Saudi prince jailed for life for murder of servant

[GuestFellow]

Re: Homosexual Saudi prince jailed for life for murder of servant

In the case of people, questions usually ARE asked, ultimately in the form of a trial. A trial, being ultimately a human activity is subject to error; many murder convictions are overturned. Bit late if the person has been hung or fried, isn't it?

How about in the case where a 21 year old man is wrongly convicted of murder, receives life imprisonment, gets beaten up, mocked or even raped by other prisoners and after 35 years later, due to DNA evidence it was found that he was wrongly convicted of murder? He is going to be 56 years old when he leaves prison. It is not too late here? Unfortunately, some people might still suspect him and probably might be suffering from a mental condition such as depression.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Homosexual Saudi prince jailed for life for murder of servant

How about in the case where a 21 year old man is wrongly convicted of murder, receives life imprisonment, gets beaten up, mocked or even raped by other prisoners and after 35 years later, due to DNA evidence it was found that he was wrongly convicted of murder? He is going to be 56 years old when he leaves prison. It is not too late here? Unfortunately, some people might still suspect him and probably might be suffering from a mental condition such as depression.

I'm afraid I don't see your point?

Sure, in that unfortunate instance much time has been lost and pain suffered. I see no reason not to take the example to its logical conclusion where the miscarriage of justice is never discovered and the man dies in prison. In either case, though, there is no way of knowing in advance what will happen... only a slight change in circumstances might result in the conviction being overturned in a few years, or even months. But surely you can't be suggesting that it is somehow beneficial to innocent victims of a miscarriage of justice that everyone be executed (and, by logical extension, as soon as possible) as this is preferable to the unpleasantness of the possible alternative?! I can accept that a guilty man, knowing he has no chance of reprieve, might prefer an immediate death to life without parole, but not an innocent one, or at least an innocent one in a sound state of mind (such a hopeless seeming position may well make one depressed and suicidal).

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Homosexual Saudi prince jailed for life for murder of servant

I'm afraid I don't see your point?

Well let me help you. The outcome of the death penalty and life imprisonment can both be horrible for innocent people. Keep in mind, there are things much worse than death.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Homosexual Saudi prince jailed for life for murder of servant

Well let me help you.

You would do that by responding to my second paragraph? I believe it takes full account of your last response.

 

[Ansariyah]

This fills me wit disgust autho'billah but I'm happy that he committed this crime in a country where he can't buy his freedom with his 'Ayraab moneeey'. However I'm not so pleased with the 20 years, I reckon he shouldve gotten atleast 80 years men like this should never be let out into the world.

 

[Darth Ultor]

Life? LIFE? If a regular Saudi citizen did this, they'd give him a trial that lasts for one day and then they'll take his head off. Are the Royals above the law?

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Homosexual Saudi prince jailed for life for murder of servant

You would do that by responding to my second paragraph? I believe it takes full account of your last response.

I was simply presenting an example, how traumatic life imprisonment can be for innocent defendants. : P

You would do that by responding to my second paragraph?

No need to.

 

[Ramadhan]

Life? LIFE? If a regular Saudi citizen did this, they'd give him a trial that lasts for one day and then they'll take his head off. Are the Royals above the law?

the crime happened in London, he was tried and sentenced in London court.

 

[Pygoscelis]

death, unless the family of the murdered/killed forgive the killer.

This right here underscores Trumbles point above. If forgiveness by the family is sufficient to let the man escape the death penalty, then clearly the only reason for it was vengeance and bloodlust. Other reasons may have been detterence (Other people may be less likely to do what he did if he's hanged for it) and possibility of re-offence. But both of those concerns are still there even if the family forgives the man. So as Trumble said, you're left with the base instincts of vengeance and bloodlust and nothing more. That is barbarism indeed.

Now, sprinkle in a little tribal thinking, and you've got those reciprocal murders that hit the news from time to time. One gang kills a member of another, and then the other gang strikes back killing a member of the first gang (who may have had nothing to do with the first killing). We should elevate ourselves above this.

 

[Ramadhan]

This right here underscores Trumbles point above. If forgiveness by the family is sufficient to let the man escape the death penalty, then clearly the only reason for it was vengeance and bloodlust.

For you, a punishment for unjust murders maybe few years behind the bar, and you call it civilized.
but for muslims we have guidance from God, and what is more just punishment for unjust murder than death.
So for you the punishment for Hitler or stalin is few years behind the bar, right?

Now, sprinkle in a little tribal thinking, and you've got those reciprocal murders that hit the news from time to time. One gang kills a member of another, and then the other gang strikes back killing a member of the first gang (who may have had nothing to do with the first killing). We should elevate ourselves above this sort of barbarism.

How is your example related to this discussion?
In Islam, the punishment for a crime can only be served after the trial of the crime and sentence by an Islamic court/judge.

 

[Ramadhan]

We should elevate ourselves above this.

A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.

 

[GuestFellow]

A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.

I highly doubt many people would forgive the rapist/murderer. In addition, someone who does something so sick and dangerous, needs to be executed in order to protect society and deter others.

So for you the punishment for Hitler or stalin is few years behind the bar, right?

Personally, I think Hitler and Stalin are just as bad as individuals who have taken one innocent life. Killing one person is bad enough as it is and to kill millions...

So as Trumble said, you're left with the base instincts of vengeance and bloodlust and nothing more. That is barbarism indeed.

Personally, I don't see it as barbaric.

Now, sprinkle in a little tribal thinking, and you've got those reciprocal murders that hit the news from time to time. One gang kills a member of another, and then the other gang strikes back killing a member of the first gang (who may have had nothing to do with the first killing). We should elevate ourselves above this.

It is not tribalism at all, individuals cannot take the law into their own hands. This should take place through the criminal justice system.

Life? LIFE? If a regular Saudi citizen did this, they'd give him a trial that lasts for one day and then they'll take his head off. Are the Royals above the law?

This event took place in London. The prince is not above the law in the UK. In Saudi Arabia, the Royal Monarchy are considered to be above the law.

 

[Trumble]

A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.

Why? Nobody has mentioned forgiveness or anybody 'walking free'. There is no logical link between the positions, as is clearly demonstrated in practice in countries that do not have capital punishment.. your hypothetical murderer wouldn't 'walk free' in any of them. Such an individual would spend the rest of their life in jail or a high-security psychiatric hospital (which in this case, frankly, seems more likely).

 

[Pygoscelis]

A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.

No... because there are other reasons other than this bare vengeance and bloodlust you have in mind to keep them locked up or even in some cases to execute them, as I wrote in my previous post. Please go back and re-read it.

 

[Asiyah3]

No... because there are other reasons other than this bare vengeance and bloodlust you have in mind to keep them locked up or even in some cases to execute them, as I wrote in my previous post. Please go back and re-read it.

Peace,

Allah, may He be Glorified and Exalted, gave us guidance and sent us a messenger (saas) with clear signs from amongst ourselves.

Please understand that you don't believe in the existence of God. As an Atheist you probably don't know what murder is in reality, in Islam.

Would you cry the same way if Hitler or Stalin were killed for their crimes? In Islam, killing one person is like slaying the whole humankind and saving one person is like saving the whole mankind. Do you think death to the person who caused death to the whole mankind – millions of innocent men, women and children – is vengeance and bloodlust? In a country like Saudi Arabia people – those who commit murder – know well that their punishment will be death for death. They are aware of this and it is their own choice whether to choose death (by murdering an innocent person) or not.

5:32 Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

 

[Ramadhan]

No... because there are other reasons other than this bare vengeance and bloodlust you have in mind to keep them locked up or even in some cases to execute them, as I wrote in my previous post. Please go back and re-read it.

But who decide one person is a menace and another is not? Isn't a judge or jury subjective?
What is the line that divide the mere murderer from not so mere murderer that deserves death?
How many lives must they kill in order to deserve death penalty?

What is the definition of bare vengeance and bloodlust anyway?

Also, as I have repeatedly explained to you. For muslims, the punishment for murder is not based on our whims and desires, but based on the law that God SWT has laid for us.
I understand that it is very difficult for you to uderstand that, being an atheist and all?

 

[Pygoscelis]

For muslims, the punishment for murder is not based on our whims and desires,

death, unless the family of the murdered/killed forgive the killer.

These two statements conflict. Which do you actually believe?

 

[Ramadhan]

These two statements conflict. Which do you actually believe?

It does not conflict.

We follow Allah's guidance as told in the Qur'an. By "our whims and desires" meaning we decide on punishment others than what Allah SWT has allowed us.

An example of whims and desires for punishments for murders can be found in the US:
a murderer can receive punishment from walk free, 1 year jail, lifetime jail, death penalty, depending on how good lawyers you can afford. There is no consistency whatsoever, there is no standard. Anything goes.
or a punishment for murderers can result in a whole nation being attacked, invaded, a millions killed and raped. THAT is bloodlust and vengeance.

 

[GuestFellow]

It does not conflict.

We follow Allah's guidance as told in the Qur'an. By "our whims and desires" meaning we decide on punishment others than what Allah SWT has allowed us.

I agree.

An example of whims and desires for punishments for murders can be found in the US:
a murderer can receive punishment from walk free, 1 year jail, lifetime jail, death penalty, depending on how good lawyers you can afford. There is no consistency whatsoever, there is no standard. Anything goes.
or a punishment for murderers can result in a whole nation being attacked, invaded, a millions killed and raped. THAT is bloodlust and vengeance.

Sorry but I do not understand this post. Can you please explain this again?

 

[Ramadhan]

Sorry but I do not understand this post. Can you please explain this again?

I meant that in the US judicial system, there is no certainty whatsoever over the sentence/punishment for murderer.
The outcome of a murder trial can be so random. It ranges from no punishment to death penalty, depending on the quality of the lawyers, demographic of the jury, etc. And this is a failing to give at least a sense of justice to the victims or to the society.