Unity of muslim nation is deemed necessary now.

[GuestFellow]

I don't remember saying, or anyone else for that matter, that an Islamic state would cause instability.

Sorry I got confused.

 

[ChargerCarl]

No worries

 

[Watcher888]

Your writing/garbage is telling of your person!

Then why all this advocacy for the good the 'yanks' have brought to Iraq or elsewhere?


You seem desperate to rectify all the crap you spew on various threads by extricating yourself from it.. we call that hypocrisy!

Muslims can do as they please in their sovereign nations. You need to busy yourself with your own affairs!

What issues you twit?


have a good one!

You have completely misunderstood my meaning!
I do not, and would not advocate for the yanks!
I clearly implied, that even before the yanks went in, that Iraq was an unstable mess, with various factions vying for power!
This 'powder keg' was brutally kept from going off, by the 'bathist's' regime!

And I said of myself:

You don't even know me, to be able to make such wild claims!
I don not support any government of the world!
I do not support any army of the world!
I do not support any war of the world!
Nothing in this world or this life represents me!
And I do not watch fox!

Muslims can do as they please in their sovereign nations. You need to busy yourself with your own affairs!

So muslims can be 'despots' and mistreat other muslims can they?
I find that shocking and puzzling!

What issues you twit?

Face up to what is done in the name of islam, by those who call themselves muslims!

I guess your rhetoric is aimed at deflecting the issues hey!

 

[Thucydides1987]

Trust me, the Caliphates job is to bring the unity of the Muslims back together again, thats why most Muslims want one.

But that 'unity' of which you speak hardly existed in history -- it's nothing more than a romanticised version of Islamic history.

 

[جوري]

You have completely misunderstood my meaning!
I do not, and would not advocate for the yanks!
I clearly implied, that even before the yanks went in, that Iraq was an unstable mess, with various factions vying for power!
This 'powder keg' was brutally kept from going off, by the 'bathist's' regime!

And I said of myself:

That is alot of concocted bull .. no one was vying for power, people there have lived harmoniously for ages side by side.. do you know anything at all about Iraq? Have you ever been? if you haven't then shut your ignorant bazoo or go share it on the christo fundie forum, idiots there would lap it up and hail you as their king.. what is curious though, since the ''yanks'' presence there not only have things been hellish, but there is also that mysterious disappearance of Iraqi scientists and intellectuals, which the yanks have made sure they take out along with the treasures of ancient Babylon:

Who’s killing Iraqi intellectuals?

By David Hoskins
Published Dec 3, 2005 9:29 PM
Iraqis opposed to the U.S. occupation believe there is a systematic campaign of targeted assassinations aimed at Iraqi intellectuals and that a well-organized enemy intent on keeping Iraq weak and susceptible to foreign occupation is carrying out the killings.
The Monitoring Net for Human Rights in Iraq recently reported Iraqi police figures demonstrating that well over 1,000 Iraqi academics and scientists have been shot to death since the beginning of the U.S.-led invasion. The U.S. State Depart ment has confirmed that hundreds of university professors have been killed.
The shooting of peaceful academics clearly differentiates these killings from those attributable to the Iraqi resistance’s effort to defend its homeland. The popular insurgency has primarily targeted U.S. and British forces along with Iraqi military and police personnel who cooperate with the occupation.
Whoever is responsible for the assassination of academics must also have access to sophisticated intelligence techniques that allow for the widespread targeting of a particular grouping of civilians.
The attacks on Iraqi intellectuals first began when U.S. forces purged at least 15,500 researchers, scientists, teachers and professors for alleged ties to the Baath Party. The dismissal, and subsequent emigration, of so many leading professionals contributed to a destabilized Iraq and provided the occupiers with an excuse for staying in the country.
An article in the [London] Times Higher Education Supplement (Sept. 15, 2004) points out that “there is a widespread feeling among the Iraqi academics that they are witnessing a deliberate attempt to destroy intellectual life in Iraq.”
The cold-blooded nature of the assassinations leaves many wondering exactly who is responsible for this ongoing campaign. The Iraqi resistance denies it is responsible, and those interested in liberating Iraq from the occupation have no motive to carry out such wide-scale killings.
Osama Abed Al-Majeed, the president of the Department for Research and Development at the Iraqi Ministry for Higher Education, has accused the Israeli secret service, Mossad, of perpetuating the violence against Iraqi scientists. A June 2005 report by the Palestine Information Center claims that Mossad, in cooperation with U.S. military forces, was responsible for the assassination of 530 Iraqi scientists and professors in the seven months prior to the report’s publication.
Mossad unquestionably has the motive and means to assassinate leading Iraqi intel lectuals. The Israeli intelligence agency contains a Special Operations Division called Metsada which is tasked with conducting assassinations, sabotage and paramilitary projects. Israel has a long history of interference in Iraq, going back to the 1981 bombing of a nuclear energy plant that stood 15 miles outside Baghdad that just before that attack had voluntarily undergone inspection by the Inter national Atomic Energy Agency.
Regardless of who is responsible for the killing of Iraqi scientists and academics, it is clear that the U.S. and Britain, as the leading occupying powers, have the responsibility for the precarious situation in which these intellectuals are forced to live.
Dr. Saad Jawad is a university professor who was known to speak out against certain Baathist policies. But he recently said, “To tell the truth, in the time of Saddam Hussein, we used to speak to our students freely.… But now, a lot of people are not willing to say these kinds of things because of fear.”
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Podcast: Looting of the Iraq Museum

Wednesday, April 21

Join Dr. Donny George Youkhanna, the former director general of the Iraq National Museum in Baghdad, as he shares his unique experience and perspectives on the current archeological and museum conditions in Iraq.
Dr. Youkhanna was instrumental in the recovery of thousands of Mesopotamian artworks and artifacts looted during the U.S. invasion in 2003. He was also President of the Iraq State Board of Antiquities and Heritage. In 2006, he was forced to leave Iraq and is now a visiting professor at the State University of New York, Stony Brook.
The Looting of the Iraq Museum: An Evening with Dr. Donny George Youkhanna was recorded at the American Museum of Natural History on Feburary 24, 2010.

this one is cute:

so I really wish you'd shut your ignorant bazoo

awrence Rothfield discusses the systematic and well-organised looting at the Iraq National Museum in 2003 on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s Artworks Feature: “Looting Iraq's treasures”. Here Michael Gurr interviews Lawrence Rothfield author of The Rape of Mesopotamia on the looting of the Baghdad National Museum. The programme also contains some robust comment from Donald Rumsfeld. More than 15,000 artefacts vanished from the museum collections onto the black market, going to the dealers and buyers who are desperate to own some of the world's most ancient artefacts. And no-one, it seems, lifted a finger to stop it. Seven years on, while the Iraqis may well remember, around the world, the media has a short attention-span. This, combined with our own 'disaster fatigue', means that by now the sacking of the Baghdad Museum is pretty largely forgotten. Although the programme focussed on this, in fact looting on the archaeological sites scattered across the whole country in the aftermath of intervention aimed at destabilising the country and toppling its regime was arguably many times worse than what happened at the museum. It's estimated that perhaps 100,000 to 400,000 collectable artefacts have been ripped out of the ground, mostly between 2003 and 2006. To put that in context, the total holdings of the museum, which inventories everything excavated since 1924 until 2003 was only 170,000 items.

You can listen to the programme [here].

So muslims can be 'despots' and mistreat other muslims can they?

I find that shocking and puzzling!

what you find puzzling and shocking can fill compendiums as is usually the case with most under-educated people!

Face up to what is done in the name of islam, by those who call themselves muslims!

What is done you chawbacon is done in the name of world domination and, a few masterminds manipulating herd like yourself to believe that your 'freedom fries' and nakes w hores in 750cc prosthesis are something worth killing for!

I guess your rhetoric is aimed at deflecting the issues hey!

What issue you twit? I don't even need to make a marginal effort to showcase you for the fool that you are!

 

[Watcher888]

Fine. I was just interested to see what you have to say about that verse.

Muslims desire to spread Islam however we cannot force anyone to convert. How Islam will prevail you ask? By Muslims setting a good Islam and spreading the knowledge of Islam.

That is a refreshing viewpoint. Good to hear!

But, it must be such an impediment, when so many unpeaceful things are done in the name of islam/muslims/allah?
It must put your cause back no end!

Catch phrase?

But, I'm no expert. I will probably take it out of context like I've done in the past.
It seems to suggest a finality about it, that would last for all time!


I never said it was brotherly love. There is a problem between Sunni and Shia Muslims, however, this problem is for them to resolve.
Yes, and what would the the Prophet say?

If the West intervene, they should get involved as mediators.
Surprised that you would allow the west to get involved in an islamic issue, particularly one within the ummah!

 

[Watcher888]

That is alot of concocted bull .. no one was vying for power, people there have lived harmoniously for ages side by side.. do you know anything at all about Iraq? Have you ever been? if you haven't then shut your ignorant bazoo or go share it on the christo fundie forum, idiots there would lap it up and hail you as their king.. what is curious though, since the ''yanks'' presence there not only have things been hellish, but there is also that mysterious disappearance of Iraqi scientists and intellectuals, which the yanks have made sure they take out along with the treasures of ancient Babylon:



this one is cute:



so I really wish you'd shut your ignorant bazoo

what you find puzzling and shocking can fill compendiums as is usually the case with most under-educated people!

What is done you chawbacon is done in the name of world domination and, a few masterminds manipulating herd like yourself to believe that your 'freedom fries' and nakes w hores in 750cc prosthesis are something worth killing for!

What issue you twit? I don't even need to make a marginal effort to showcase you for the fool that you are!

In Iraq, the Ba'ath party remained a civilian group and lacked strong support within the military. The party had little impact, and the movement split into several factions after 1958 and again in 1966. The movement was reported to have lacked strong popular support, but through the construction of a strong party apparatus the party succeeded in gaining power.
The Ba'athists first came to power in the coup of February 1963, when Abd al-Salam 'Arif became president. Interference from the historic leadership around Aflaq and disputes between the moderates and extremists, culminating in an attempted coup by the latter in November 1963, served to discredit the party. After Arif’s takeover in November 1963, the moderate military Ba'athist officers initially retained some influence but were gradually eased out of power over the following months.
In July 1968, a bloodless coup led by General Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr, Saddam Hussein and Salah Omar Al-Ali brought the Ba'ath Party back to power. In 1974 the Iraqi Ba'athists formed the National Progressive Front to broaden support for the government's initiatives. Wranglings within the party continued, and the government periodically purged its dissident members. Emerging as a party strongman, Hussein eventually used his growing power to push al-Bakr aside in 1979 and ruled Iraq until 2003. Under Saddam's tenure Iraq experienced its most dramatic and successful period of economic growth, with its citizens enjoying standards of health care, housing, instruction and salaries/stipends well comparable to those of European countries. Several major infrastructures were laid down to help with the country's growth, although many had to be scaled down or abandoned as the costs of the Iran-Iraq War became heavier and heavier.

Author Fred Halliday writes about 1958-1979: Arab Nationalism confronting Imperial Iran, Ba'thist ideology, where, under the influence of al-Husri, Iran was presented as the age-old enemy of the Arabs. Al-Husri's impact on the Iraqi education system was made during the period of the monarchy, but it was the Ba'thists, trained in that period and destined to take power later, who brought his ideas to their full, official and racist, culmination. For the Ba'thists their pan-Arab ideology was laced with anti-Persian racism, it rested on the pursuit of anti-Persian themes, over the decade and a half after coming to power, Baghdad organised the expulsion of Iraqis of Persian origin, beginning with 40,000 Fayli Kurds, but totalling up to 200,000 or more, by the early years of the war itself. Such racist policies were reinforced by ideology: in 1981, a year after the start of the Iran-Iraq war, Dar al-Hurriya, the government publishing house, issued "Three Whom God Should Not Have Created: Persians, Jews, and Flies". by the author, Khairallah Talfah (Tulfah), the foster-father and father-in-law of Saddam Hussein. Halliday says that it was the Ba'thists too who, claiming to be the defenders of 'Arabism' on the eastern frontiers, brought to the fore the chauvinist myth of Persian migrants and communities in the Gulf.

 

[جوري]

In Iraq, the Ba'ath party remained a civilian group and lacked strong support within the military.

what is the point of regurgitating the same crap over you? I have already established and repeatedly that whatever problems Iraq is having should be solved by Iraqis it is certainly not a carte Blanche for you and yours to come killing, maiming and stealing.. to make the analogy so simple that even you can understand.. If I had a fight with my cousin and it got heated, what right have you a complete outsider to come in, not only killing my cousin, but other family members, posing some of them nude, torturing some, mocking the children of my village and then looting the goods and claiming that you were only trying to help-- are you this imbecilic?

Now, Please take a hike I have zero tolerance for simpletons!

 

[GuestFellow]

Yes, and what would the the Prophet say?

That Muslims should unite and not divide. Stick to the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Surprised that you would allow the west to get involved in an islamic issue, particularly one within the ummah!

Nothing wrong with a country playing a role as a mediator, giving advice to both sides and helping them to find some common ground. Of course, when a conflict arises, other countries national interests are affected, so they are allowed to get involved, as long as they do it diplomatically. So by involvement, I mean diplomacy.

That is a refreshing viewpoint. Good to hear!

But, it must be such an impediment, when so many unpeaceful things are done in the name of islam/muslims/allah?

It must put your cause back no end!

Well yes some Muslims have done bad things. It does not mean it represents Islam. When a problem arises, some people resort to violence and try to justify it by whatever means.

 

[Watcher888]

what is the point of regurgitating the same crap over you? I have already established and repeatedly that whatever problems Iraq is having should be solved by Iraqis it is certainly not a carte Blanche for you and yours to come killing, maiming and stealing.. to make the analogy so simple that even you can understand.. If I had a fight with my cousin and it got heated, what right have you a complete outsider to come in, not only killing my cousin, but other family members, posing some of them nude, torturing some, mocking the children of my village and then looting the goods and claiming that you were only trying to help-- are you this imbecilic?

Now, Please take a hike I have zero tolerance for simpletons!

I see you can't admit you have got me wrong hey!
I do not support the yanks in anything!
And my restating and clarifying my point is no 'regurgitation'!
Iraq is a mess now, and will still be if and when the yanks clear off!
And my point still is, that Iraq under saddam was a mess!
Which you have now sort of conceded!

I have no tolerance for untruth!
saddam murdered 1,000's of muslims!
Surely that is against the Prophet's teachings!

 

[M.I.A.]

I see you can't admit you have got me wrong hey!
I do not support the yanks in anything!
And my restating and clarifying my point is no 'regurgitation'!
Iraq is a mess now, and will still be if and when the yanks clear off!
And my point still is, that Iraq under saddam was a mess!
Which you have now sort of conceded!

I have no tolerance for untruth!
saddam murdered 1,000's of muslims!
Surely that is against the Prophet's teachings!

when you look at the state of pakistan and its people, a muslim nation founded as such, then you know the state of the muslim ummah across the world.
not painting everyone with the same brush although if i did its not the brush i would like to use.

 

[aadil77]

But that 'unity' of which you speak hardly existed in history -- it's nothing more than a romanticised version of Islamic history.

what do you mean by 'hardly existed'? were you there at time? enlighten us please

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

But that 'unity' of which you speak hardly existed in history -- it's nothing more than a romanticised version of Islamic history.

whats the matter? been stung by the jealousy bug?

 

[TheRationalizer]

I used to work for a friend in the US. His business partner used to work for one of the security services (installing covert surveillance equipment I think it was.)

When the US was rattling it's sabre at Afghanistan he told me that Saddam was threatening to demand Euros for his oil. He told me that most countries in the region treat US Dollars as a second currency simply because it was the currency in which oil is bought and sold. If oil instead was bought and sold in Euros it would result in these countries dropping the USD and adopting the EUR has their secondary currencies - effectively smashing the illusion of the perceived value of the USD (which is no longer tie to gold reserves.)

He told me that the US *would* invade Iraq, and rather than do this to get cheap oil they would do it in order to ensure they could buy it in USD. He told me that once the US were finished with Afghanistan they would go into Iraq and Iran. I couldn't see any chance of the US going to war with both of these countries, especially Iran, but it seems he was right.

Personally I am looking forward to oil running out

 

[جوري]

When the US was rattling it's sabre at Afghanistan he told me that Saddam was threatening to demand Euros for his oi

Your friend is correct!
once the oil runs out, there will be another reason to be there.. I have to big a headache now to go into a laundry list of it!

 

[جوري]

And my point still is, that Iraq under saddam was a mess! Which you have now sort of conceded! I have no tolerance for untruth! saddam murdered 1,000's of muslims! Surely that is against the Prophet's teachings!

and as I quoted before and the Iraqis themselves stated. Better to suffer of fever than die of it.. You are incredibly thick and I have to maddening a migraine today to spoon feed you common sense!

 

[GuestFellow]

Personally I am looking forward to oil running out

I've heard oil companies are investing in alternative energy. Not sure if it is true...

once the oil runs out, there will be another reason to be there.. I have to big a headache now to go into a laundry list of it!

As long as Israel continues to receive aid and the necon dominate US foreign policy, the US will always get involved in the Middle East.

 

[TheRationalizer]

I've heard oil companies are investing in alternative energy. Not sure if it is true...

It is, they have massive budgets. Any "oil" company that does not diverge to simply become an "energy company" will die out with the oil. They know this, and that is why they invest in alternate energy sources such as hydrogen fuel cells etc.

As long as Israel continues to receive aid and the necon dominate US foreign policy, the US will always get involved in the Middle East.

Most countries will have some interest in the other countries in the world. I don't expect the US will have as many shall we say "active campaigns" in middle-eastern countries because once the natural resources are gone they will be of less interest. Although I expect the US will try to keep military stations in as many countries as they possibly can because they are strategically useful in their active campaigns elsewhere.

 

[M.I.A.]

It is, they have massive budgets. Any "oil" company that does not diverge to simply become an "energy company" will die out with the oil. They know this, and that is why they invest in alternate energy sources such as hydrogen fuel cells etc.




Most countries will have some interest in the other countries in the world. I don't expect the US will have as many shall we say "active campaigns" in middle-eastern countries because once the natural resources are gone they will be of less interest. Although I expect the US will try to keep military stations in as many countries as they possibly can because they are strategically useful in their active campaigns elsewhere.

the damage has been done, greed for oil or stability was just the carrot on the stick.

 

[TheRationalizer]

the damage has been done, greed for oil or stability was just the carrot on the stick.

I didn't say it would then be irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that this is all to do with natural resources and wealth rather than (as many conspiracy hypothesisers claim) about religion.