The Truth about Christmas

[titus]

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith - 808

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The black stone descended from Paradise whiter than milk, but the sins of the descendants of Adam made it black."

Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it, the latter saying that his is a hasan sahih tradition.

Source

From the Qur’an and Hadith we learn that the Ka`bah was the first House established for mankind to worship Allah. Almighty Allah says, (Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Mecca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples.) (Aal `Imran 3: 96) It is not mentioned in any verse of the Qur’an or authentic Hadith that it was built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him).
Some commentators of the Qur’an say that it was first built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him) and some others say that it was first built by the angels on this earth.

Source

The Black Stone has been around since the time of Adam, according to this Hadith, and some believe that Adam built the Kaaba for it. That is why I made the comment about Adam and Eve. I understand your getting information about Christianity wrong but I didn't expect you to be so ignorant of Islam.

To think I was actually going to go through all the names and custodians of Kaaba since it was built by Abraham (p) until it fell into pagan Arab hands to its recovery by Muslims..

You can list all you want, but what is the source of the list?

 

[جوري]

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith - 808

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The black stone descended from Paradise whiter than milk, but the sins of the descendants of Adam made it black."

Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it, the latter saying that his is a hasan sahih tradition.

Source

From the Qur’an and Hadith we learn that the Ka`bah was the first House established for mankind to worship Allah. Almighty Allah says, (Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Mecca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples.) (Aal `Imran 3: 96) It is not mentioned in any verse of the Qur’an or authentic Hadith that it was built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him).
Some commentators of the Qur’an say that it was first built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him) and some others say that it was first built by the angels on this earth.

Source

The Black Stone has been around since the time of Adam, according to this Hadith, and some believe that Adam built the Kaaba for it. That is why I made the comment about Adam and Eve. I understand your getting information about Christianity wrong but I didn't expect you to be so ignorant of Islam.


You can list all you want, but what is the source of the list?

He isn't talking about the 'black stone' rather the circumambulation around the ka'aba to idols.. you seem perpetually confused? Or do you want to take yourself to some ground where you feel your fifth grade education will rescue you?
Whether the house goes back to Adam or Abraham it wouldn't make a bit of a difference. However if we wish to carry the ritualistic acts themselves we can trace them back to the time of Abraham (p)

Some sources for you to browse as I don't have all day to re-write a history book for forum clowns.

1M. Mohar Ali, Sirat An Nabi vol iA pp3-31
P.K Hitti, History of the Arabs
Jawad Ali 223
OT declares Arabs and Jews Descendants of Shem son of Noah
King James Genesis 21:10
Al bukhari Sahih Al Anbyia hadith nos 3364-65 with ibna Hajar commentary
''The city and state of Mecca '' Islamic culture vol. 12 (1938) p 258
Lammenes, la Macque A la vielle de l'Hegire pp 234-239

As for the custodians of the house
Some two hundred years prior to the birth of the prophet, Qusayy a keenly intelligent, powerful and highly administrative chieftain, ascended with the ranks of Makkaah's political scene. Taking advantage of the Byzantine interest in Makkah, he acquired their help in securing full control of the city while successfully remaining outside Byzantine Influence and neglecting regional interest.

Qusayy (365) ce>>>>>>> Abu Manaf>>>>>>> Hashim>>>>>>>Abdulmutlib >>>>>>>>>>>Muhammad..

if people are interested in how paganism started after Abraham to the later pagan Arab custodians I have no reservations sharing that at a later time.

As for our dear atheist friend.. what sources are sufficient for you? We're not talking about black stones not that the stone bears any importance religiously or/spiritually-- it is in fact used as a point of origin for one to count their journey around. However, we're merely questioning the logic or lack thereof of a a fundie who prefers to bring everything down to his low common denominator outside of recorded history so that we'd all be equal in folly!
Try to make a habit of reading the posts before jumping to the aid of man worshiping fundies or introducing your desired bits into the topic or say nothing all together, it might be better than proving yourself a meandering fool!

all the best

 

[titus]

He isn't talking about the 'black stone' rather the circumambulation around the ka'aba to idols.. you seem perpetually confused? Or do you want to take yourself to some ground where you feel your fifth grade education will rescue you?

The pagans used the stone as part of their worship. It was not inconsequential to their beliefs. Are you not aware of this? Is this news to you?

OT declares Arabs and Jews Descendants of Shem son of Noah
King James Genesis 21:10

Genesis 21 is about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, not Noah or Shem. It has nothing to do with the Kaaba anyway.

As for our dear atheist friend.. what sources are sufficient for you?

To show that the Kaaba did not start as a pagan place of worship? Give me any non-Muslim source that states that and we can go from there. Non-Muslim would include any documentation from before the time of Mohammad.

 

[جوري]

The pagans used the stone as part of their worship. It was not inconsequential to their beliefs. Are you not aware of this? Is this news to you?

what does this have to do with:

Why it would be like observing that once in ancient times the Arabs used to engage in an annual pilgrimage to Mecca where they would walk around the Kabah in which idols had been placed and thereby somehow arrive at the conclusion that because of the similarity of some of these practices that anything that today resembled that practice must be of pagan origin.

or Islamic beliefs?

Genesis 21 is about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, not Noah or Shem. It has nothing to do with the Kaaba anyway.

As you can see the sources I have listed are one by one:
1-1M. Mohar Ali, Sirat An Nabi vol iA pp3-31
2-P.K Hitti, History of the Arabs
3-Jawad Ali 223
4-OT declares Arabs and Jews Descendants of Shem son of Noah
5-King James Genesis 21:10
6-Al bukhari Sahih Al Anbyia hadith nos 3364-65 with ibna Hajar commentary
7-''The city and state of Mecca '' Islamic culture vol. 12 (1938) p 258
8-Lammenes, la Macque A la vielle de l'Hegire pp 234-239

therefore the king James 20:10 speaks of the sons of Abraham unrelated to the OT declaring Arabs and Jews descendants of Shem that preceded IT number (4) .. are you clutching on to straws? I have stated that I don't have the time to quote an entire book so I'll give all the referenced sources to complete a full historical reference. If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how it originated then by all means share it!

To show that the Kaaba did not start as a pagan place of worship? Give me any non-Muslim source that states that and we can go from there. Non-Muslim would include any documentation from before the time of Mohammad.

I have no idea what this mean do see my previous paragraph or rather let me re-quote it as you get easily confused!

If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how the rituals originated then by all means share it!

 

[titus]

what does this have to do with:

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
Why it would be like observing that once in ancient times the Arabs used to engage in an annual pilgrimage to Mecca where they would walk around the Kabah in which idols had been placed and thereby somehow arrive at the conclusion that because of the similarity of some of these practices that anything that today resembled that practice must be of pagan origin.

or Islamic beliefs?

If you don't know what the black stone or the Kaaba has to do with pagan rituals of the past or Islamic beliefs then I simply suggest you read more.

therefore the king James 20:10 speaks of the sons of Abraham unrelated to the OT declaring Arabs and Jews descendants of Shem that preceded IT number (4) .. are you clutching on to straws? I have stated that I don't have the time to quote an entire book so I'll give all the referenced sources to complete a full historical reference. If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how it originated then by all means share it!

So you are stating that the OT is accurate?

Regardless, I still have yet to see how any of those sources show that the Kaaba or the black stone were part of an Islamic tradition before they were part of a pagan one.

If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how the rituals originated then by all means share it!

I know of nobody that disagrees that the Kaaba was once used by pagans. I have never seen a non-Muslim source, though, that claims that it was used by Muslims before the pagans used it, which you claim. My belief, and the belief of many, is that Mohammad simply adapted some pagan worship rituals to his new religion (much as you denigrate Christians for doing). Can you come up with any historical evidence that contradicts that?

 

[جوري]

If you don't know what the black stone or the Kaaba has to do with pagan rituals of the past or Islamic beliefs then I simply suggest you read more.

If you don't know what this topic is about or have an otherwise accurate chronological historical events of its origination then I simply suggest you read more.. and in fact perhaps that will also help you stick with the topic at hand in lieu of injecting it with nonsense and then wasting everyone's time as you try to extricate yourself from your foolishness!

So you are stating that the OT is accurate?

We're not looking at the OT from a religious point of view rather a historical one. If these are the history books you've around then that is what you use.. again, I invite you if you have something of substance and historical accuracy to share then please do, or quit wasting my time!

Regardless, I still have yet to see how any of those sources show that the Kaaba or the black stone were part of an Islamic tradition before they were part of a pagan one.

Once you read them come and argue this point- don't ask for sources only to dismiss because you're too lazy to do some serious work, and the only thing you can hope to gain out of this exercise in futility is to somehow make comparable oranges and apples, when you subscribe to neither and worse yet have zero knowledge of both!

I know of nobody that disagrees that the Kaaba was once used by pagans. I have never seen a non-Muslim source, though, that claims that it was used by Muslims before the pagans used it, which you claim. My belief, and the belief of many, is that Mohammad simply adapted some pagan worship rituals to his new religion (much as you denigrate Christians for doing). Can you come up with any historical evidence that contradicts that?

Prove it.. Show me the name and date that of that first Arab pagan who built the Kaaba and from accurate historical used by university sources and we can lay this to rest!.. you'll forgive me but you knowing of nobody or knowing somebody doesn't have much weightiness in the scheme of things. Either put up or shut up!

all the best

 

[Insaanah]

I know of nobody that disagrees that the Kaaba was once used by pagans. I have never seen a non-Muslim source, though, that claims that it was used by Muslims before the pagans used it, which you claim. My belief, and the belief of many, is that Mohammad simply adapted some pagan worship rituals to his new religion (much as you denigrate Christians for doing). Can you come up with any historical evidence that contradicts that?

We don't need to. You are the one making the allegation. We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs. As a Christian (if you are one), you may rely on Hindu sources to substantiate your beliefs, but we don't rely on non-Muslim sources to substantiate ours. The onus is on you to provide your evidence for the allegation that you are making that the ka'bah was originally built to be a pagan place of worship.

Peace.

 

[جوري]

We don't need to. You are the one making the allegation. We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs. As a Christian (if you are one), you may rely on Hindu sources to substantiate your beliefs, but we don't rely on non-Muslim sources to substantiate ours. The onus is on you to provide your evidence for the allegation that you are making that the ka'bah started off as a pagan place of worship. Peace.

fact is I have given him a list of sources not all of them Islamic and names of custodians of the Ka'aaba, something he has been unable to do outside of throwing his baseless assertions to defend something he doesn't even believe in and not out of principal (I'd have found that admirable) but out of a desire to be some sort of deus ex machina to our forum fundie!

 

[titus]

We don't need to. You are the one making the allegation. We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs.

Exactly my point.

fact is I have given him a list of sources not all of them Islamic and names of custodians of the Ka'aaba, something he has been unable to do outside of throwing his baseless assertions to defend something he doesn't even believe in and not out of principal (I'd have found that admirable) but out of a desire to be some sort of deus ex machina to our forum fundie!

All I am asking for is a non-Islamic source that says that the Kaaba was originally Muslim. If it doesn't exist then just say so.

 

[جوري]

Exactly my point.

You have NO point and worse yet unwilling to read if what is written contradicts your delusions!

All I am asking for is a non-Islamic source that says that the Kaaba was originally Muslim. If it doesn't exist then just say so.

All I am asking is for a credible historical source that says the Kaaba was originally Pagan. If it doesn't exist then just say so!

all the best

 

[جوري]

To get back on track and outside of our dear friend's embarrassing hiccups:
if we are to look exclusively at our religious books:

Paran in the Bible is Mecca today:
The sections of this article are:
1- Paran in the Bible is Mecca today.
2- Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran.
3- Mecca, Bacca and Paran.
4- More Verses on Paran.
5- Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca.
6- Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries
suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert.

7- Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today.
8- Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!
9- References/Links.
In this article I will prove that "Paran" in the Bible is indeed referring to the city or the region of Mecca in Saudi Arabia today, where Prophet Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was born
and received the Divine Revelations of Islam.

Important Note:
After finishing this article, please also visit:​

The detailed story of how the Kaaba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael peace be upon them.​

The Kaaba is the House of GOD Almighty, and it too was mentioned in the Bible.​

Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran:
Let us look at the following Verses: "Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"
Hagar was an Arab. Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran.
Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation; "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 17:20)"
The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
Kedar came from Ishmael; "These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. Kedar and Ancient Arabs (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 25:13)" The Arabian desert region was named after Kedar. See the second map below.

The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians. They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 37:25)" "take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt. It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction. When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street. The house could be on the north side. The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.
The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt. They came from another land. They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt. Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling. And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

Mecca, Bacca and Paran:
Let me paste for you the following Verses from the Bible and the Noble Quran:
"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)"

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)"

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:17-21)"

More Verses on Paran:
"Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.
"After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 12:16)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.
"So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 13:3)"
"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 1:1)"

Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca:
Atharva Veda X, 2, Mantras 28 and 31
28. Whether it is built high, its walls are in a straight line or not, but God is seen in every corner of it. He who knows the House of God, knows it because God is remembered there.
31. This abode of the angels has eight circuits and nine gates. It is unconquerable, there is eternal life in it and it is resplendent with Divine light.
The Ka'bah is not exactly cubical and its sides are not of the same length. The Holy Sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka'abah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying and supplicating to Allah (the One True God). Muslims face toward it during prayer forming circle in the Haram (Holy House) and the circle extends out in this manner throughout the planet Earth.
The holy sanctuary (Haram) has remained unconquerable. Abraha al-Ashram, the Abbysinian viceroy of Yemen, tried to demolish it in 570 CE with a strong army and hordes of elephants but was prevented from entering the city (Holy precinct). The people of Makkah had decided not to defend the Ka'bah, fled the city and took refuge in nearby hills overlooking Ka'bah. By Allah's Command, the 'Abaabeel' (flying creatures, birds) pelted stones at Abraha's army and decimated it, leaving them like green crops devoured by cattle.
This incident is described in the Surah (chapter) 105 of the Qur'an. The year 570 CE is popularly known by the Arabs as 'The year of the Elephant,' and Prophet Muhammad was born in that year.

Source

The hajj is commanded in the Qur'an - "And pilgrimage to the House is a duty unto God for mankind, for him who can find the way thither" (3:97) - and its rites were established by Muhammad, but Muslim tradition dates it back to Adam and Abraham, who were instructed by angels in the performance of the rites. The hajj was one of the last public acts of worship performed by Muhammad before his death.
In part, the hajj commemorates the stories of Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael and it has been assigned various other meanings throughout the centuries. For many Muslims, one of the most meaningful aspects of the pilgrimmage is the unifying effect of bringing together believers from all over the world to meet and worship together.
Upon arrival at the boundary of Mecca (about six miles from the Ka'ba), pilgrims enter the state of ihram (purity) in which they will remain throughout the hajj. Males entering this pure state don the ihram garments - two white, seamless sheets wrapped around the body - and sandals. This aspect of the rite not only signifies the state of holiness the pilgrims have entered, but it serves to contribute to a sense of equality and unity by removing visual indicators of class, wealth and culture. Requirements for women are less stringent, but they usually dress in white with only faces and hands uncovered. While in the state of ihram, pilgrims must not cut their nails or hair, engage in sexual relations, argue, fight or hunt.
When he or she enters the city of Mecca, the pilgrim first walks around the Ka'ba seven times (the tawaf, or circumambulation) while reciting the talbiya, then kisses or touches the Black Stone in the Ka'ba, prays twice towards the Station of Abraham and the Ka'ba and runs seven times between the small mountains of Safa and Marwa.
The second stage of the hajj takes place between the 8th and 12th days of Dhu al-Hijja, beginning with a sermon (khutba) at the mosque on the 7th day. On the eighth day and night, the pilgrim stays at Mina or Arafat. On the ninth day, the ritual of wuquf ("standing") takes place at the small hill of Jabal al-Rahma in Arafat. The pilgrim then returns to Muzdalifa, a small town within the Meccan boundaries, to stay the night.
The tenth day is Eid al-Adha (The Feast of Sacrifice), a major holiday observed by all Muslims. For those participating in the hajj, the day is spent in Mina, where the pilgrim sacrifices an animal to commemorate Abraham's sacrifice and throws seven small stones at each of three pillars on three consecutive days (the pillars represent sins and devils). The pilgrim then returns to Mecca, where he or she once again performs the tawaf (circumambulation of the Ka'ba). The head is then shaved or the hair is trimmed, which marks the end of the state of ihram.

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/practices/hajj-pilgrimage.htm

So with that Seeker, go ahead and show me in your scriptures where Jesus (p) dispels the myth that his birthday the alleged 25th is NOT a pagan practice, and where he specifically states also from the bible, go ahead and celebrate my birth on the 25th. put up trees and lie to children that a santa clause exists..

I'll be waiting!

all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't care what their origins were. The only thing I care about is what we currently make of them.

of course you don't. No surprise there. That's why you are still a christian.
How many christians today who actually care about the actual origin of christianity, the idea of god who died to pay off men's sins, and the pagan worships and idol worships?
Once they question it, they will become agnostics or atheists (just like what's happening in the western countries), or if they come with the true message of islam, they will revert.

Think of, oh say..... potatoes. Potatoes are grown in the ground and their growth is often aided with manure. Despite where they come from, though, I know that once I get hold of it it turns into something tasty.

LOL.
I am amused at christians tendency to create analogies to explain christian concepts.
This potato thing is new to me
Christmas as a potato in the ground who grew because of manure?
;D

 

[Grace Seeker]

We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs.

If you are going to only rely on Muslim sources for your beliefs, then you will surely have no objection and find it completely consistent that Christians do not rely on the non-Christian sources that Muslims use to try to denegrate Christianity.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

If you are going to only rely on Muslim sources for your beliefs, then you will surely have no objection and find it completely consistent that Christians do not rely on the non-Christian sources that Muslims use to try to denegrate Christianity.

We don't need any other sources apart from the Bible itself to prove that Jesus is NOT the son of God. NO where in the Bible does Jesus state to worship him nor is there any mention of the pagan origins of trinitarian beliefs which were established several hundred years after the death of Jesus (Peace be upon him).

We worship GOD Almighty in the direction of His Grand Temple/House. We never worship the Temple/House itself. The Bible's Prophets in the Bible also had a "House of GOD Almighty" that they worshiped Him in. Also, the Jews' wailing wall today is a similar example to the Muslims' Kaaba, where the Jews pray to GOD Almighty facing the wall. The Bible also says:

"I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

GOD Almighty's Holy Temple in Islam is the Kaaba in Mecca.

"Behold! We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying): 'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer). And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"

As we clearly see, the "House of GOD" Almighty is mentioned in both the Bible and the Noble Quran. The Prostration to GOD Almighty in either His House or in the direction of His House (if you live far away) is the most proper way of Worship according to both the Bible and the Noble Quran.

As we also clearly see, the House of GOD Almighty was mentioned in the Bible first. The Kaba or Kaaba (the black cube building in Saudi Arabia) is basically the symbolic point on earth (His House) that GOD Almighty Chose to have all of His True Believers meet Him through bowing down their faces in humility down to the ground before Him.

The actual bricks and cement that make up the Kaaba are not holy.

Some anti-Islamics tried to compare the Muslims' bowing towards the Kaaba to the hindus' deification and glorification of their stones, by making idol gods and holy temples for these gods out of them. Islam is far from this!

The hindus glorification of stones and rocks is not Islamic. We do not worship neither the Kaaba nor the black stone. In fact Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said in his famous saying that:

لهدم الكعبة حجراً حجراً أهون من قتل المسلم‏

"Demolishing the Kaaba completely is much more preferred to Allah Almighty than shedding the blood of a Believing Muslim."!

Why should this be of any surprise, when Allah Almighty had brought down all of the Angels under the feet of the human-believers when He commanded them to bow down to Adam?

So no, we do not worship rocks and stones.

So when Muslims prostrate to Allah Almighty, they prostrate in the direction that is as close as possible to Him. It was also prophesied in the Noble Quran that people from all over the world would come to the city of Mecca (where the Kaaba is located) for pilgrimage.

Please visit: The detailed story of how the Kaaba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael peace be upon them.

During the early days of Islam, the Muslims were commanded to bow down to Allah Almighty in the direction of the Farthest Mosque (Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa) in Jerusalem, because it was the Holiest Mosque/Temple to worship Allah Almighty in back since it was not defiled with idols. Allah Almighty then commanded Prophet Muhammad to order the Muslims to prostrate to Allah Almighty in the direction of the Kaaba in Mecca, because it was the House of GOD Almighty which was built by Prophet Abraham peace be upon him (mentioned also in the Bible), and because after the Muslims liberated Mecca in a 10,000 men army (this event was prophesied in the Bible), they cleaned the Kaaba from all idols.

Even Jesus, peace be upon him, bowed down to Allah Almighty the Islamic way:

"Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:39)"

When Muslims bow down to Allah Almighty in worship at their homes, they do not for instance bow down to the sofa, or to the pair of shoes, or to the table, or to the wall, or to the door, or to the TV, or to any object that is in front of them in their homes. They bow down to Allah Almighty only, regardless what's in front of them AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPING THAT OBJECT. The Kaaba is the same thing. We do not bow down to it in worship in any shape or form. We bow down only to Allah Almighty in its direction because it is His Appointed House where He symbolically meets His Servants and True Believers.

The Kaaba makes the millions of Muslims all over the world Pray to Allah Almighty as one unified community.

To read more on this topic check out this link:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/que11.htm


To read more on how the Kaaba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael peace be upon them.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/building_the_kaaba.htm

 

[جوري]

If you are going to only rely on Muslim sources for your beliefs, then you will surely have no objection and find it completely consistent that Christians do not rely on the non-Christian sources that Muslims use to try to denegrate Christianity.

we rely on logic first and foremost.. BTW still waiting for those christian sources where Jesus professes his birth on the 25th and gives you the OK to celebrate it, plus dispels the myth that it is pagan in origin!

all the best

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

The Bible forbade making images of GOD Almighty!

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

Today in the Churches we see the very thing that Jesus came to eradicate and that is man worshipping idols than worshipping the creator himself.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

Then worship one lord and forsake worshipping the creations of God the very thing that ALL the Prophets of God tried to forbid.

God says in the Qur'an concerning this false belief:

"And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (The Noble Quran, 5:116)"

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. (The Noble Quran, 4:171)"

So worship ONE GOD:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

Jesus was no creator, and even your very own corrupted New Testament proves it .

Need I also remind you that Jesus did not know when the Hour would come? "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)"

The truth will always prevail over falsehood and it is clear for all to see!

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Exactly my point.


All I am asking for is a non-Islamic source that says that the Kaaba was originally Muslim. If it doesn't exist then just say so.

Why would we need to prove something that is not disputed at all to you? You came with a false allegation using anti Islamic websites so prove your false allegations using Islamic sources. If you can't then why have you dug yourself into a hole that you can't get out of? Next time if you start something then make sure you can also finish it to.

You have already made your intentions for being in this forum very clear for all to see. You have stated that it is only Muslims that believe the Kaba to be originally Muslim. That is because our sources prove it without doubt but the fact that you clearly ignore what Islam says about a matter proves that you are not here to learn the Islamic position on anything but that you will continue to blindly refer to anti Islamic websites regardless. You have just proved your purpose of being here for all to see.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

The fact is Christian scholars do NOT dispute the fact that Christmas including everything related to it originate from Paganism. NO where in the Bible does Jesus say when his birthdate is and he NEVER stated anywhere to actually celebrate his birth in the first place. So like most aspects of Christianity Christmas was created a long time after the death of Jesus (Peace be upon him).

Christianity hijacked Pagan festivals and rituals:Whose Christmas is it anyway?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/for_christmas/_new_year/pagan_christmas/37276.stm

Therefore it is clear that Christmas has NOTHING at all to do with Christianity or the birth of Jesus but it has been established through hijacking pagan events and rituals and is now a commercial event.

This thread has now run its course and is therefore closed.