Quote unquote skepticism

[CosmicPathos]

Using that logic then God must have a beginning also, otherwise he could not exist.

Your mind can almost grasp the concept of timeless infinity going forward, but not going backwards. If one exists then so can the other.

But then most religious people will fall back, again, on the argument that the rules don't apply to God. It is like most arguments for the existence of God in that it is circular.

a fallacy by equating definition of God with definition of matter. Essentially severing your own argument by postulating God cannot be infinite because if He can then universe can be. We never argued that God is similar to the universe. your point is BS. A 13 year old blonde can see through it.

 

[titus]

We never argued that God is similar to the universe

I know. That is why I said "But then most religious people will fall back, again, on the argument that the rules don't apply to God. It is like most arguments for the existence of God in that it is circular. "

Your premise is predicated on the fact that God exists. You give him magical properties that you say don't apply to the rest of the universe and say that that explains everything.

Sorry, I don't agree with that. That logic is what I find to be, to use your term, BS that a 13 year old can see through.

 

[Ramadhan]

One more comment on this. Me and Pygoscelis agree pretty much on this, we just phrased it differently. Pygo's point was simply that, by definition, an atheist does not believe that God created by the universe and that by definition that does not preclude aliens from having done so.

So, this is my understanding:

someone can believe that the universe is created by aliens, and he is still an atheist.
But as soon as those aliens named God, he becomes a theist.
correct?

So atheism is just an aversion to God, right?

 

[Ramadhan]

Give me evidence and I would change my mind.

This I know: no amount of evidence will satisfy you.

Thus doth Allah Make clear His Signs to you: In order that ye may understand. (QS. 2:242)

Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise. (QS. 2:164)

Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them. (QS.2:99)

Say those without knowledge: "Why speaketh not Allah unto us? or why cometh not unto us a Sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the Signs unto any people who hold firmly to Faith (in their hearts). (QS2:118)

And among them are those who listen to you, but We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. Even when they come to you arguing with you, those who disbelieve say, "This is not but legends of the former peoples." (QS. 6:25)

 

[Lynx]

So, this is my understanding:

someone can believe that the universe is created by aliens, and he is still an atheist.
But as soon as those aliens named God, he becomes a theist.
correct?

So atheism is just an aversion to God, right?

Well I think before discussing this topic with an atheist the members of the discussion should agree with a definition of God. Some people might think their computer is God and could successfully argue that their God exists. Does being the creator of the universequalify as God? I think some atheists would want more than just 'the being that created the universe'; perhaps they'd want that being to be omniscient or omnipotent before they can call it God.

 

[titus]

atheism is just an aversion to God, right?

Not an aversion to God. A disbelief in God.

This I know: no amount of evidence will satisfy you.

You are wrong there.

Certainly, though, quoting from a holy book that claims that God exists is not even remotely evidence.

 

[جوري]

Certainly, though, quoting from a holy book that claims that God exists is not even remotely evidence.

It isn't evidence for God's non-existence either -- so I wish many of you would stop quoting folks like Dawkings and other equally dead and in the conventional sense 'philosophers' as if their own delusions are evidence for anything!

all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

You are wrong there.

Maybe I am wrong, but that's my experience with most atheists.

Certainly, though, quoting from a holy book that claims that God exists is not even remotely evidence.

Actually, you are the one who is wrong.
I did not quote those ayats from the qur'an as evidence for the existence of God.
The ayats address mushreekeens (atheists, etc) who stay in disbelief despite the numerous and overwhelming evidence for the existence of God. No amount of evidence is enough for them.
See, Allah in the Qur'an has addressed the likes of you more than 1,400 years ago.

 

[Ramadhan]

Well I think before discussing this topic with an atheist the members of the discussion should agree with a definition of God. Some people might think their computer is God and could successfully argue that their God exists. Does being the creator of the universequalify as God? I think some atheists would want more than just 'the being that created the universe'; perhaps they'd want that being to be omniscient or omnipotent before they can call it God.

So does this mean that atheists object that the universe is created by omniscient, omnipotent, omnitemporal, eternal being, but may accept that the universe is created by aliens/supercomputer/computer-simulation?

 

[Pygoscelis]

So, this is my understanding:

someone can believe that the universe is created by aliens, and he is still an atheist.
But as soon as those aliens named God, he becomes a theist.
correct?

Only if those aliens are also supernatural and powerful.

So atheism is just an aversion to God, right?

Not sure what you are meaning here by "aversion".

 

[Hugo]

It isn't evidence for God's non-existence either -- so I wish many of you would stop quoting folks like Dawkings and other equally dead and in the conventional sense 'philosophers' as if their own delusions are evidence for anything!

It is obvious one cannot have evidence for non-existence so what you say here is meaningless.

 

[titus]

And since I never quoted Dawkings or any other "philosopher" the rest of the post is meaningless also.

 

[جوري]

It is obvious one cannot have evidence for non-existence so what you say here is meaningless.

I really can't afford to whittle my time on your linear and often circular thinking and this tedious spoon feeding step by step progression from which you never in fact seem to make progress. It is not only a waste of my time but an utter insult frankly.
One needs not see the bee to know where the honey came from. Until such a time a scientifically sound method offers an explanation for all that is in existence whereby we can render religious texts fairy tales, can we also equally ignore other brands of fairy tales by way of Zoro's zen or Hume or whomever else.

notice no one has actually brought any verses into this topic.. look at the many faulty premises you and atheists alike introduce into topics to steer it into a cul de sac?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Until such a time a scientifically sound method offers an explanation for all that is in existence whereby we can render religious texts fairy tales, can we also equally ignore other brands of fairy tales by way of Zoro's zen or Hume or whomever else.

Just curious: have you ever read anything by David Hume?

notice no one has actually brought any verses into this topic.. look at the many faulty premises you and atheists alike introduce into topics to steer it into a cul de sac?

Naidamar did, right here.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Just curious: have you ever read anything by David Hume?

Don't you know that all such reading is exclusive to under-paid, down on their luck English teachers?

 

[Pygoscelis]

So does this mean that atheists object that the universe is created by omniscient, omnipotent, omnitemporal, eternal being, but may accept that the universe is created by aliens/supercomputer/computer-simulation?

Yes. An atheist may believe the latter. If many do is another question, but it isn't atheism that would stop them. Many atheists also happen to be skeptics (where this thread started) and that may stop them.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Until such a time a scientifically sound method offers an explanation for all that is in existence whereby we can render religious texts fairy tales, can we also equally ignore other brands of fairy tales by way of Zoro's zen or Hume or whomever else.

It is hard to tell what lily means to say here but this appears to either be her equating her religion to fairy tales ( which seems unlikely) or an appeal to god of the gaps thinking. Just because we don't know something doesn't make it reasonable to believe wholeheartedly in a religious explanation. And just because we can not disprove something doesn't make is plausible. This is what the point the celestial teapot analogy was invented to illustrate.

 

[جوري]

It is hard to tell what lily means here but this appears to either be her equating her religion to fairy tales ( which seems unlikely) or an appeal to god of the gaps thinking. Just because we don't know something doesn't make it reasonable to believe wholeheartedly in a religious explanation. And just because we can not disprove something doesn't make is plausible. This is what the point the celestial teapot analogy was invented to illustrate.

what is more devastating to your argument here than resorting to your brand of religion to affirm your personal beliefs? In fact that is exactly what we are arguing against if you cared to gauge a topic beyond the superficial. The difficult questions seem elusive to the lot of you so why the false pretenses?
Come back when you can compose of your own substance and not rely so much on your own brand of religious texts. Do you believe you can carry a conversation without a reference to a dead philosopher (such as you've done above) with Russell's 'teapot'?

all the best

 

[Lynx]

So does this mean that atheists object that the universe is created by omniscient, omnipotent, omnitemporal, eternal being, but may accept that the universe is created by aliens/supercomputer/computer-simulation?

hi
i think it means an atheist can accept both. the only difference is the being that created the universe and is omniscient/omnipotent/etc is traditionally defined as God whereas a supercomputer is not God since it's lacking some essential characteristics that we think qualifies something as God. therefore, an atheist would not be an atheist if they accepted the former but an atheist could be an atheist while accepting the latter.

 

[M.I.A.]

You give him magical properties that you say don't apply to the rest of the universe and say that that explains everything.

the most gracious, the most merciful.

Well I think before discussing this topic with an atheist the members of the discussion should agree with a definition of God. Some people might think their computer is God and could successfully argue that their God exists. Does being the creator of the universequalify as God? I think some atheists would want more than just 'the being that created the universe'; perhaps they'd want that being to be omniscient or omnipotent before they can call it God.

omniscient

your computer did not put the stars in the sky or create anything.. but it links you to people of the world(the creation), so there maybe some truth in the statement.. although the people may beg to differ.

omnipotent

i could argue an omnipotent god by definition would have so much power that the creation would be very hard pressed to comprehend how gods perfect system works.

if you want definate proof that god exists you have to look for god, not in any one person in particular but in your world, there is order in chaos... dont forget there are like six billion people and six billion stories in the world so its not all gonna go your way, but thats life.