Free will with an all knowing God.

[Tyrion]

I tried searching for another thread that tackled this, and I couldn't really find anything... So here I go.

Basically, a few weeks ago I got into a discussion with one of my philosopher friends, and we started talking about God. He brought up the issue of free will being impossible with the existence of an all knowing God, and while I was able to hold my own in the discussion, I wasn't able to really articulate an effective response. This was mainly due to the fact that I'm not particularly learned in philosophy, or proper Islamic arguments on the matter. I basically just ended up telling him what I could about the Islamic conception of God and free will, and then just let him know that my knowledge on the matter ended there.

I was hoping to get some responses from Muslims who are knowledgeable on the subject, but also to maybe spark some discussion so that I can further understand both view points. Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Just because God knows the future, it does not mean man does not have free will. Moreover, in Islam, God knows the future, and has written it down in the Preserved Tablet. All the past events that have occurred, the future as it will unfold and manifest itself, and the present, every minuscule detail has been recorded by God. So in essence, we have free will but within the context of what God wrote down for us. Since we do not know what God wrote for us, we have to strive our best to do things, but whatever God has willed and has written down, only that will happen. And some of the things which God wrote down, such as such and such person is destined to Hell, He wrote them down based on His foreknowledge of what the deeds of that person will be as done out of his pure free-will. So its not unjust at all.

May Allah forgive me if I said something wrong about Him.

 

[PouringRain]

I will tell you a practical way that I conceptualize it. Have you ever read those Choose Your Own Adventure books? That is free will, in spite of God knowing all things. God authored the book of your life. You are the character in the book who gets to make the choices. Each choice leads to various outcomes (all which God authored in his book), and he knows all your endings.

If you are not familiar with the books, then this explanation may not make a whole lot of sense. I was one of those anal-children who would read each book and pick every single endings making sure I saw every single choice and outcome.

Anyhow, that is my conceptualization of free will + God knows all things.

 

[marwen]

Free will with an all knowing God ?
I don't know what is the problem here. God is knowing what you'll do in the future, but He doesn't force you to do what you will do : You still have a free will.
Allah gave us a free will, but also because He is a God, he can know the future. And Allah's knowledge of the future is independent from your free will : no contradiction between your freedom to do what you want, and the fact that Allah can know what you will do before you do it.

Let's take an example : this is not exactly the same thing, but just to clarify a little bit the independence between The all knowing God and The Free will :
Let's suppose you have a kid. And from your experience/knowledge you know that your kid love chocolate more than anything else.
And you gave your kid some pocket money and told him to go to the supermarket and buy some food for himself. In the supermarket, in the food section, there is cookies and candies and chocolate. Now before your kid get out the supermarket, you can already know that he will surely come out with at least one chocolate bar in his bag (with or without other things). Did you force him to buy chocolate ? No ! He had a free will. But you knew what he will do before he did it. The tow things (your knowledge and the kid's decision) are independent.

The same way, Allah can know what we will do in the future, even before we are born/created. But we are totally free to decide what to do, and we will freely chose the actions that we want to do (that's why we are responsible of our actions), but the result will be exactly conform to Allah's prior knowledge.

 

[B_M]

I will tell you a practical way that I conceptualize it. Have you ever read those Choose Your Own Adventure books? That is free will, in spite of God knowing all things. God authored the book of your life. You are the character in the book who gets to make the choices. Each choice leads to various outcomes (all which God authored in his book), and he knows all your endings.

That's exactly how I think of it.

How do we know that God doesn't know both the outcomes? If we come to a certain situation that requires a decision, and there's more than one path, whether we take route 1 or route 2, maybe God knows the outcome to both. It's our Free Will to choose which path to take.

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

When questioned about free will, I always explain this way:

There are 2 things that are absolute...the time of our birth and the time of our death. These two things will never change and all paths we take from birth will eventually lead to the same end...death. However, the paths we choose between these two absolutes is our free will. The path is straight at birth and then branches off as we make decisions or choices through life.

Hope this helps.

Wa'alaikum salam,
Hana

 

[Yanal]

Insha'Allaah this can assist you:

Divine Decree​

A Muslim must believe in Divine Decree or destiny — qadar in Arabic. The concept of qadar used in the Qur’an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which Allah (God) created human beings and all things of nature. When Allah created each thing, He determined when it would come into existence and when it would cease to exist. He also determined its qualities and nature. And everything in the universe, the seen and the unseen, is completely subject to the overriding power of Allah. Nothing can happen outside His Will.
As for human beings, they are not completely masters of their fates, nor are they puppets subject to the hazards of destiny. Allah gave humans limited power and great freedom, including the freedom of choice. That autonomy makes each individual accountable for his or her deeds.
We cannot know our future and, to a large extent, we cannot control it. But we can make decisions within the limits of what we can control, based on our understanding of the way the world works. If someone chooses to punch his fist into a brick wall, he cannot claim any injustice when it hurts. He knows that the wall exists and that it is hard. That is the reality — the “laws of nature” — he has to deal with. Yet the ultimate reality is that Allah could make the wall disappear just before one’s fist reaches it.
Just as Allah created nature and its laws, He made moral laws, and we cannot claim any injustice if we get punished for disobeying or ignoring those moral laws.

The concept of qadar, therefore, indicates that we must seek harmony with Allah’s rules of human nature and nature at large, and consciously submit to His will. Destiny as conceived by Islam, therefore, does not take away our freedom of choice and action. It is our willful choice of those actions from our inherent possibilities that are in harmony with Allah’s will that earns us our reward from Allah.
Yet, when Allah set certain rules in His decree as to how things evolve, even these things can be changed through prayers. The Prophet stressed that only sincere prayers can change the way events unfold, and that true worship and sincere submission to Allah can raise the believer above the normal ways of nature. Prayers can and do result in “personal miracles” — events or experiences that we consider almost impossible and certainly highly improbable.
From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle!
We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.
As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path — good or evil — each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination — Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path.

http://islam.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=...pth/islamintro/Belief/Destiny/article01.shtml

 

[Dave...]

It has been my experience that when speaking of "free will", most people have a different idea of what it means. So the number one objective is to collectively define what it means. I always ask, what are you claiming that your will is free from, God's sovereignty? His decree?

As a Christian, I know that the Bible knows of no such concept as "free will" is it is usually defined. The Bible says that we are either slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness. Freedom, as defined by the Bible, is the ability to obey God without the restraint of sin.

It's a deep topic. The problem is everyone is reading their own definition into terms like "free will" and as a result, nobody is understanding what the other is saying.

Try to first ask...what do you mean by "free will"? I will either agree, or disagree, depending on how one defines it. That goes a long way to making any discussion worth having.

Dave

 

[Lynx]

The most common response to the Free Will problem is that just because God knows what will happen does not mean God is making it happen. The best way IMO to think about this is imagine if God didn't exist in our universe; would our actions be any different? Probably not because God's knowledge of our actions seem to be known because we will do those actions. So John is going to buy a sandwich tomorrow and God knows this because that's what John is going to do.

Read Boethius for the strongest defense of free will + omniscience or look up a summary of Boethius' passage about free will in his consolation of philosophy.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The most common response to the Free Will problem is that just because God knows what will happen does not mean God is making it happen.

Unless God also created us with total power over how we'd turn out.

The problem with God and Free Will is not that God knows the future, but that God knows the future AND created us with complete power over how we'd turn out. This means that God built us so we would do what we will do, and then punishes us if we do something different. It is like writing "4" on all six sides of a dice, rolling the dice and then being upset at the dice because they didn't roll "5". It is like screaming at your dog because he peed in your house after locking him up for 10 hours and not letting him go outside.

 

[FS123]

The problem with God and Free Will is not that God knows the future, but that God knows the future AND created us with complete power over how we'd turn out.

Turn out physically or morally? God doesn't make you do what you do, choice is yours.

 

[Lynx]

Unless God also created us with total power over how we'd turn out.

The problem with God and Free Will is not that God knows the future, but that God knows the future AND created us with complete power over how we'd turn out. This means that God built us so we would do what we will do, and then punishes us if we do something different. It is like writing "4" on all six sides of a dice, rolling the dice and then being upset at the dice because they didn't roll "5". It is like screaming at your dog because he peed in your house after locking him up for 10 hours and not letting him go outside.

I don't quite see how human sinning is akin to a dog peeing inside because he can't go outside. Are you saying that since (for example) men want to have sex, that it's God's fault when a man falls for that temptation because that's how God made him?

 

[Pygoscelis]

I don't quite see how human sinning is akin to a dog peeing inside because he can't go outside. Are you saying that since (for example) men want to have sex, that it's God's fault when a man falls for that temptation because that's how God made him?

God should bare some responsibility if he created this particular man with this particular drive and knew it would lead him to do this particular thing, which God doesn't want to happen. The dog could have held out for a couple more hours before peeing on the rug too. But as the owner, you know what is likely to happen if you set up the scenario. You don't know exactly what WILL happen though as you create the circumstance, as God would (making God more responsible).

 

[جوري]

The dog could have held out for a couple more hours before peeing on the rug too

Are you suggesting that it is instinctive as it is to pee or eat to be evil? and where would free will come to play in all of this, I mean what would be the point of life?
It is as if to say, the teacher should take responsibility for the failure and cheating of some of his students, he knew their nature, that they are rowdy, undisciplined and not smart yet made a difficult exam anyway..

Got to love that atheist logic (or lack thereof)

 

[Pygoscelis]

Are you suggesting that it is instinctive as it is to pee or eat to be evil? and where would free will come to play in all of this, I mean what would be the point of life?
It is as if to say, the teacher should take responsibility for the failure and cheating of some of his students, he knew their nature, that they are rowdy, undisciplined and not smart yet made a difficult exam anyway..

The teacher did not create the student with perfect knowledge of the test results they would receive before even admitting them to the course. And the teacher did not have the ability to create the student differently.

Got to love that atheist logic (or lack thereof)

Yes of course, the obligatory snide remark to avoid actual civil discussion.

 

[CosmicPathos]

The teacher did not create the student with perfect knowledge of the test results they would receive before even admitting them to the course. And the teacher did not have the ability to create the student differently.




Yes of course, the obligatory snide remark to avoid actual civil discussion.

teacher, however, had the authority to make the test easier.

 

[Ramadhan]

Got to love that atheist logic (or lack thereof)

They just want to have their cake and eat the whole thing too.

 

[Lynx]

God should bare some responsibility if he created this particular man with this particular drive and knew it would lead him to do this particular thing, which God doesn't want to happen. The dog could have held out for a couple more hours before peeing on the rug too. But as the owner, you know what is likely to happen if you set up the scenario. You don't know exactly what WILL happen though as you create the circumstance, as God would (making God more responsible).

I think your analogy is causing a little bit of confusion. If a dog is stuck outside he will necessarily pee outside. It's a physical constraint. A man who is tempted to commit adultery has no such constraint...The fact that God knows the outcome does not make the circumstance any less in the hands of the agent.

Or are you saying that if God knows that Peter is going to kill John then God should create a situation where Peter is not going to kill John as opposed to creating a situation where Peter will kill John? If that's your position then sure God definitely shares some responsibility.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Allah's Messenger explained Destiny in the best and simplest way;



[FONT=&quot]اعملو[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ا[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ف [/FONT][FONT=&quot]كل [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ميسر[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ل[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ما [/FONT][FONT=&quot]خلقه[/FONT]

i'maloo, fa kulu muyussaru li ma khuliqahu.

(Work (in good deeds), because everyone has had made easy for them what they have been created for). [i.e. heaven or hell]

[Sahih al Bukhari]


So if you want to be a person of Paradise, do the actions for that. If you want to be a person of hell, do the actions for that.

 

[جوري]

The teacher did not create the student with perfect knowledge of the test results they would receive before even admitting them to the course. And the teacher did not have the ability to create the student differently.

Teachers have a pretty good idea of the capabilities of their students, and the exams are standardized not to cater to the smart or the stupid, but only those who work hard... those with special needs go to special schools, capable ones are responsible for what they receive, but even more fair with God is that God is forgiving..

Yes of course, the obligatory snide remark to avoid actual civil discussion.

There is nothing civil about the way you address God, and you are so lucky that you got away with only an analogy!