Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

[جوري]

Hugo's participation in a conversation in which those things were discussed does NOT make him a hypocrite. Hypocrisy is when he says he believes one thing but behaves in a different way. I don't see that in any of Hugo's posts..

a hypocrite is a person who holds beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives, and that in fact makes Hugo a synonym.
please allow me to list the many ways.
1- he pretends he is a read scholar, offers ISBN, when you ask him to elucidate a point in a particular book one that you yourself may have read, he is mum at best, poor fellow never gets past the title and bombastic words to pad a who lot of farting.
2- He pretends to approach beliefs in a concise similar scholarly fashion, yet when you ask him of massive biblical errors as pointed out by staunch biblical (non-Muslim scholars) like Bruce Metzger again, the circuitous route rather than a direct response, lest it expose him to every member in reality he is hoping everyone is as dimwitted as he is as to lap his crap right up, and who can blame him, apparently this is the way for him to lull himself that his beliefs are sensical or even superior. Note of course when Bruce says anything anti-Islamic he laps it right up without looking for the Muslim response. Which makes him the biggest hypocrite of all, for where is the scholarly research in something that can't be backed up?
3- He pretends to read responses written here on the forum in response to his queries but even on the same thread he'll recoup and ask the same questions again, adding his own sick twisted conclusions with the desire that everyone will reach the same.
4- He pretends to know what he is talking about, have a look at the 'Medical student review' thread, yet when asked two very direct questions to the subject he offered to elucidate, again, he had nothing of substance to offer, no answers, just more bulky useless posts that have nothing to do with the subject, nor do they actually break things down for people so we can overlook his shortcomings.

So indeed, he pretends to be a scholar, he pretends to be a friend, he pretends he's here to seek knowledge and exchange it, but in reality he is just another worthless missionary living off Muslim money and what he conceals is even worse than what he displays although, I can't imagine him being any more despicable!

all the best

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

. . . . . . . . .

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

My apologies Muslimah 4 life. You didn't break the agreement.

No problem. . . . . . . . .

 

[Grace Seeker]

a hypocrite is a person who holds beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives,

I don't see Hugo concealing his motives and certainly not his feelings. Now me? While I'm pretty upfront about my motives, I definite work at concealing my feelings and to temper them before I post. Perhaps in your view that makes me a hypocrite as well.

As for the majority of the things you cite, I'll not debate whether they are true or not, only that it seems they are more in line with the definition not of a hypocrite but what some might call a fraud (you said he "pretends"). And with reference to point #3:

3- He pretends to read responses written here on the forum in response to his queries but even on the same thread he'll recoup and ask the same questions again, adding his own sick twisted conclusions with the desire that everyone will reach the same.

I think that's all of us. I know that I've asked questions a second and third time as I go from thread to thread. Sometimes because I've forgotten the answer, sometimes because others continue to make what I see as the same erroneous assertions. In either case, I suspect that you could find that every single regular poster has done this on more than one occassion. Perhaps we're all hypocrites.

all the best

Thanks for your continued well wishes and may you experience Allah's peace today.

 

[جوري]

I don't see Hugo concealing his motives and certainly not his feelings. Now me? While I'm pretty upfront about my motives, I definite work at concealing my feelings and to temper them before I post. Perhaps in your view that makes me a hypocrite as well.

I am sure you don't.. like attracts like.. I think you are birds of a feather, but I tolerate you better seeing as you lay off the redundancy somewhat!

As for the majority of the things you cite, I'll not debate whether they are true or not, only that it seems they are more in line with the definition not of a hypocrite but what some might call a fraud (you said he "pretends"). And with reference to point #3:
I think that's all of us. I know that I've asked questions a second and third time as I go from thread to thread. Sometimes because I've forgotten the answer, sometimes because others continue to make what I see as the same erroneous assertions. In either case, I suspect that you could find that every single regular poster has done this on more than one occassion. Perhaps we're all hypocrites.

perhaps with you it is mere old age? but with him, it is definitely motivated by his sickness!

Thanks for your continued well wishes and may you experience Allah's peace today.

All the best

 

[YusufNoor]

Do not be silly. How many criteria have to be true for it to hold and one presumes if there are criteria its like a chain, if one fails then the whole fails.? It is perfectly transparent that you have avoided most of what I said about the Qu'ran because it is troubling to you and can cannot be answered. I am perfectly happy to take the Bible as it is and all you are doing is repeating the standard Islamic views. It is you that have the problem for the Qu'ran tells us to check it with earlier scriptures but when you do that there are major difference so you come up with this shoddy argument that the Bible is corrupted and what you believe in is the originals - so the Qu'ran tells us to do something according to you that cannot be done. We know what language Jesus spoke and we also know that Galilee had been a major centre for Greek culture so there is NOTHING unreasonable in the Bible being produced in Greek as it was almost 1,000 years before Islam saw the light of day.

WTF??? the Quran was completed in the year 632 AD, how could there be a Bible produced in Greek in the 300's BC???? Alexander didn 't even conquer the area until the late 300's, so there were NO MAJOR centers of Greek until AFTER he did so!

Of course certain books were discarded in much the same way that in the Uthaman recension we know that there was a rule that for a verse to included it had to be witnessed by two people and if that means anything at all it means that there were many verses circulating that where not true so why was that necessary if all these people knew it off by heart. They may have written it down but there is zero evidence for that now is there

If I am a hypocrite then you are simply ignorant - I have said many times there were no witnesses to the actual recitation no one else saw or heard anything and for most of the revelation there were no witness at all. Now, why don't you apply the standards you expect from the Bible to your own Qu'ran - you cannot can you, you are simple unable to be critical about it, its history and what it says. Telling me to leave the Board is just a symptom of your uncritical view - you cannot question it and so no one must question it and all that does is ultimately lead to oppression as we know.

pearls before swine i say...

anyway, a quick chat about comparing the Bible in Greek and the Qur'an in Arabic:

the Qur'an was completed in the early 7th Century and shorty thereafter put in book form, the form in which it exists today. let's go with Uthmann's and say mid 7th Century.

as for the Bible in the Greek language:

THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY COMPLETE VERSION OF THE BIBLE IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE, IN THE FORM IT IS ACCEPTED BY PROTESTANTS TODAY [AND ONLY THAT FORM], THAT PREDATES THE COMPLETED WRITTEN QUR'AN!

LIKEWISE:

THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY COMPLETE VERSION OF THE BIBLE IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE, IN THE FORM IT IS ACCEPTED BY CATHOLICS TODAY [AND ONLY THAT FORM], THAT PREDATES THE COMPLETED WRITTEN QUR'AN!

and that's the TRUTH!

PERIOD

 

[جوري]

pearls before swine i say...

Ain't that the truth? maybe he can go makeup a story and circulate it on the web, seeing as they are so apt at producing massive B.S and not having the ability to back it up!

 

[Grace Seeker]

You seem to agree the bible isnt in its orignal form ?

A fair question, but it shows a way of thinking with regard to the Bible that isn't necessarily germane to its integrity. It seems to presuppose that the Bible had an original form. But I'm not sure we can ever say that.

The Bible is not a single book, but a library of books. And it isn't from a single date, but a library compiled over an extended period of time. During that time, some of the writings that we have in it were produced and considered scripture before other writings that we have in it were ever even written. But just because there were written and recognized scriptures doesn't mean that we had a Bible.

The Bible that we know today -- be it the library of 78 books recognized as canonical by the Catholic Church, or the library of 88 books recognized as canonical by most protestant churches -- would have various parts of it written, reviewed, and rewritten before anyone thought to consider as scripture some of what we include in the Bible today.

For an illustration, just check out Paul's letter to the Ephesians and his letter to the Colossians -- they are basically the same letter written to neighboring groups of churches. In other words, Paul was even editting himself. And the OT books of Kings and Chronicles are basically two different (but not identical) tellings of the same history. To have such "rewrites" is completely antithetical to the Muslim understanding of scripture as a direct, perfect, dictated word from God. And surely my speaking of them this way would therefore to a Muslim seem like confession of "corruption". But I don't see it that way.

What I see is that these books were written and put in use and found an acceptance as being in some sense authoritative by the community. It is in their usage, not their writing, that they became known as scripture. And that usage implies also copying, and with the copying the mistakes of copyists. By the time they were accepted as scripture they had already gone through the process of having introduced to them all the things that today Muslims point to as "corruptions" and still the church (and the Jewish community as well with regard to the Tanakh) saw fit to recognize them as being authoritative and capable of providing the standard for faith and practice (Christian behavior) in the church. This means that these "corruptions" were known and yet not deemed sufficient to negate the value of making the writings canonical (i.e., "the rule [or standard] for faith and practice"). And still we didn't have a Bible. It was only have accepting them individually as such did the church seek to identify them as a compiled unit which today we call the Bible.

So, no, the Bible isn't in its original form. Of course there were original autographs from the first time something was put to paper, but other than the first telling of a story or the first copy of a letter, we never ever had an original form for the Bible to speak of in the first place.

Probably more than you asked for, but I hope it help for better understanding.

 

[Grace Seeker]

THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY COMPLETE VERSION OF THE BIBLE IN THE GREEK LANGUAGE, IN THE FORM IT IS ACCEPTED BY CATHOLICS TODAY [AND ONLY THAT FORM], THAT PREDATES THE COMPLETED WRITTEN QUR'AN!

That's true. Now explain why that's so. Such a statement doesn't mean what some people are probably thinking that it means.

 

[Ramadhan]

naidamar, this is very interesting. Do you admit that Jesus was raised? Raised in what way?

Jesus pbuh was taken out of this world by Allah SWT without having to die first. As for the details, we do not know.
As every being shall taste death, he will be sent back to earth towards the end of the world (qiyamat) to kill the antichrist, and he will lead a normal live, the world will be prosperous, he will get married, and he will die. Soon after his death, qiyamat occurs.

 

[Zafran]

If I am a hypocrite then you are simply ignorant - I have said many times there were no witnesses to the actual recitation no one else saw or heard anything and for most of the revelation there were no witness at all. Now, why don't you apply the standards you expect from the Bible to your own Qu'ran - you cannot can you, you are simple unable to be critical about it, its history and what it says. Telling me to leave the Board is just a symptom of your uncritical view - you cannot question it and so no one must question it and all that does is ultimately lead to oppression as we know.

By the way there are eye witnesses of revelation coming from the prophet Muhammad pbuh - ever heard of hadiths. You just fail to accept them for whatever reason and instead like to rely on your "sources" eg, wikipedia - the only problem now is that why do you waste your time here? when countless times your bring us the same things and we reply in the same manner.

You have asked your question and have recieved an answer. There is zero oppression here. Its you crying as usual because people disagree with you.

peace

 

[Ramadhan]

I am perfectly happy to take the Bible as it is

So I see that you have no problem with the fact that bible is contains a story of imagination by some unknown people in the second century about what Jesus might have said and did.

So this is a confirmation then.

 

[Ramadhan]

And any copy of the Qur'an that did not conform to the accepted standard was similarly destroyed. Both religions have had people make determinations of what was and was not orthodox teachings, and both have attempted to root out that which was considered unorthodox.

You surely know that the copies that were destroyed by Uthman ra are those written in dialects other than in what it was transmitted, the content of the other copies were exactly the same. All accounts support this, if you disagree produce your evidence. This is the beauty of preservation of memorisation. You cannot destroy it.
Meanwhile, there were many books rejected by council of nicea whose content were completely faithful to monotheism. This, regardless of the fact that those rejected books (ie. the gospel of nazarenes) were older and more authorative than the books which were included in the bible.

 

[Ramadhan]

Hugo and I do worship The GOD. We don't worship (a mere) human; we worship Jesus is is fully God just as much as he is human. And we don't worship any vague being; we know the Holy Spirit to be as concrete of a reality as God himself.

Jesus pbuh disciples did not worship him, they worship The God. They did not worship holy spirit also.

Thank-you for sharing with us what YOU would do. I hope you are not implying that you are the standard by which all others should pattern their lives. I trust that is just an expression of concern of Hugo's eternal well being.

My advice actually also goes for you (and any other active non-muslims).
In the judgement day, we will be asked and judged justly. So the more you know the truth about Islam, but still reject it, the severe for you the punishment.
And you have been in this board long enough to know that Islam is the truth.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus pbuh disciples did not worship him, they worship The God. They did not worship holy spirit also.

A fallacy taught by Islam.

And you have been in this board long enough to know that Islam is the truth.

Actually I was much more willing to accept that there was some truth in Islam BEFORE I came on this board. What I have learned here has caused me to question Islam more, not less.

 

[Ramadhan]

A fallacy taught by Islam.

In your scripture, jesus always commanded his disciples to worship God the father, never he commanded/asked/requested/hinted to his followers to worship himself or the holy spirit.

Only after he left that some christians made him into god.

Actually I was much more willing to accept that there was some truth in Islam BEFORE I came on this board. What I have learned here has caused me to question Islam more, not less.

Truth indeed tastes bitter to those who reject it and seal their own heart to it.
May Allah SWT guide you to the straight path.

 

[Grace Seeker]

May Allah SWT guide you to the straight path.

I appreciate such prayers. They are in fact my regular prayer as well.

In your scripture, jesus always commanded his disciples to worship God the father, never he commanded/asked/requested/hinted to his followers to worship himself or the holy spirit.

Only after he left that some christians made him into god.

You must skip over passages such is these:

Matthew 8

1When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him [including his disciples].
2And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 3And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

Matthew 9
18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
19And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.

Doing what the leper and the ruler asked without rejecting their acts of worship would qualify at least as a hint.


The of course there actually are times when the disciples themselves worshipped him:

Matthew 14

22And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.
23And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
24But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33Then they [the disciples] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 28

9And as they [the women] went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they [the disciples] worshipped him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Luke 24
50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52And they [the disciples] worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

And sometime Jesus even goes so far as to seemingly solicit worship of himself:

John 9
35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Please, don't complain about Hugo being redundant and ignoring that which he has been taught with regard to Isalm, all of these have been pointed to you before. You either have conveniently forgotten or choose to ignore. In light of that, I'll simply let you hear your own words again:

Truth indeed tastes bitter to those who reject it and seal their own heart to it. May Allah SWT guide you to the straight path.

 

[Ramadhan]

You must skip over passages such is these:

Matthew 8

1When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him [including his disciples].
2And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 3And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Matthew 9
18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
19And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.
Doing what the leper and the ruler asked without rejecting their acts of worship would qualify at least as a hint.


The of course there actually are times when the disciples themselves worshipped him:
Matthew 14

22And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.
23And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
24But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33Then they [the disciples] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 28

9And as they [the women] went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they [the disciples] worshipped him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Luke 24
50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52And they [the disciples] worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

And sometime Jesus even goes so far as to seemingly solicit worship of himself:
John 9
35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Please, don't complain about Hugo being redundant and ignoring that which he has been taught with regard to Isalm, all of these have been pointed to you before. You either have conveniently forgotten or choose to ignore. In light of that, I'll simply let you hear your own words again:

The bible in the greek version (from which the english version translated) did NOT use the word "worship" in the meaning that we understand in english:


With regard to John 9:38 "Lord. I believe, and he worshipped him." and Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him." The word translated as "worshipped" in both verses is the GREEK word "prosekunesan" which is derived from the root word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}.

The literal meaning of this word is : "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, selective translation.

However, the above two verses of John and Matthew are not the only two verses of the Bible were such selective translation techniques are employed in order to impress upon the reader a chosen doctrine. For example, in the "Gospel of Matthew" the English "translation" records that Jesus was "worshipped" by Magi that came from the East (2:11); by a ruler (9:18) , by boat people (14:33), by a Canaanite woman (15:24), by the mother of the Zebedees (20:20); and by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:9) to name but a very few.

Since worshipping any one other than God is a fundamental sin, therefore, the reader understands that Jesus was God since he condoned them "worshipping" him. Since Jesus (pbuh) never once in the whole Bible ever told anyone "worship me!" (as God Himself does in many places), therefore, once again, we are told that Jesus was "hinting" that he wants us to worship him. However, as we can plainly see, what the author was in fact saying in these verses is that these people "fell at Jesus' feet," or that these people "knelt before Jesus."

How then shall we interpret their "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Far from it!.

When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?

A detailed analysis of selective translating by the church, go to [divinity of Jesus]

Finally, in order to seal the proof of this matter and to dispel any lingering doubt that may remain in the reader's mind, the reader is encouraged to obtain a copy of the "New English Bible." In it they will find the translations of the quoted verses to read:

"bowed to the ground" (2:11);

"fell at his feet" (14:33);

"falling prostrate before him" (28:9), and

"fell prostrate before him" (28:17)...etc.

Please also read the translation of these verses in "The Complete Bible, an American Translation" By Edward Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith where they are once again honestly translated as:

"they threw themselves down and did homage to him" (2:11),

"fell down before him"(14:33),

"and they went up to him and clasped his feed and bowed to the ground before him" (28:9), and

"bowed down before him"(28:17), etc.

Once again, we remember that such sublime manipulation of the translation in order to establish with the reader a chosen doctrine was exposed by God in the noble Qur'an. The Qur'an says:

"There is among them a party who distort the Scripture with their tongues that you might think that it is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from God,' but it is not from God; and they speak a lie against God, and [well] they know it!"

- Qur'an, 3:78

 

[Ramadhan]

May Allah SWT guide you to the straight path.
I appreciate such prayers. They are in fact my regular prayer as well.

The fact that you are on IslamicBoard with so many brothers and sisters providing you knowledge about Islam and encouraging you towards the truth is evidence in itself that your prayer has been answered.

Have you ever wondered about this?

For the next step, you have to do the part though.