Pictures/Images and Music - I'm curious about a few things...

[nature]

It's better to avoid cartoons

I dont understand this ? kids grow up watching this sort of stuff ? theres even islamic cartoons on the islam channel ?

Everyone should note that if it is not clear why something is haraam, it is probably because we lack knowledge.

agree. I just dont understand sometimes why everything has to turn into a big argument on this forum ? instead of peaceful discussion ? like you sed, some of us lack knowledge.

 

[Insaanah]

The hadeeth quoted in the fatwa posted by Br perseveranze talks about singing and does not talk about musical instruments. But then, without quoting any hadeeth as evidence, goes on to say:

the same is true of musical instruments so long as they are not used for the above, have been considered as permissible.

This is what rasoolullah :saws: said about musical instruments:

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This is a saheeh hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh, where he quoted it as evidence and stated that it is mu’allaq and majzoom. He said: Chapter on what was narrated concerning those who permit alcohol and call it by another name.

This hadeeth indicates in two ways that musical instruments and enjoyment of listening to music are haraam. The first is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “[they] permit” which clearly indicates that the things mentioned, including musical instruments, are haraam according to sharee’ah, but those people will permit them. The second is the fact that musical instruments are mentioned alongside things which are definitely known to be haraam, i.e., zinaa and alcohol: if they (musical instruments) were not haraam, why would they be mentioned alongside these things? (adapted from al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 1/140-141)

Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This hadeeth indicates that ma’aazif are haraam, and ma’aazif means musical instruments according to the scholars of (Arabic) language. This word includes all such instruments. (al-Majmoo’, 11/535).

Brief extract from full source: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/5000/music

I am permitted to disagree with scholarly consensus whether you think I am or not, and I think that in this case at least their interpretations are flawed and selective and reflect their own biases. May it be on my own head for daring to think for myself.

The four imams are in unanimous agreement of music being haraam, Sheikh Ibn al Qayyim, Ibn Taymiyyah, Sheikh Al-Albaani and many, many others, including sahaabah, taabieen, followers of taabieen are agreed that music is haraam. Their evidence has been based on saheeh ahadeeth and Qur'anic exegesis. May Allah forgive them all for their "flawed and selective interpretations and reflections of their own biases." I submit that it was precisely due to people "thinking for themselves" that other religions got changed, and that is it precisely due to us sticking to the Qur'an and sunnah and not making up our own interpretations that our deen has not been corrupted, alhamdulillah.

 

[Alpha Dude]

I wasn't trying to say that permissibility comes from usefulness. I was responding to what someone else had said about music not having practical value at all.

Fair enough.

I am permitted to disagree with scholarly consensus whether you think I am or not, and I think that in this case at least their interpretations are flawed and selective and reflect their own biases. May it be on my own head for daring to think for myself.

You are permitted to believe as you please, yes. However, if you then wish to go on and promote something that goes against the consensus then you will find people (rightfully, imo) attacking such beliefs.

 

[Tyrion]

Please don't let this become a debate thread... I've heard the arguments before, so can we focus on the questions I brought up and not the permissibility of music/drawing?

Tyrion, for clarification, do you follow actual scholars when you believe music + animate drawings are not haram or do you just go with the flow based on the opinions of people around you?

While I've been told that my position is not the majority, based on my own research there do exist legitimate scholarly opinions that disagree with the mainstream. I've researched these, and I personally find the reasoning and evidences more convincing.

Once again though, I don't want to get into a debate about who's right and who's wrong. I've heard all the debates before, and I'm pretty sure having another one here won't do anyone any good. I would like however for people to at least acknowledge that there can be a different view on the matter.... That would be nice. But yeah, let's stay on topic and refrain from debating por favor.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Scholars are only human, even in great numbers. Even if those numbers are quadrillions. Of course I am too, and so are you. Our religion went wrong the day we elevated them from merely being heirs of the prophets in terms of what their task is to being actually tantamount to prophets in terms of accuracy. It is no better than Catholicism with their cardinals and popes, or for that matter any secular branch of academia where anyone holding minority viewpoints is sneered at and spat upon, even though academics should know better than anyone else that most of the greatest discoveries in history which led to majority viewpoints today came from people who originally got that treatment.

 

[Tyrion]

No, you're not, but every time I've tried to explain why they are not haraam the mods edit it out or delete the post. It's a shame, because in actual reality truth (whatever that truth happens to be) always looks even truer when compared to falsehood, so you'd think being allowed to express a dissenting opinion, even if it's wrong, would be a good thing. Not to them, though: don't be surprised if this thread gets quickly locked like so many others. Tolerance is virtually nonexistent here. As much as I love my religion itself I despise the way it's practiced. It has become corrupted in the same way that Catholicism corrupted Christianity, in which the church fathers (or in our case, scholars) are treated as though they were infallible, at least if 51% or more of them happen to agree, and anyone who goes against the majority is not merely unorthodox or minority but an outright blasphemer. These are not good times for our religion or for open-mindedness in general.

It's good to know that I'm not the only one here with certain views.

I love my religion itself I despise the way it's practiced.

This reminded me of something a speaker once said in a lecture... Something about a recent convert to Islam who had told him something along the lines of, "Thank God I learned about Islam before I met the Muslims." I found it terribly sad, but at the same time a very understandable thing to say...

 

[Insaanah]

There is no analogy to be even remotely made between cardinals and popes that corrupted Christianity/Catholicism, and our sahaabah, taabieen, followers of taabieen and righteous scholars who guarded Islam.

 

[CosmicPathos]

The reasons yahya gave for music being beneficial, one might derive the same benefit from committing zina. Committing zina with a new woman every week relieves many males from worldly tensions. blah blah. Of course Allah has clearly forbidden zina in Quran. But just like how you said everything in life has good and bad sides, then perhaps apply that to zina too, maybe it has good sides too, at least in the minds of those who commit it. Does it make it right? no, since Allah has called it filthy.

 

[Alpha Dude]

Scholars are heirs and are to be afforded the appropriate respect.

Saying that, nobody should hold any individual scholar to be perfect and infallible. Scholars use their ijtihaad on doubtful matters after having done many years of study of primary sources. It is because of this knowledge that they are in a posistion to give out judgements.

We are told in the Quraan to ask those who know. This is why it is wise of us who lack knowledge to follow the understanding of those who have studied. One lone scholar may make a mistake which is why it would be better to go with consensus.

 

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

I'll just avoid Music simply because it's too debated and there's some doubt. But I won't go around saying it's haram or anything, just a personal avoidance of it.

 

[Alpha Dude]

The question I ask is, how can we people who have not studied arabic rhetoric, arabic morphology, arabic lexicology, nor have the complete Sahih Sita memorised in arabic, along with knowledge of the science of hadith collection and classification, Quranic exegis, asbab al nuzul (the circumstances of revelation), the rules of abrogation - for both the Quran and Sunna and understanding of the ijtihad of the 4 rightly guided caliphs even think to question the judgement of people who have?

How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.

 

[CosmicPathos]

The question I ask is, how can we people who have not studied arabic rhetoric, arabic morphology, arabic lexicology, nor have the complete Sahih Sita memorised in arabic, along with knowledge of the science of hadith collection and classification, Quranic exegis, asbab al nuzul (the circumstances of revelation), the rules of abrogation - for both the Quran and Sunna and understanding of the ijtihad of the 4 rightly guided caliphs even think to question the judgement of people who have?

How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.

I have to agree. Many scholars have said that the prohibition of music is actually directly mentioned in Quran. What do your immature internet warrior Muslim youngsters do? Go to usc msa website, get the English translation of that verse and tell us "aaha, music is not mentioned in Quran." As much funny it sounds, it is really damaging many young Muslims.

 

[IAmZamzam]

The reasons yahya gave for music being beneficial, one might derive the same benefit from committing zina. Committing zina with a new woman every week relieves many males from worldly tensions. blah blah. Of course Allah has clearly forbidden zina in Quran. But just like how you said everything in life has good and bad sides, then perhaps apply that to zina too, maybe it has good sides too, at least in the minds of those who commit it. Does it make it right? no, since Allah has called it filthy.

What did I say before? That I didn't mean that music is permissible just for having useful properties, but instead was rebutting someone who said that it didn't have any.

 

[IAmZamzam]

The question I ask is, how can we people who have not studied arabic rhetoric, arabic morphology, arabic lexicology, nor have the complete Sahih Sita memorised in arabic, along with knowledge of the science of hadith collection and classification, Quranic exegis, asbab al nuzul (the circumstances of revelation), the rules of abrogation - for both the Quran and Sunna and understanding of the ijtihad of the 4 rightly guided caliphs even think to question the judgement of people who have?

How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.

Because there is no law of the universe stating that learned people cannot be wrong, even in consensus, nor in ways that those with less educational credentials cannot spot. It actually happens all the time, with both religious and secular subjects. All branches of academia are equally plagued with biases taught as part of the curriculum itself. Funny how you never hear anyone applying such logic to evolution: you know less about science than their learned scholars do and they have reached a very huge consensus, but does that automatically mean they're right and you have no right to speak out in disagreement? You can't have it both ways.

 

[IAmZamzam]

How this thread managed to make it to a third page is beyond me. Perhaps the mods haven't seen it yet, otherwise one of them surely must have locked it with a post containing some kind of tendentious final word of their own.

 

[aamirsaab]

I do not think any of us here are qualified to take on the words of scholars. Be that as it may, I do know of some dodgy stuff that goes amongst certain circles of alleged scholars and sheiks (with particular regards to Islamic banking).

To cut straight to the point: we should always be mindful of our teachings. Do not just follow blindly; if you feel the need to investigate on a particular matter, do so. Not everything in Islam is black and white.

 

[GuestFellow]

How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.

All humans do this. For example, I've met some Muslims that disagree with evolution and believe scientists are incorrect. However, these Muslims have not studied Science at all, some did not even pass their GCSE Science, let alone be in the position to challenge a Scientist holding a Ph.D and studied evolution for years. Some people question politicians who haven't got a clue about how the political system is organised or how policies are introduced. Some even question historians who have studied history for years.

There are many Muslims that question scholars who have studied Islam for years. Some believe there is a possibility that they might be wrong. I'm sure all of us can agree that even the most intelligent scholar can make a mistake, it is a possibility. Some Muslims believe these scholars are influenced by their own culture or some don't trust them at all.

The only mistake these type of people make is challenging scholars, without having studied Islam properly.

All I can say if you disagree with another Muslim, whether educated or not, disagree respectfully.

 

[Alpha Dude]

Because there is no law of the universe stating that learned people cannot be wrong, even in consensus, nor in ways that those with less educational credentials cannot spot. It actually happens all the time, with both religious and secular subjects. All branches of academia are equally plagued with biases taught as part of the curriculum itself.

Of course they can be wrong but their mistakes should be taken to task by other learned people and this happens all the time and it's perfectly acceptable.

However, lay people who know jack about the sciences are only acting on their arrogance and ego when they claim with no scholarly reason that a mistake has been made.

Music is not haraam, ok - why? What proofs from within Islamic sources have you seen to make you question the consensus? If you can show proof, then that's fine and can be respected as a difference of opinion but if your only proof is something like 'music has a lot of benefit in it and I personally find it to be ok' then it's meaningless.

Funny how you never hear anyone applying such logic to evolution: you know less about science than their learned scholars do and they have reached a very huge consensus, but does that automatically mean they're right and you have no right to speak out in disagreement? You can't have it both ways.

This analogy doesn't apply here. Of course a scholar of evolution will know more about evolution than a lay person like myself but it would not be evolutionary proof that I would take them to task on, rather I would challenge them with the proof of Islam being true (which would automatically render the evolutionary conclusion a moot one).

 

[Insaanah]

It is sad to see analogies being made between haqq and baatil, Islamic knowledge and evolution, and rightly guided sahaabah and scholars being compared with Christian cardinals and popes.

 

[Tyrion]

Uhmm, can we get back on topic please? This thread was not created to start a debate, and I fear that a mod will close it soon if you all don't get back on track.