Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

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monotheism and Christian trinitarianism is actually quite Jewish in origin.

You must make such a statement with confidence knowing that in the meanwhile there are no Jewish members on board to have a guffaw. I am yet to encounter a Jew and I know plenty who think Christianity is anything but a pagan farce!

all the best
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1377227 said:


You must make such a statement with confidence knowing that in the meanwhile there are no Jewish members on board to have a guffaw. I am yet to encounter a Jew and I know plenty who think Christianity is anything but a pagan farce!

all the best


There is a vast difference between Jewish thought today and Jewish thought 2000 years ago. So what you would hear from a Jew with regard to their beliefs today is not germane to the question being discussed.
 
Assalamu alaikum brother (essayak ya bahsa ;))

In the light of what you just mentioned, I have a few questions :

1) Is this information present only in the dead sea scrolls, or is it present also in the present scriptures that were before the discovery of the scrolls(I'm assuming the scrolls contain differences, correct me if i am wrong)

2) What does this say about the jews? Are they considerend this way mushrikeen?

more to come later...

You will find it in some of the Hebrew scriptures, but even more you find it in the Jewish apocyrpha and rabbinical midrash of the last couple of centuries BCE.
 
There is a vast difference between Jewish thought today and Jewish thought 2000 years ago. So what you would hear from a Jew with regard to their beliefs today is not germane to the question being discussed.

There is a vast difference between Christian thought today and Christian thought 2000 years ago. So what you would hear from a Christian with regard to their beliefs today is not germane to the question being discussed!

all the best
 
There is a vast difference between Jewish thought today and Jewish thought 2000 years ago. So what you would hear from a Jew with regard to their beliefs today is not germane to the question being discussed.

I think you are onto something about the jews practicing shirk and paganism prior and in the time of jesus pbuh.

And that's why Jesus pbuh was sent to the lost sheep of israel because the bani israel got deviant and even practiced shirks, in order to make bani israel to go back to the straigth path, the path of Noah, Abraham and Moses to worship one God.
Ironically of the highest order, as soon as his departure, some wicked jews (led by saul) started to make him as god.
 
There is a vast difference between Jewish thought today and Jewish thought 2000 years ago. So what you would hear from a Jew with regard to their beliefs today is not germane to the question being discussed.

I think you are onto something about the jews practicing shirk and paganism prior and in the time of jesus pbuh.

And that's why Jesus pbuh was sent to the lost sheep of israel because the bani israel got deviant and even practiced shirks, in order to make bani israel to go back to the straigth path, the path of Noah, Abraham and Moses to worship one God.
Ironically of the highest order, as soon as his departure, some wicked jews (led by saul) started to make him as god.
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1377324 said:


There is a vast difference between Christian thought today and Christian thought 2000 years ago. So what you would hear from a Christian with regard to their beliefs today is not germane to the question being discussed!

all the best

I can substantiate from still existing documents that have historical continuity back 2000 years the view I expressed. Can you do the same?
 
I can substantiate from still existing documents that have historical continuity back 2000 years the view I expressed. Can you do the same?

I doubt very much you can substantiate anything historically or religiously as pertains to events in the bible, without referencing to someone's dreams or sudden contrition or passages that are all together dubious in nature as they stand a contradiction to others citing the same event or are hearsay or written well after the fact of the matter . Which much like your words needs to be taken at face value.
Do you like wasting my time? I don't like having my time wasted!

all the best
 
Ironically of the highest order, as soon as his departure, some wicked jews (led by saul) started to make him as god.

Saul did see him that way, but he was not THE primary leader of the group. Rather, James and Peter were. And while it cannot be shown that James ever expressed a specific belief in the divinity of Jesus, Peter did on multiple occassions, and Peter also affirmed Paul's teaching, which as you say did include teaching regarding the divinity of Jesus. And after hearing Paul's report on his ministry and that of those who spoke against what he was doing, even James gave approval to Paul to continue to present the message he was presenting and that those who were trying to drag the church back into old Judaism were in the wrong. But, again, Peter not Saul (Paul) is the one who properly gets the credit for first introducing this concept.
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1377427 said:

Do you like wasting my time? I don't like having my time wasted!

all the best
If we were to agree to quit responding to each other's posts, then I wouldn't be wasting your time and you wouldn't be wasting mine. I'm happy to afford you that gift if you so desire.
 
If we were to agree to quit responding to each other's posts, then I wouldn't be wasting your time and you wouldn't be wasting mine. I'm happy to afford you that gift if you so desire.


Your time indeed is best invested directing your own exegesis of Jewish scriptures to the Jews and let's see how receptive they are to your renditions-- that is if you have any credibility at all!

all the best
 
Assalamu alaikum brother (essayak ya bahsa ;))

Alaikomosalaam ya prof.:sunny:

fine Alhamdulliah ...though had a bad cold lately...

I hope you are in the best health..

Is this information present only in the dead sea scrolls, or is it present also in the present scriptures that were before the discovery of the scrolls(I'm assuming the scrolls contain differences, correct me if i am wrong)

the texts which I believe the jews such time(who would become later christians) based their exegesis on ...is in the old testament, and the other Jewish writing outside the old testament.....
but as I said such faulty exegesis wasn't accepted by all Jews(more to say later regarding that point) .....

What does this say about the jews? Are they considerend this way mushrikeen?

If you mean the Jews in second temple period, then as Bro Naidamer said:
some jews had shirk concepts besides practicing forms of shirk prior and in the time of jesus pbuh.
the Jews then had trouble with pure monotheism such trouble been developed to the ultimate disaster of monotheism (trinity)....

and that is how Satan works ...he gets you to your destruction gradually....

that point will be concluded next post InshaAllah..


more to come later...

I hope InshaAllah
 
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Alaikomosalaam ya prof.:sunny:

fine Alhamdulliah ...though had a bad cold lately...

I hope you are in the best health..

May ALLAH(swt) grant you the best of health and may u recover soon isa (:exhausted prof eh bass, lessa badriiii awy)



the texts which I believe the jews such time(who would become later christians) based their exegesis on ...is in the old testament, and the other Jewish writing outside the old testament.....
but as I said such faulty exegesis wasn't accepted by all Jews(more to say later regarding that point) .....



If you mean the Jews in second temple period, then as Bro Naidamer said:
some jews had shirk concepts besides practicing forms of shirk prior and in the time of jesus pbuh.
the Jews then had trouble with pure monotheism such trouble been developed to the ultimate disaster of monotheism (trinity)....

and that is how Satan works ...he gets you to your destruction gradually....

that point will be concluded next post InshaAllah..




I hope InshaAllah

I was reading a book called "Al yad al khafiyya-diraasat fil 7arakat el suhyooniyya al haddama wal sirriya" written by Dr. Abdul wahab el messery. It basically was talking about the conspiracy theories about the jews and the protocols of zion and how it was fake propaganda started by the russians. He was criticizing the common held beleif that the jews are one monolithic entity that throughout the ages have conspired to control the world by passing on their hidden teaching plans across generations. He, however, mentioned that there was a large role played by jewish apostates and psuedo-jews in spreadign many types of destructive beleifs, particularly a group that brought in beleifs of gnosticism and kabbala, and how those groups beleived in concepts such as "we7dat al wujood" similar to some sufis and particularly their gradual elimiation of all concepts of sin and 7aram etc etc.

"and that is how Satan works ...he gets you to your destruction gradually...."

In conclusion it did seem that the jews went through very different phases in their religion.

Looking forward to your comments.
 
I was reading a book called "Al yad al khafiyya-diraasat fil 7arakat el suhyooniyya al haddama wal sirriya" written by Dr. Abdul wahab el messery..
Dr. Abdul wahab el messery is a well known writer,but to be honest I never read any of his books...... wish I have time to read the book ...
may be it add something benefitable to my arguments....


thanx Bro for such information...
 
Ironically of the highest order, as soon as his departure, some wicked jews (led by saul) started to make him as god.
Then why did Saul (or Paul) write in 1 Corinthians 8:6 "for us there is but one God, the Father"? He clearly did not identify Jesus with "the Father", this one and only God.
 
dear Hiroshi

as I said before the trinity proof text is controversal and could be rendered differently......
the words of Paul(as a whole) could be indeed understood as reference to divinity and could be understood otherwise...
( I can bring you such Pauline texts and we reflect together)
but that is not our problem as muslims ,as we should be out of such controversy

read my post again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ative-study-arranged-items-6.html#post1329752

we are out of such textual controversy between christian trinitarians and unitarians,as we have a stronger basis for rejecting the trinity than a text that could mean this or otherwise that......
I know that muslims, commonly ,in one hand attacking Paul as a deceiver who deformed the true message of jesus (I agree),yet continuously negating the possibility that he indeed believed in jesus as God.
Paul was a true monotheist just his writings were misunderstood by christians !!!!!!!! ....

I criticised that approach before ,the fact that unlike the Jehovah testimony and other christian unitarians ,we muslims have a more profound problem with the trinity...which can't be resolved even if the new testament if filled with certain trinity proof text......

I'm not trying to criticise you......just trying to show you what our position should be as muslims towards the trinity....

all the best
 
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peace

τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1377433 said:
I am yet to encounter a Jew and I know plenty who think Christianity is anything but a
pagan farce!

that is true ...

τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1377433 said:
Your time indeed is best invested directing your own exegesis of Jewish scriptures to the Jews and let's see how receptive they are to your renditions--

that is true too , no MODERN Jew would accept the christian exegesis of Jewish scriptures...

BUT

Graceseeker said:
There is a vast difference between Jewish thought today and (some) Jewish thought 2000 years ago.

If we modify the post putting the word (some),I would say, its true, too....

I wouldn't say those SOME second temple Jews accepted the christian exegesis of Jewish scriptures....
as the fact, it was them who invented such exegesis (details later)....

peace
 
If we modify the post putting the word (some),I would say, its true, too....

I can accept that amendment, the insertion of the term "some", to my previous post.

As I wrote it, I was thinking about more than just the issue of the development of trinitarian thought. And when one considers the total corpus of Jewish writing at the time, I think that one can show that on the whole Jewish thought of that day and today are vastly different from a number of reasons, only one of which would be that some Jews of that day believed in a more relaxed form of monotheism in attributing personality to things such as God's wisdom, God's spirit, God's word that a Muslim reading those ancient texts today would consider those views shirk, though Jews of that day would have still considered themselves to be monotheists. It was from those personifications of aspects of the divine being that Christians then proceeded to find ground on which the concepts that became eventually known as the doctrine of the Trinity developed.

I don't think that those first century Jews/Christians (including, maybe especially, Paul) ever once thought of themselves as anything other than monotheists just like Jewish brothers who were not Christians. But, unlike their non-Christian Jewish brothers they found in this particular strain of Jewish thought that was dominant in their time, reason to accept the idea that Jesus might indeed be the very presence of this one God now making himself known in the flesh even as he still reigned in heaven and also simultaneously became a living presence in their lives via his Spirit.


I wouldn't say those SOME second temple Jews accepted the christian exegesis of Jewish scriptures....
as the fact, it was them who invented such exegesis (details later)....

Again, agreed. As I alluded to above, it was the presence of that sort of exegesis that those who followed Christ relied upon as they looked back upon their time with him and came to the conclusion that he was indeed God come among them. The question I would have of them, that I don't think we can clearly answer from the Christian scriptures, is when, in their mind did Jesus become divine? Had Jesus always been God? Certainly the birth narratives were written to make that point. Or was it only because of his complete and lifelong submission to the Father that he was elevated by the Father to that status? That position being more reflected in Paul's writings, which makes it all the more ironic how Muslims attack Paul.

One mistake that I think far too many people make, both those who try to defend and those who try to refute Christian doctrine today, is to think that Christian theology was fully formed from the beginning. The truth is that the disciples (and there were many more than 12) who had followed Jesus were lost and did not know what to think at first. That is one of the reasons they are reported as hiding in the Upper Room. And even when they emerged from their to proclaim Jesus' message, while I do think that we see in Peter's initial sermon recognition of the Lordship (and therefore divinity) of Christ, that message was initially a call simply an eschatological kerygma. By that I mean, they taught that Jesus was God's instrument for bringing to fulfillment the promise of the end times and the setting of everything right in the world. This primitive kerygma has as its focus the death and exaltation of Jesus and the proclamation of his Lordship. And by Lordship they meant so much more than a mere honorific title. It was indeed a challenge to the emperor who had given himself the title "Lord of the Universe," rejected by all Jews because such a claim was to usurp God's status. So, when Peter made such a claim with regard to Jesus he was very knowingly either claiming that Jesus was God come to make himself known and complete what God had promised he would do, or that Jesus was a usurper of God's throne. As the latter does not fit the rest of what Peter had to say about Jesus, it seems that Peter was making claims for Jesus divine nature from the very beginning. But much of what that meant and other ideas had not been thought through. I believe we see these develop in the scriptures not instantaneously, but over time. An example would be the use of the term "Christ". At first it was simply the Greek translation of Jesus' role as the Messiah, but in time it became to be used first as a title and then almost as a proper name. Even Jesus' own message of the kingdom of God would be fleshed out more over time.

Yet while, in a sense, all theology will continue to develop as people continue to reflect on it, it also seems to me that the essential substance of this new and specifically Christian (vis-a-vis Jewish) theology would reach completion before the passing of the first generation of the church. The books that were to become the corpus of the New Testament were all completed and in widespread distribution. The rituals for baptism, celebration of the eucharist, and other rituals connected with worship in the emergent church had been developed and disseminated through a manual such as the Didache. And the process of the transmission of authority from the apostles to the next generation of leaders had been established. But those future generations would continue the process of reflection on what had been established by Christ and asserted by the apostles and it would be those reflections that would provide the manner in which doctrines such as the Trinity would be articulated -- based on their understandings of what had been proclaimed by the first generation, which you and I (even if no one else does) seem to agree found fertile soil for germination in the way turn of the millenium Judiasm conceived of God.
 
some Jews of that day believed in a more relaxed form of monotheism in attributing personality to things such as God's wisdom, God's spirit, God's word that a Muslim reading those ancient texts today would consider those views shirk, though Jews of that day would have still considered themselves to be monotheists. It was from those personifications of aspects of the divine being that Christians then proceeded to find ground on which the concepts that became eventually known as the doctrine of the Trinity developed. .

I Agree...


I don't think that those first century Jews/Christians (including, maybe especially, Paul) ever once thought of themselves as anything other than monotheists .


I agree ...


Again, agreed. As I alluded to above, it was the presence of that sort of exegesis that those who followed Christ relied upon as they looked back upon their time with him and came to the conclusion that he was indeed God come among them. .

I have problem with accepting that those who followed Jesus ,known him in person ,would use such sort of exegesis ...

If peter ,John etc ..were truly disciples and used such sort of exegesis(which been proven to me to be highly misleading), then we can safely assume that Jesus was betrayed by his own disciples ,presenting his mission in a form that never been intended to be.....

but my believe in the Quran doesn't allow me to buy such concept......... the message of Jesus wasn't betrayed by his disciples (the Quran praised them twice)........
once the Quran proven to me false.... that won't convince me that the New Testament right ...

We have a group of people (call them disciples or whatever)contradict themselves, using flawed exegesis in numerous instances in their writings.......

If we continue calling them disciples then ok let's call them disciples?

disciples of deception.......

As I promised I will expose their exegesis ,and let the reader judge them himself .....

peace
 
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I look forward to continued reading of your posts. And I can even understand why your belief in the Qur'an would preclude you from accepting some of the things that I do. And though we are going to differ with regard to more than just a few things, I appreciate that you have taken the time to be so thourough in your research and analysis.
 
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