"Questions for Jehovah Witnesses"

[Hiroshi]

I basically studied my way out of Mormonism over 10 years ago. It took a long time for me to embrace anything else although I looked at a lot of different religions over the years.

I was a complete atheist myself at the age of 17. But I began to take an interest in JWs because my mother and my older brother had started to study with them. I was full of questions and made quite a nuisance of myself. One thing that discouraged me was that JWs seemed to be very unpopular. Everyone laughed at them. And so everyone laughed at me when I began to study and attend meetings (even my own father!). But I stuck with it. Now I believe that it was the right thing to do.

 

[Hiroshi]

That is precisely why they say ''Islam is a thinking man's religion'' truly captures all conquered and conqueror alike.. as I was reading today of the raid of the Mongols and thought Genghis must be rolling in his grave knowing his own offspring not only embraced Islam but out of them came the mamluks and the spread into southeast Asia..Usually the conquerors impose their beliefs on the conquered not succumb to those of the indigenous people....

The Muslims in my community take their religion and religious studies far more seriously and with much more commitment than the half-hearted church goers.

 

[Woodrow]

The Muslims in my community take their religion and religious studies far more seriously and with much more commitment than the half-hearted church goers.

That is very true for most Muslims every place. Perhaps we have much more incentive. All of our choices are our own responsibility and we alone accept the consequences of our sins. Nobody is going to pay the price for us, we alone are the one who needs to beg for the mercy of Allaah(swt) and strive for genuine repentance. When we die it is too late and we will pay a very horrible eternity for our unforgiven sins.

 

[Hiroshi]

That is very true for most Muslims every place. Perhaps we have much more incentive. All of our choices are our own responsibility and we alone accept the consequences of our sins. Nobody is going to pay the price for us, we alone are the one who needs to beg for the mercy of Allaah(swt) and strive for genuine repentance. When we die it is too late and we will pay a very horrible eternity for our unforgiven sins.

When JWs go from door to door in London where I live, we find mostly people with very little faith at all. Foreigners seem to have more knowledge and respect for the Bible than most English people. And hardly anyone believes in Adam and Eve apart from Muslims.

 

[Woodrow]

When JWs go from door to door in London where I live, we find mostly people with very little faith at all. Foreigners seem to have more knowledge and respect for the Bible than most English people. And hardly anyone believes in Adam and Eve apart from Muslims.

The secular world has no desire to believe that we all are Brothers and Sisters in Humanity. It is scary for some to think that their ancestors probably had different color skin.

Those thoughts are shut out, if they can believe we all do not share the same family tree.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

I was a complete atheist myself at the age of 17. But I began to take an interest in JWs because my mother and my older brother had started to study with them. I was full of questions and made quite a nuisance of myself. One thing that discouraged me was that JWs seemed to be very unpopular. Everyone laughed at them. And so everyone laughed at me when I began to study and attend meetings (even my own father!). But I stuck with it. Now I believe that it was the right thing to do.

I have done some study of Jehovah's Witness theology but not a lot. One of the things that kept me from wanting to study with them was my time spent learning koine Greek. When I read the JW Bible I was not convinced that they had the best translation. Some of it contradicted my Greek studies so I didn't go very far with them. They use their own Bible and that was a red flag for me.

The other thing that kept me away was my time in Japan as a missionary. Although I really admired the JWs in Japan, and they were more successful than the Mormons, I once met a lady who was a pretty staunch JW with whom I had quite an experience.

She was willing to discuss the Bible with us and listen to our point of view, and we would listen to her. As the discussion progressed I pointed out to her that if she believed in the whole Bible she had to believe that Jesus and Jehovah were the same. I used 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 and Exodus 33:9. They both refer to Jehovah talking to Moses in the cloudy pillar and Paul in Corinthians notes that this was actually Christ (you may want to read the verses yourself).

That was the crack in the foundation of her belief and it wasn't long before she was baptized a Mormon.

So I was never convinced in the theology that the JWs espoused, but always did admire them.

Maybe you have an answer for the two scriptures I listed above. She didn't. It seems to undercut a basic JW belief.

:wa:

 

[جوري]

That was the crack in the foundation of her belief and it wasn't long before she was baptized a Mormon.

sob7an Allah akhi, if she could have met you now instead of then..

 

[Hiroshi]

The other thing that kept me away was my time in Japan as a missionary. Although I really admired the JWs in Japan, and they were more successful than the Mormons, I once met a lady who was a pretty staunch JW with whom I had quite an experience.

:wa:

I love Japan. Which part did you visit? I have been around Hokkaido and some parts of Honshu, particularly near Tokyo.

She was willing to discuss the Bible with us and listen to our point of view, and we would listen to her. As the discussion progressed I pointed out to her that if she believed in the whole Bible she had to believe that Jesus and Jehovah were the same. I used 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 and Exodus 33:9. They both refer to Jehovah talking to Moses in the cloudy pillar and Paul in Corinthians notes that this was actually Christ (you may want to read the verses yourself).

In the Bible I have often found that an angel representing Jehovah will speak as if the angel actually is Jehovah. The one that said "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" was really an angel (Exodus 3:2; Acts 7:30). Also the one that spoke to the Israelites in the wilderness appearing in a cloud was an angel (Acts 7:38) possibly Jesus in his pre-human existence.

But 1 Corinthians 10:4 doesn't actually say that the being in the cloud was Christ. It says that the rock was Christ. While in the wilderness, the Israelites were miraculously provided with water from striking a rock on two occasions. It was as if a great rock-mass was following them, giving them water. Just as the Israelites were given water from rock so Christians receive spiritual water through Jesus. Hence the rock represented Christ. But I don't see how this would identify Jesus with Jehovah.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Muslims in my community take their religion and religious studies far more seriously and with much more commitment than the half-hearted church goers.

That is very true for most Muslims every place. Perhaps we have much more incentive. All of our choices are our own responsibility and we alone accept the consequences of our sins. Nobody is going to pay the price for us, we alone are the one who needs to beg for the mercy of Allaah(swt) and strive for genuine repentance. When we die it is too late and we will pay a very horrible eternity for our unforgiven sins.

Yes. Sadly a falsehood has spread like an opiate through much of the Christian community convincing them that once one has said some sort of magic words or been washed with magic water that they need not continue to work out their salvation and live a holy life. The Bible teaches no such thing, but many churches do.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Hiroshi, I spent most of my time on Kyushu (Nagasaki, Fukuoka, etc.) and a few months in Okinawa. Nagasaki has an amazing Christian history - they crucified people who would not deny Christ. And there was a Christian underground that survived there from the time that Christianity was banned. That was my favorite city, although I really loved Okinawa.

You said:

In the Bible I have often found that an angel representing Jehovah will speak as if the angel actually is Jehovah. The one that said "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" was really an angel (Exodus 3:2; Acts 7:30). Also the one that spoke to the Israelites in the wilderness appearing in a cloud was an angel (Acts 7:38) possibly Jesus in his pre-human existence.

But 1 Corinthians 10:4 doesn't actually say that the being in the cloud was Christ. It says that the rock was Christ. While in the wilderness, the Israelites were miraculously provided with water from striking a rock on two occasions. It was as if a great rock-mass was following them, giving them water. Just as the Israelites were given water from rock so Christians receive spiritual water through Jesus. Hence the rock represented Christ. But I don't see how this would identify Jesus with Jehovah./QUOTE]

Well I think we have a good example of how people of different faiths put a different interpretation on the same words of the same text. You see it differently than others. One can in good faith say that it is Jehovah speaking just as someone else can say it is Jesus in his pre-existent state speaking and someone else say it is an angel. Most mainstream Christians would say that it is Jehovah and that it supports the concept of the trinity. Mormons see it as Christ speaking and that he was the God of the OT and also Jehovah. But that he had a father (Elohim-I know it makes no sense in Hebrew). JWs obviously have a different interpretation.
The beauty of Islam is that you have the Qur'an which makes it clear that there is One God. You don't have to engage in all this uncertainty.

 

[Hiroshi]

Hiroshi, I spent most of my time on Kyushu (Nagasaki, Fukuoka, etc.) and a few months in Okinawa. Nagasaki has an amazing Christian history - they crucified people who would not deny Christ. And there was a Christian underground that survived there from the time that Christianity was banned. That was my favorite city, although I really loved Okinawa.

I have never been to Kyushu but many people tell me that it is beautiful. I have only explored the northernmost parts of Japan because I have family and friends there. It can be cold in wintertime. I once tried skiing on some of the snow covered mountains. I love both the people and the culture of Japan.

 

[truth finder]

Sometimes I meet and talk with some believers from fake Christianity. Some of the well-known such religions are Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons. I just want to talk about their familiar tactics, but this is also true with many other religions in the world. They accept part of the Bible and regard Jesus as one of the prophets, but not as a divine being. Since they have some overlap with the original belief, they have some foundation to start with. But because their religion is based on the previous belief (Christianity in this case), they lack their own unique origin. In order to compensate their lack of originality, they had to write their own scripture that is claimed to be the final revelation of God. In order to establish and justify their new religion, they also had to propose their own prophet who is claimed to be the final prophet of God. Their scripture and their prophet are claimed to be superior to the previous (the Bible and Jesus in this case). As a result, in order to promote their religion as the best religion in the world and to hide their sense of inferiority, they have to spend a lot of time and effort in attacking the original scripture and its belief instead of focusing on their own new religion. It is like a dirty trick in election. If a candidate realizes he/she cannot win the election with the policy, all he/she does is to damage the image of the opponent by criticizing everything negatively. It is like a foul scheme in coup d’état (coup in short). In order to establish their legitimacy, all they do is to damage the previous regime falsely for corruption and impurity for which they claim to be the solution.

This is not restricted only to Jehovah’s Witness and its cousins, but also to many other religions in the world. We have seen this familiar behaviour numerous times since Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago. Please take a moment to examine which religions belong to this class, namely, writing their own scripture and/or setting up their own prophet claiming the final word and/or prophet of God, and accusing the previous belief for corrupting the previous scripture to justify their new religion. To be honest with you, I would be very likely to follow the same tactic if I want to start a new religion, because history shows it has been working well.

 

[Grace Seeker]

truth finder, you may find more than just a few who agree (or disagree) with your expressed view regarding Jehovah's Witnesses. Like you I disagree with much of Hiroshi's theology. But it is his right to be wrong if he so chooses, and it is also his right to feel that he is correct in his beliefs and (within the scope allowed by this forum) share them. This particular thread is not so much for challenging and labeling his views, but for exploring them. If you can confine expressing your doubts to doing so in the form of a question and less as declarative statements, I think that will be more in keeping with the focus of this thread.

 

[جوري]

Sometimes I meet and talk with some believers from fake Christianity. Some of the well-known such religions are Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons. I just want to talk about their familiar tactics

:haha: do you think their familiar tactics are any more or less worse than yours? You are all heathens as far as others are concerned.. does it matter whether you are 10% astray or 90% astray?

all the best

 

[Hiroshi]

Sometimes I meet and talk with some believers from fake Christianity. Some of the well-known such religions are Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons. I just want to talk about their familiar tactics, but this is also true with many other religions in the world. They accept part of the Bible and regard Jesus as one of the prophets, but not as a divine being.

Hi Truth Finder. I will be happy to discuss any specific points of teaching that you may want to talk about. JWs believe the whole Bible, not just part of it. And we do regard Jesus as a divine being. But we do not believe that Jesus is the same God that the Father is.

 

[Hiroshi]

You said:

In the Bible I have often found that an angel representing Jehovah will speak as if the angel actually is Jehovah. The one that said "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" was really an angel (Exodus 3:2; Acts 7:30). Also the one that spoke to the Israelites in the wilderness appearing in a cloud was an angel (Acts 7:38) possibly Jesus in his pre-human existence.

But 1 Corinthians 10:4 doesn't actually say that the being in the cloud was Christ. It says that the rock was Christ. While in the wilderness, the Israelites were miraculously provided with water from striking a rock on two occasions. It was as if a great rock-mass was following them, giving them water. Just as the Israelites were given water from rock so Christians receive spiritual water through Jesus. Hence the rock represented Christ. But I don't see how this would identify Jesus with Jehovah./QUOTE]

Well I think we have a good example of how people of different faiths put a different interpretation on the same words of the same text. You see it differently than others. One can in good faith say that it is Jehovah speaking just as someone else can say it is Jesus in his pre-existent state speaking and someone else say it is an angel. Most mainstream Christians would say that it is Jehovah and that it supports the concept of the trinity. Mormons see it as Christ speaking and that he was the God of the OT and also Jehovah. But that he had a father (Elohim-I know it makes no sense in Hebrew). JWs obviously have a different interpretation.
The beauty of Islam is that you have the Qur'an which makes it clear that there is One God. You don't have to engage in all this uncertainty.

Mormons believe in the trinity don't they? Does their view of the trinity differ from that of other churches?

 

[truth finder]

Hi Truth Finder. I will be happy to discuss any specific points of teaching that you may want to talk about. JWs believe the whole Bible, not just part of it. And we do regard Jesus as a divine being. But we do not believe that Jesus is the same God that the Father is.

If I had been too declarative or offensive about your religion as Grace Seeker suggested, I apologize you and will try to refrain myself.

Maybe our definition for being divine seems to be different. What I meant Jesus is divine is that he has the same power and authority as the Father. Is that also what you meant? As far as I know, the word "divine" is reserved for Being other than human beings and angels.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Mormons believe in the trinity don't they? Does their view of the trinity differ from that of other churches?

No they don't believe in the trinity. It makes no sense to them. They believe that each person in the Godhead is a separate and distinct being. God the Father is Elohim. The Son is Jehovah (Jesus). The third member is the Holy Spirit. God the Father and Jesus Christ have tangible resurrected bodies. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. They are one in purpose only.

Jesus was the God of the OT and then came down in the flesh as the Son. This isn't a very good analogy but the best that I can do is that Jesus (Jehovah) acts like a prime minister and Elohim is like the King. Jehovah is the one that you see in the scriptures. He acts like both Father and Son in the scriptures. In the book of Revelation there are also some confusing passages that cause them to believe that an angel can act like God through "divine investiture." This all sounds crazy to me now but I once believed in all that nonsense.

Anyway, it is not very well defined and I believe is in a state of flux. When I was growing up they used to teach that a man may someday become a God of planets if he follows all the commandments. The doctrine is called eternal progression. It was a doctrine taught by Joseph Smith just before he died but the modern day mormon church stays a bit quiet on that one although the average member still believes in it. They don't make a big deal about the teaching publicly but at church in their meetings they still talk about it. IMHO Mormonism is a bit like Scientology only not quite so crazy.

To me, Islam makes the most sense of ANY religion in its teaching about God (Allah). There is One God. No equals, no sons of God, no one can be equal, or be compared to or approach God, avoid Shirk, etc. The shahada sums it up. There is no God but God and Mohammad is his Messenger. Now that is hard to argue with is it not? :statisfie

 

[Insaanah]

Sometimes I meet and talk with some believers from fake Christianity. Some of the well-known such religions are Jehovah’s Witness and Mormons. I just want to talk about their familiar tactics, but this is also true with many other religions in the world. They accept part of the Bible and regard Jesus as one of the prophets, but not as a divine being. Since they have some overlap with the original belief, they have some foundation to start with. But because their religion is based on the previous belief (Christianity in this case), they lack their own unique origin. In order to compensate their lack of originality, they had to write their own scripture that is claimed to be the final revelation of God. In order to establish and justify their new religion, they also had to propose their own prophet who is claimed to be the final prophet of God. Their scripture and their prophet are claimed to be superior to the previous (the Bible and Jesus in this case). As a result, in order to promote their religion as the best religion in the world and to hide their sense of inferiority, they have to spend a lot of time and effort in attacking the original scripture and its belief instead of focusing on their own new religion. It is like a dirty trick in election. If a candidate realizes he/she cannot win the election with the policy, all he/she does is to damage the image of the opponent by criticizing everything negatively. It is like a foul scheme in coup d’état (coup in short). In order to establish their legitimacy, all they do is to damage the previous regime falsely for corruption and impurity for which they claim to be the solution.

This is not restricted only to Jehovah’s Witness and its cousins, but also to many other religions in the world. We have seen this familiar behaviour numerous times since Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago. Please take a moment to examine which religions belong to this class, namely, writing their own scripture and/or setting up their own prophet claiming the final word and/or prophet of God, and accusing the previous belief for corrupting the previous scripture to justify their new religion. To be honest with you, I would be very likely to follow the same tactic if I want to start a new religion, because history shows it has been working well.

I feel this needs replying to from an Islamic viewpoint, so have started a new thread so as not to derail this one.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134301864-islam-not-new-religion.html#post1383270

Peace.

 

[Grace Seeker]

we do regard Jesus as a divine being. But we do not believe that Jesus is the same God that the Father is.

No [Mormons] don't believe in the trinity. It makes no sense to them. They believe that each person in the Godhead is a separate and distinct being. God the Father is Elohim. The Son is Jehovah (Jesus). The third member is the Holy Spirit. God the Father and Jesus Christ have tangible resurrected bodies. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. They are one in purpose only.

So, if I understand you two correctly, both JWs and Mormons would be polytheistic -- believing in more than one divine being.