Hey Agnostics & Atheists: Do you ever worry?

[Lynx]

@Pygo

Also, consider if you would WANT to bow down to or spend eternity in heaven with a God who would do such a thing as judge you on your obedience to him instead of your kindness or good works.

Honestly, as morally repugnant as it may seem, if God turned out to be like how Muslims and Christians claim then I am all for obedience, especially if the alternative was eternal hell-fire Lol. Self-preservation !

@Zafran

ofcourse beliefs are important they are the foundations for any moral actions - If your beliefs are not sound then your actions are not going to be as well

I agree with everything you said but can you please explain how this is relevant to anything I said ? Beliefs are important, sure; but they are not moral actions. If a person is able to 'see' Islam as the right religion, then good for him; how does that qualify him to go heaven? Similarly, if a person sees Agnosticism as the most reasonable belief then how does that qualify him to go to hell? Religious people always make it seem like to believe in God is akin to doing some morally good action but can't seem to explain how a belief is any sort of action at all... I believe God is smart enough to realize this and if he decided to create heaven and hell then the respective criteria for entry must be a little more umm RELEVANT to someone's actions, choices and characteristics.

 

[Trumble]

Thankfully your parents did not give you life, did not give you air to breath, did not give you sustenance, did not protect you from danger every single day, did not give you intelligence for you to use to deny them....

No, but they do/did exist to do an awful lot for me (and in later years vice versa), which is more than can be said for God. A fantasy might provide psychological comfort, but it can provide nothing else. Of course, that's a totally atheistic perspective, but the original question was asked of atheists. Yet again, I fail to understand why so many theists fail to grasp that atheists do not 'deny' God.. if they did that they would not be atheists. They simply do not believe God exists as a real entity as opposed to a human construction.

atheists are very tribal in their primitivism and crudity of course the more 'liberated' you're from religion, the more animal like you become!

Atheists' dealings with their parents are no different from anybody else's.

I don't know what's happened to you lately. In recent months you haven't made a single informative or otherwise positive post; every one is just a usually unjustified and frequently ad hominem snipe at other posters either individually or collectively. :hmm:

 

[M.I.A.]

@Pygo


Honestly, as morally repugnant as it may seem, if God turned out to be like how Muslims and Christians claim then I am all for obedience, especially if the alternative was eternal hell-fire Lol. Self-preservation !

@Zafran


I agree with everything you said but can you please explain how this is relevant to anything I said ? Beliefs are important, sure; but they are not moral actions. If a person is able to 'see' Islam as the right religion, then good for him; how does that qualify him to go heaven? Similarly, if a person sees Agnosticism as the most reasonable belief then how does that qualify him to go to hell? Religious people always make it seem like to believe in God is akin to doing some morally good action but can't seem to explain how a belief is any sort of action at all... I believe God is smart enough to realize this and if he decided to create heaven and hell then the respective criteria for entry must be a little more umm RELEVANT to someone's actions, choices and characteristics.

i think belief does equate to action, if they are moral or not is something we have to wait and see. an external judgement to supercede our own judgement.

the brain is really deceptive, if you ever are unlucky enough to remove that deception than what you would see is any level of hell or heaven you want.. at this point... belief equates to moral action OR not.

as for me, i try my hardest not to take advantage of any situation... i can understand what this implies for self preservation as well as i can understand this world, its people and its workings.

i still believe in my god and the day of judgement will be the only day it is proven, a few short days in hell may be the perfect training lol

 

[Zafran]

@Pygo

@Zafran


I agree with everything you said but can you please explain how this is relevant to anything I said ? Beliefs are important, sure; but they are not moral actions. If a person is able to 'see' Islam as the right religion, then good for him; how does that qualify him to go heaven? Similarly, if a person sees Agnosticism as the most reasonable belief then how does that qualify him to go to hell? Religious people always make it seem like to believe in God is akin to doing some morally good action but can't seem to explain how a belief is any sort of action at all... I believe God is smart enough to realize this and if he decided to create heaven and hell then the respective criteria for entry must be a little more umm RELEVANT to someone's actions, choices and characteristics.

If a person is agnostic then his or her deeds are ultimatly for this life and have no bearing in the next - If he does a good deed or action they will have some worldly reason but have nothing to do with an after life - the Hadith I quoted shows that clearly.

This is the main difference between the religious people (atleast the Abrahamic faiths) and the non religious - the belief in the afterlife and how serious people take it.

Al Ghazzali talks alot about this in a religious context and how we have to keep our intentions pure and remembering the afterlife in his "revival of the religious sciences"

Ultimatley your actions are what you intend them to be - thats how they will be Judged.

 

[جوري]

I don't know what's happened to you lately. In recent months you haven't made a single informative or otherwise positive post; every one is just a usually unjustified and frequently ad hominem snipe at other posters either individually or collectively.

sorry.. it wasn't directed at you anyway..

peace

 

[Lynx]

If a person is agnostic then his or her deeds are ultimatly for this life and have no bearing in the next - If he does a good deed or action they will have some worldly reason but have nothing to do with an after life - the Hadith I quoted shows that clearly.

This is the main difference between the religious people (atleast the Abrahamic faiths) and the non religious - the belief in the afterlife and how serious people take it.

Al Ghazzali talks alot about this in a religious context and how we have to keep our intentions pure and remembering the afterlife in his "revival of the religious sciences"

Ultimatley your actions are what you intend them to be - thats how they will be Judged.

sorry i don't quite see the relationship between what you're saying and my claim that beliefs are not moral actions. sure our intention guide our actions...so what?

as a side, i think if an atheist is doing something good for the sake of his belief that his action is good then he's morally superior to a theist who does good for the sake of an afterlife reward.

 

[Zafran]

sorry i don't quite see the relationship between what you're saying and my claim that beliefs are not moral actions. sure our intention guide our actions...so what?

as a side, i think if an atheist is doing something good for the sake of his belief that his action is good then he's morally superior to a theist who does good for the sake of an afterlife reward.

Afterlife in meeting God. I never said about reward - nobody worships the reward.

You dont seem to get the point of doing an action for the world and doing an action in the name of God who humans will meet in the afterlife.

The big difference between an athiest/agnostic and believer.

Our actions ARE what we intend them to be. Thats how God will judge them.

what you gave me is a wordly action that you think is moral in a world that wont last long.

 

[IAmZamzam]

The only actions that matter, the only things God grades us on in this test, are intentions or efforts. Therefore, as the sunnah says, there will be people whose actions are ostensibly Islamic--even martyrs--who will rightly be d-a-m-n-e-d (please let us type that word already; this is a religious forum). It is a simple and obvious corollary that the converse will also be true. How often disbelief in God ever turns out to be excusable is a separate issue altogether and most of what I see is not encouraging, just the result of closed-minded refusal to accept the existence of anything immaterial or unprovable or unscientific; or else misdirected hostility against religion (usually as some tool for controlling the masses, as if that would automatically negate the truth of religion even if it were the case) masquerading as a logical argument against theism itself. Sometimes it seems to be only a refusal to accept the existence of God if His motives are the least bit inscrutable or unclear to you--as if one could protest a nonexistent entity. But it would be very unrealistic to expect there never to be any atheists who are just honestly mistaken due to innocent flawed reasoning. It can happen to anyone. Incorrectness is not a sin, folks (and if you don't believe me, look at surah 2, verse 286).

 

[Lynx]

Afterlife in meeting God. I never said about reward - nobody worships the reward.

You dont seem to get the point of doing an action for the world and doing an action in the name of God who humans will meet in the afterlife.

The big difference between an athiest/agnostic and believer.

Our actions ARE what we intend them to be. Thats how God will judge them.

what you gave me is a wordly action that you think is moral in a world that wont last long.

OH okay. So if Bob feeds the poor then he's judged on why he fed the poor, right? So if he fed the poor for the sake of Allah then he's done something worthy of heaven (for example) whereas if he did it for some wordy reason (like virtue-if that's wordly) then he's judged as doing something for a wordly cause and not deserving of reward (and i guess hellfire?) is that right? it seems to me the questions is unanswered; why does his belief come into play at all. your response seems to presuppose that believing in God is a good thing hence actions with god as their intention are better than without.

 

[جوري]

OH okay. So if Bob feeds the poor then he's judged on why he fed the poor, right? So if he fed the poor for the sake of Allah then he's done something worthy of heaven (for example) whereas if he did it for some wordy reason (like virtue-if that's wordly) then he's judged as doing something for a wordly cause and not deserving of reward (and i guess hellfire?) is that right? it seems to me the questions is unanswered; why does his belief come into play at all. your response seems to presuppose that believing in God is a good thing hence actions with god as their intention are better than without.

Bob plays the piano by ear and he is excellent at it chris went to juilliard and plays the piano he is excellent at it.. would you then be surprised when chris gets a nice paying job with the philharmonic while bob struggles for gigs at various downtrodden bars?

Olivia studies hard makes it to medical school, Sally really likes playing doctor her heart is in the right place, are we then surprised when Olivia is an assistant professor at John's Hopkins whereas Sally strikes a tent and charges premium for homemade snake oil?

It is really not a difficult thing to grasp.. except in the beginning and end judgment lies with God.. so when/if you should find yourself in that place where what you've denied all along is a reality state your grievances right there and then as to why neither your intentions nor your deeds were in the right place!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

OH okay. So if Bob feeds the poor then he's judged on why he fed the poor, right? So if he fed the poor for the sake of Allah then he's done something worthy of heaven (for example) whereas if he did it for some wordy reason (like virtue-if that's wordly) then he's judged as doing something for a wordly cause and not deserving of reward (and i guess hellfire?) is that right? it seems to me the questions is unanswered; why does his belief come into play at all. your response seems to presuppose that believing in God is a good thing hence actions with god as their intention are better than without.

If you do an action for the world your reward is in the world - whatever reason Bob is doing that action is still unclear? why is he doing the action for the temporal world? why is he doing that virtue? God will Judge at the end.

If you do an action in the name of God your reward is with God. Agian God will judge.

His belief/intention is important as God will judge actions by there intentions - if your intentions are for the world then you get what you desire from the world. Why would you think of getting something from God in the hereafter when your intentions were nothing to do with the creator of the universe?

Simple as that.

 

[Lynx]

Bob plays the piano by ear and he is excellent at it chris went to juilliard and plays the piano he is excellent at it.. would you then be surprised when chris gets a nice paying job with the philharmonic while bob struggles for gigs at various downtrodden bars?

Olivia studies hard makes it to medical school, Sally really likes playing doctor her heart is in the right place, are we then surprised when Olivia is an assistant professor at John's Hopkins whereas Sally strikes a tent and charges premium for homemade snake oil?

No we are not surprised at the outcome of the example because we know that medical school makes someone better at being a doctor than simply playing doctor all your life. What we are trying to establish is what makes a belief in God morally good when beliefs aren't actions; you've just assumed what you've set out to prove is true in the example you presented so I am afraid you've begged the question.

It is really not a difficult thing to grasp.. except in the beginning and end judgment lies with God.. so when/if you should find yourself in that place where what you've denied all along is a reality state your grievances right there and then as to why neither your intentions nor your deeds were in the right place!

all the best

Well God knows that at least some non-theists are not actively pretending God does not exist for the heck of it.

His belief/intention is important as God will judge actions by there intentions - if your intentions are for the world then you get what you desire from the world. Why would you think of getting something from God in the hereafter when your intentions were nothing to do with the creator of the universe?

So God is only concerned if the action is done in his name regardless of whether or not the person has upheld his principles? :S

Let's assume what you say is true. Why would God send people to hell for their disbelief then? Your explanation attempts to show people aren't worthy of reward, but how are they worthy of punishment ? Why doesn't God just vanish non-theists from existence once they die instead of sending them to hell? Again, the reason is because of their sole nonbelief in God but what is it about that nonbelief in God that makes someone worthy of eternal hell-fire.

 

[جوري]

No we are not surprised at the outcome of the example because we know that medical school makes someone better at being a doctor than simply playing doctor all your life. What we are trying to establish is what makes a belief in God morally good when beliefs aren't actions; you've just assumed what you've set out to prove is true in the example you presented so I am afraid you've begged the question.

we're not surprised that having a good career by going through the proper channels guarantees you a better outcome than winging through life under pretenses no matter how well intending! You can't get a job as a doctor outside of academia and you can't get into the eternal house without religion. As for what makes ones beliefs morally good, well it depends on the outcome and ultimately those are judged by the creator.

Well God knows that at least some non-theists are not actively pretending God does not exist for the heck of it.

I am not concerned with that and it doesn't bother me.. it is something that those individuals will have to answer for if there is a God.. so there is really no point in making mention of it to me or anyone else for that matter!

 

[Ramadhan]

So God is only concerned if the action is done in his name regardless of whether or not the person has upheld his principles? :S

I dont know how many times we have to explain the same thing to you (atheists, agnostics), but it has been repeatedly written in this thread alone, that both intentions and actions are important, as Allah SWT repeatedly say in the qur'an about those who will be the winners in the life after this world: "for those who believe and do good deeds"

Is that really difficult to understand, lynx?
Is that why you remain a non-muslim?

 

[جوري]

What is astonishing to me personally is why people who don't believe in the afterlife or God preoccupy themselves so much with what happens in the afterlife and with God.. does that make sense?

 

[IAmZamzam]

What is astonishing to me personally is why people who don't believe in the afterlife or God preoccupy themselves so much with what happens in the afterlife and with God.. does that make sense?

It's the age of the internet and the way the internet works is that most people never see any reason to use it for talking about anything except their hatemongering diatribes. The atheists talk about the issues they don't believe in so often because either (a) that will allow them to let off more steam from their soreheaded grudge with religion, and (b) they're trying to "talk sense" to us so they can bring us up to the top of some imaginary intellectual food chain where surprise surprise, only people who agree with their own views naturally reside. You know, civilizing the superstitious natives.

 

[جوري]

It's the age of the internet and the way the internet works is that most people never see any reason to use it for talking about anything except their hatemongering diatribes. The atheists talk about the issues they don't believe in so often because either (a) that will allow them to let off more steam from their soreheaded grudge with religion, and (b) they're trying to "talk sense" to us so they can bring us up to the top of some imaginary intellectual food chain where surprise surprise, only people who agree with their own views naturally reside. You know, civilizing the superstitious natives.

Hate to agree with you but I do!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Yes motives are key. If somebody's conception of "good" is defined as "God's will" and they do good only to please God and not for its own sake, they they are being obedient, not moral. Obedience is not morality, and the two can conflict. Abraham ready to murder his son for God is a good example. Other, non-religious, examples can be found repeatedly throughout human history.

we're not surprised that having a good career by going through the proper channels guarantees you a better outcome than winging through life under pretenses no matter how well intending! You can't get a job as a doctor outside of academia and you can't get into the eternal house without religion. As for what makes ones beliefs morally good, well it depends on the outcome and ultimately those are judged by the creator.

How does Hell work into this doctor analogy? Nobody judges you for not becoming a doctor. You are not tortured for all eternity for not becoming a doctor.

What is astonishing to me personally is why people who don't believe in the afterlife or God preoccupy themselves so much with what happens in the afterlife and with God.. does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. If I conceived of, and more importantly, worshiped, obeyed and followed, a God who you knew didn't exist but who was blatantly immoral and tyranical, that would say a lot about me, my intentions, my values, etc. And then if I equated morality with obedience to this God and declared those who dislike or disbelieve in this God as Evil, that would also say something about my mindset.

You do not have to believe in something to see it as a negative, or as a positive for that matter. I can agree with much of what certain prophets said and appreciate the effect people believing in them has on believers. I don't have to be a believer myself for that. I can read passages in the Quran, for example, and see how they will lead people to kindness and good behaviour and be thankful that it says that instead of something leading them to cruel and bad behaviour. I can appreciate and admire that Islam lacks the Christian concept of vicarious redemption for example.

Imagine how different world history may be had the Christian Bible (which was held as holy by those who conquered most of the planet) explicitly forbid slavery, instead of half-condoning it. Imagine also if the Ten Commandments started with a call to morality instead of the call to obedience ("I am the Lord thy God, thou shall have no Gods before me" being instead the golden rule or rules against rape and slavery etc)

 

[aamirsaab]

...Let's assume what you say is true. Why would God send people to hell for their disbelief then? Your explanation attempts to show people aren't worthy of reward, but how are they worthy of punishment ? Why doesn't God just vanish non-theists from existence once they die instead of sending them to hell? Again, the reason is because of their sole nonbelief in God but what is it about that nonbelief in God that makes someone worthy of eternal hell-fire.

Because the belief in Allah is central to Islam. It's the very essence, the core, of the religion. Not having it is akin to blasphemy, especially when you have lived amongst His creations (your body being one of them).

On the day of judgement, God is not going to say "well lynx, you were a pretty good lad for 90% of your life, but for the mere fact of not believing I existed in the remaining 10%, you can go to hell". It's not a case of thought-crime, so that rules out punishment for non-belief. It is however a case of what actions you did in relation to those thoughts.

Having doubts, yeah you wouldn't be human otherwise (heck, almost every muslim I know at one point in their lives had serious doubts and even cases of neglecting Islam alltogether [some would consider it apostacy]), but don't write yourself off completely, the test isn't over - you are still in control of your fate.

 

[Zafran]

So God is only concerned if the action is done in his name regardless of whether or not the person has upheld his principles? :S

Let's assume what you say is true. Why would God send people to hell for their disbelief then? Your explanation attempts to show people aren't worthy of reward, but how are they worthy of punishment ? Why doesn't God just vanish non-theists from existence once they die instead of sending them to hell? Again, the reason is because of their sole nonbelief in God but what is it about that nonbelief in God that makes someone worthy of eternal hell-fire.

what does your first point actually mean - its dead straight forward - You believe in God and hold his principles by acting upon your belief in God - why are you making a distincton between God's principles and In God's name is beyond me as its the same thing. To even to uphold God's principles you have to do the first step actually believe in God.

If you dont believe in God your doing your actions for a different reason all togather its not for God. Its simple as that.

People who do not worship God will worship something else from desires to idols - they will do there actions other then in the name of God - they are ultimatly living there lifes for a totally different reason - opening up the door that God has already warned us about.