deeds, and Allah's Mercy, that we will get to Paradise if we are so destined for it.

He doesn't "need" our good deeds, Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He, is free of all needs and wants, we are doing them for ourselves.

If you invest money, with the hope and intention of getting some return, are you doing it because the bank/building society "needs" your money? Or are you investing for yourself? Our good deeds are our investment for the hereafter, for which, God willing, we shall receive our just reward.

On the other hand, simply believing that investment will bring you returns, but then not investing, will not bring you any return. What's in your mind is not enough. It must be supplemented by action in order to bring about results.

Peace.

 

[Zafran]

Why will they just sit at home and I note you say FORCED to sit at home, who forces them to do that?


Is this a principle you are expounding here, that anyone can do anything and if it is banned then we are restricting freedom?

what do the people say that want to ban the burkha - you do know the main reason they give? If you do then you will understand what I'm saying.

 

[Hugo]

You clearly did not understand my point at all. I like anyone else praise those that do stand up for minorities that suffering whether it is a Muslims or not. I said the noble peace prize is hardly EVER given to Muslims that write or talk the positive element of their communities. The book Husseini “honour killings” chapter 10 clearly illustrates my point!
The opportunist mentioned in chapter 10 are given far more attention in the west then someone like the author herself! Why is that? Is it because the sick opportunist only talks and emphasises about the very bad aspect of Jordan society only? She even made the stuff up!

Almost all those Muslims that are awarded the “noble peace prize” emphasise the negative aspect of the Muslim world. Never have I seen noble peace prize given to muslims that emphasise the positive element or even both sometimes.

I cannot quite see what you mean, the prize should go to someone who upholds Sharia in every respect as they offer a pure Islam? I assume you are speaking of Rana Hosseini as the author but I cannot understand who you are speaking of as "she made the stuff up" - is this Hosseini or the person in chapter 10? You may be right about what these authors say but are they telling the truth is moot; or are they inventing it? There may be other books that say how wonderful it is to live in Saudi Arabia or Iran but I don't know any - perhaps you can suggest a few titles? Another reason is that Sherin Ebardi's book would NEVER be printed and circulated freely in Iran would it - because one cannot criticize the regime, is that a good or bad thing?

You might be interested to know that Among Muslims, the name that I know best is Abdus-Salam. He was a Pakistani muslim, who won the Nobel prize in Physics in 1979. However, how sad that internal squabbles within Islam (he was not the right kind of Muslim) in Pakistan prevented him from ever really getting the recognition he deserved in the Muslim world. Then there is Ahmed Zewail, a Nobel laureate in chemistry (1997), Naguib Mahfouz, a Nobel laureate in literature from Egypt (1988), Orhan Pamuk, a Turkish novelist who has often been criticized in his home country for highlighting the genocide of the Armenians in the 1st world war period (under the Ottoman empire), Shirin Ebadi, an Iranian human rights activist, won the Nobel Peace prize in 2003, the first Muslim woman to win, Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh and his Grameen Bank (a brilliant idea). Then then there are Muslims waiting in line like Abdus Sattar Edhi, the Mother Teresa of Pakistan.

I cannot see that any of these were unworthy can you? Who would you suggest?

 

[Hugo]

what do the people say that want to ban the burkha - you do know the main reason they give? If you do then you will understand what I'm saying.

Why don't you tell us who 'they' are and what their reason is and then we can asses it here.

 

[Zafran]

I think this thread is going way off topic - we shoudl bring it back to "banning the burkha/niqab in the UK and not some international tangent which frankly this thread has nothing to do with.

 

[Zafran]

Why don't you tell us who 'they' are and what their reason is and then we can asses it here.

The people that want to ban the burkha in the UK - you do know there reasons - its not rocket science.

 

[Hugo]

Hugo does take a clever dig at people and Islam itself sometimes. He jumps to conclusions and fails to address points. Instead he select what he want to address.
I dont mind him being here. He does not bother me much. I dont care if he gets banned or stays. He has made a useful thread in educational issue.

Thanks for the warm endorsement but please show me where I have jumped to conclusions and there is nowhere you can find where I have avoided addressing what is asked.