Hate for the Pagan

[IAmZamzam]

My own point remains. (You didn't even try to come up with a real refutation of it, you just retorted with the usual "no outsider to anything can judge it" malarkey.) Devotion to multiple subsets of the same group is never as sincere for a human being as devotion to only one thing, and no kind of polytheism I've ever heard of can really deny through and through that there is a singular entity above all others and/or which created all the other "gods" or oversees them in some way, in which case why not just devote yourself to that one and forget about the rest? It doesn't make any sense. Of course my recognizance of that doesn't automatically amount to hate for pagans. I'm against voting too but most people are voters and don't seem to be as foolish or gullible about the majority of other things in life as they are about putting their trust in politicians: although the thought of men supporting demons still sickens me, the voters themselves usually seem to be merely misguided and not detestable, or at the very least not detestable for that particular reason. Really, there are any number of situations like that in life for most people. It's not like just because we don't approve of a practice it follows as a natural corollary that we're going to hate the practitioner.

 

[جوري]

Yes, he did; read the series of replies we made to one another, where he mentions it with some detail. I'm not suspicious of him that I'd need to go research this concept for myself, I take his word for it, for he is a civil person unlike you.

It doesn't matter what he says of the word tawheed, many people are misinformed.. you take misinformation and mold it to disseminate more silliness? That is an amazing testament to who you are and what you're capable or rather incapable of, independent thought and thorough research are elusive to you and I think you're indeed a prototype for a typical uneducated atheist who simply spews things to fit into a particular crowd where the notion of intellect and independent thought is rumored but not practiced-- how do you reconcile that with your quote there? for you are indeed a slave to opinions and kid gloves is all you seek.
Hope saving face is more important to you than your credibility!

all the best

 

[Thucydides1987]

Devotion to multiple subsets of the same group is never as sincere for a human being as devotion to only one thing

You've made no explanation of this statement. How could I take it seriously if you keep repeating it over and over again? How is it more "sincere" a devotion??

no kind of polytheism I've ever heard of can really deny through and through that there is a singular entity above all others and/or which created all the other "gods" or oversees them in some way, in which case why not just devote yourself to that one and forget about the rest? It doesn't make any sense.

Well, clearly you don't seem to understand what the pagan experience is; nor do you seem at all interested. Of course it won't make any sense to you if you approach this religion through monotheistic preconceptions about worship, a God, and doctrine.

 

[Thucydides1987]

doesn't matter what he says of the word tawheed, many people are misinformed..

Well then inform him of his error (if you truly believe it to be so), and correct him. I'm not writing a phd dissertation on this so I'm happy to take the word of Muslims on this forum about their own faith, rather than spending hours reading books on Islam. If you have such a problem with misinformation, deal with its source -- which is not me, I am the recipient of the information. You just like me cause i'm an atheist, isn't it so

 

[جوري]

Well then inform him of his error (if you truly believe it to be so), and correct him. I'm not writing a phd dissertation on this so I'm happy to take the word of Muslims on this forum about their own faith, rather than spending hours reading books on Islam. If you have such a problem with misinformation, deal with its source -- which is not me, I am the recipient of the information. You just like me cause i'm an atheist, isn't it so

If he made an error, which I havn't seen simply because I haven't read all the codswallop that is dispensed here, what is your excuse? rather what is your excuse on every thread, such as we've seen here do you want to make marginal effort before yapping your bazoo on ANY thread? Don't get me wrong, I think people here already take what you write with a little less than a grain of salt. But what is your purpose writing if you can't establish credibility.. Are you simply socializing? or do you want to waste your time and ours?

This isn't a social forum, other people frequent it as well, the least you can do to represent your clan is utter a word of truth, if you want to bring the quota down for the whole country, then do it on an atheist forum, ignorance is acceptable there so long as you wear the label!

all the best

 

[siam]

@ Thucydides

My apologies....I think I did not explain the term Tawheed properly.

Tawheed(Unity)= God is One, Unique, Genderless, Indivisible, Infinite, Independent, yet, all Creation (and all creation is finite) is dependent upon him, he is independent of his creation......

From Tawheed springs all the other concepts in Islam----for example, all men and women are inherently equal because we are all equally dependent upon God and are equally his creation. Therefore, an individual or group are not inherently created superior to another. This carries over to justice, governance etc---for example, everyone is equal under the law, no person or group has special privilege because of wealth or status. In Governance---a leader, Monarch, or Caliph is not inherently superior to his subjects, rather is in the position of leadership as a representative of the people.....and so on.....This creates a core difference in the mindset/worldview---as you yourself explained in the previous post---between polytheists and Tawheed. The polytheist "brotherhood" is based on tolerance of "another" who is substantially different from the "in-group". That is, "they" have a different creater god who takes care of their needs. Tolerance need not acknowledge equality of the "other". This type of worldview cannot transcend the ego and accept that all human beings are equally brothers and sisters of each other and have God-given rights, liberties, and responsibilities the same as all other brothers and sisters---that we are all equally dependent upon the compassion and mercy of the ONE God who created us all. The polytheists lack this core vision and this limits the benefits of their religion to humanity.

That does not mean we monotheists have succeeded in implementing this vision either...as I said, our egos are still strong-----the difference is that this core vision exits in monotheism and is therefore a goal one can strive towards. The purpose of such a vision is to create "Unity" (One God) so that all of us in our different capacities acknowledge that we serve the ONE God and strive to do his will---which is to have right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Society, shmociety. Once again you are more concerned with what ill effects a belief may have (in your own ignorant and prejudiced mind) than whether it is sincere or even true.

The Gods that people create or adopt and that they choose to worship says a lot about the mindsets of those people, so yes, absolutely, I am very concerned with the beliefs people create or adopt and the effects of these beliefs. Just as I am concerned with the effects that racist beliefs have on people, I am concerned with the effects that some religious beliefs have on people. It isn't enough that the beliefs are not true. That people hold them has effects that we should be concerned with.

 

[siam]

"Devotion to multiple subsets of the same group is never as sincere for a human being as devotion to only one thing"

I am probably taking what Yahya said out of context, because I havn't read his previous posts....but as a Muslim on some Catholic boards, I have experienced this type of insincere "tolerance" that was laced with contempt for the other. (---The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that Muslims worship the same God and are included in the plan of salvation (whatever that means))

 

[IAmZamzam]

You've made no explanation of this statement. How could I take it seriously if you keep repeating it over and over again? How is it more "sincere" a devotion??

It's a very common element of human experience that trying to devote yourself to two contradictory causes is less plausible, and harder to be sincere about, than devoting yourself to only one of them. Don't you see it all over the place? Would you be denying it, or acting nearly as confused, if we weren't talking about religious devotion specifically?

Well, clearly you don't seem to understand what the pagan experience is; nor do you seem at all interested. Of course it won't make any sense to you if you approach this religion through monotheistic preconceptions about worship, a God, and doctrine.

Again, how if I said, "Of course theism won't make any sense to you if you approach it through atheistic preconceptions?" Has it occurred to you that maybe I formed my bias toward monotheism because of the reasons why I find polytheism unacceptable, and not the other way around? Can't you come up with a single actual argument against what I'm saying, instead of the mindset you're jumping to the conclusion that I'm saying it out of?

 

[جوري]

It does when she has done it so long and so pointlessly that we have come to ignore whatever text appears beside her name.

Glad to see you've finally bonded with a 'Muslim' and after a half a decade.. a shame that your seething aversion is all that came out of it 'talk about a tribal isolationist'.. I have reported your diatribe and if you had something of substance to impart (ever) and weren't so desperate not to have your posts deleted for being little more than just that diatribe then perhaps you'd make use of the report a post feature? Wanting someone to know you are ignoring them by pointing it out and repeatedly sort of defeats the purpose!

all the best

 

[IAmZamzam]

"Devotion to multiple subsets of the same group is never as sincere for a human being as devotion to only one thing"

I am probably taking what Yahya said out of context, because I havn't read his previous posts....but as a Muslim on some Catholic boards, I have experienced this type of insincere "tolerance" that was laced with contempt for the other. (---The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that Muslims worship the same God and are included in the plan of salvation (whatever that means))

I don't know if you're taking me out of context or not but if I follow you (and maybe I don't) you haven't comprehended by point.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Pygoscelis, if you gave one whit of greater priority to fact than to psychological presumptions about the people who hold to particular views about what is or isn't factual, you will have learned more from that one experience than you're likely to otherwise in the course of an entire decade. You keep ignorantly slinging the term "ad hominem" around at others and yet you're the one who proudly proclaims practically every post that one must focus at least as much on the people who believe something as whether they're right to believe it. True ad hominem, as opposed to the inaccurate sense in which you and virtually everyone else who ever uses the term means it, is the very essence of apparently your entire worldview about everything.

By the way, speaking of terms you overuse and misuse, if you utter the word "tribalism" one more time then God willing I will come to ignore whatever text appears beside your name. lily isn't the only one who hates it when you do that.

 

[Thucydides1987]

It's a very common element of human experience that trying to devote yourself to two contradictory causes is less plausible, and harder to be sincere about

What do you mean by a devotion to "contradictory causes"? Is this supposed to be a reference to the worship of more than one deity in paganism? If so, why is the devotion to say, Zeus and Apollo "contradictory"?

Has it occurred to you that maybe I formed my bias toward monotheism because of the reasons why I find polytheism unacceptable,

It's one thing to have a bias that is established from being well-informed about something, but it is something else when you have a bias against a matter out of a total lack of understanding of it. I'm sorry to hurt you by saying what I have said, but you have not shown to me that you understand paganism; thus far, your understanding of paganism is the common view preached by monotheism, which by nature has maligned, and has thrived on the malignancy of, pagan worship throughout its history.

 

[M.I.A.]

What do you mean by a devotion to "contradictory causes"? Is this supposed to be a reference to the worship of more than one deity in paganism? If so, why is the devotion to say, Zeus and Apollo "contradictory"?



It's one thing to have a bias that is established from being well-informed about something, but it is something else when you have a bias against a matter out of a total lack of understanding of it. I'm sorry to hurt you by saying what I have said, but you have not shown to me that you understand paganism; thus far, your understanding of paganism is the common view preached by monotheism, which by nature has maligned, and has thrived on the malignancy of, pagan worship throughout its history.

everytime i see zeus and apollo they are in the form of men(on tv of course), im completely ignorant of if that is how they were represented a long long time ago.

also has anybody seen "the warriors"

well thats lightened the mood a bit, see you again.

 

[siam]

@Yahya
"you haven't comprehended by point. "

In that case, my apologies for incorrectly quoting you.......I shouldn't have since I hadn't read all of your posts........

 

[Thucydides1987]

@ Thucydides

My apologies....I think I did not explain the term Tawheed properly.

Tawheed(Unity)= God is One, Unique, Genderless, Indivisible, Infinite, Independent, yet, all Creation (and all creation is finite) is dependent upon him, he is independent of his creation......

The polytheist "brotherhood" is based on tolerance of "another" who is substantially different from the "in-group". That is, "they" have a different creater god who takes care of their needs. Tolerance need not acknowledge equality of the "other".

I feel like you're comparing the concept of tolerance in a pagan society to the idea of tolerance in modern multicultural theory -- this is not quite correct. All people in a pagan society believed in and revered/respected all the gods of that society.

With regard to what you said about "different creator god" in paganism: it wasn't the case where it was clearly stated which god belonged to which people -- we rarely have historical evidence of this. Even when you do have a specific god who created a certain people, you never see that particular god being exclusively worshipped by those people who are said to have been created by him -- he is still worshipped by all members of the polytheistic community. For example, the Egyptian goddess Isis was worshipped in Rome and all over Roman Europe, regardless of her being Egyptian in origin.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Thucydides, believe me when I say that it would take a lot better than you seem to be able to dish out to hurt me.

"All people in in a pagan society believed in and revered/respected all the gods of that society." As I've been telling you, that is precisely the problem! Zeus and Apollo are different deities and the nature of worship demands that one place the object of worship higher than anything else lest you could barely call it worship at all. Devotion of any kind is like that (as everyone knows from constant everyday secular issues), but worship most especially. I'm very sorry if disagreeing with you automatically makes me a typical ignorant schlob, but even you don't seem to be able to deny the logic that if there is always a single highest god, original creator, etc., then not to worship that one god alone is foolish and pointless. Instead, you just prattle about cultures and societies and communities as if they had anything to do with it.

 

[Hossam Al-Deen]

Muslims believe that God has sent a prophet to every nation - so "paganism" or poytheism of any kind is a corruption of the messege of one God. How do you know the Greeks never had an idea of one God?

Just to add to your argument, Plato and Aristotle did believe in the one God through deep contemplation and long periods of reflecting about life, existence, and the "nature of things." They rejected the false mythologies that the majority of society believed in as far as I can remember.

 

[Ramadhan]

The Gods that people create or adopt and that they choose to worship says a lot about the mindsets of those people, so yes, absolutely, I am very concerned with the beliefs people create or adopt and the effects of these beliefs. Just as I am concerned with the effects that racist beliefs have on people, I am concerned with the effects that some religious beliefs have on people. It isn't enough that the beliefs are not true. That people hold them has effects that we should be concerned with.

If that is your position, then not only should yo be concerned but shouldn't you also be totally against atheism, seeing the effect of atheism on people like pol pot, stalin, mao, and their friends?

but of course you would say they were not real atheists, just like christians would also deny that hitler, rwandan priests and nuns, digusting popes, paedophile priests and pastors, european kings, evil evangelists, george bush etc were also not real christians.

LOL.

 

[siam]

@ Thucydides
"I feel like you're comparing the concept of tolerance in a pagan society to the idea of tolerance in modern multicultural theory"----interesting point---hadn't thought about it this way.....

Both of us are making speculations about Pagans from what we understand. I am looking/speculating at it from what (little) I understand of the Pre-Islamic world. For example, The Christians called God "Allah" which is Arabic for God, the Pagan Arabs called their God "Allah" also. Therefore, should one assume that both the Christians and Pagans felt they were worshipping the same God? The Pagan Allah(God) had daughters, for some Christians Allah(God) had a son.

It is interesting that when Islam came, the Arabic name for God---Allah is retained instead of using a completely different name/label. What changed isn't the name but the concept of God---embodied in the Tawheed. Why?---it would have been easier to simply put a "new" name to a "new" concept to distinguish it from other concepts. ----but that is the whole point. Tawheed isn't division---it is UNITY.
(This "UNITY" is also not "new" ---it isn't something man thought up in the 7th century----It has been God's will since the start of humanity. However, ego/division keeps getting in the way. Judaism also has some similar ideas in the "Shema" and the Talmud Sanhedrin though not as fully expressed as the Tawheed.)

Its OK if you don't understand it. Sometimes some things are just difficult to explain---and I am probably not communicating well....maybe someone else can explain it better than I can?

anyway, this is the way i see it.........