Gay Couples are to be Allowed to Marry in Churches.

[Pygoscelis]

forced to be allowed to get married in places of worship, that's what I call bigotry.

In same way that stopping a KKK rally in the public square would be "bigotry" (it wouldn't). I would oppose both, as both are violations of civil liberties that should be respected, but both would also be deeply ironic.

 

[Wyatt]

What a good friend of mine has said, "If there's any certain group of people you hate, chances are, they might end up in your family. Don't like gays? Guess what, your daughter is gay. Don't like black people? Guess what, your son is marrying a black woman." (He's "a gay" and he had a point. Anyone's child can be gay. It's really whoever pulls the 'short straw'.)

I have nothing against homosexuality (because I believe it's not a choice and I think it's shameful to try and change who one is for people who don't accept them for who they already are), but I do not think they should marry in a religious setting that frowns upon their way of life.

That's just like a religious person handing out religious pamphlets in a gay club... or an atheistic place? I'm not sure if Atheists gather at all.

 

[glo]

What a good friend of mine has said, "If there's any certain group of people you hate, chances are, they might end up in your family. Don't like gays? Guess what, your daughter is gay. Don't like black people? Guess what, your son is marrying a black woman." (He's "a gay" and he had a point. Anyone's child can be gay. It's really whoever pulls the 'short straw'.)

To explore what people would do if their own children were gay, would make in interesting thread.

I have nothing against homosexuality (because I believe it's not a choice and I think it's shameful to try and change who one is for people who don't accept them for who they already are), but I do not think they should marry in a religious setting that frowns upon their way of life.

But isn't that the point of the new rule?
That religious groups and places of worship who are not opposed to people leading homosexual lifestyles can offer marriage ceremonies to gay people, whereas those who are opposed can keep their door firmly shut.

 

[جوري]

I have nothing against homosexuality (because I believe it's not a choice and I think it's shameful to try and change who one is for people who don't accept them for who they already are), but I do not think they should marry in a religious setting that frowns upon their way of life.

Wyatt, if you've been keeping up with the thread or any of the other numerous threads, you'd have learned that homosexuality is a psychological deviation not different from others that still remain in the DSM as such.. perhaps in the future they too will be taken out under similar lobbying after all it is about feelings and inclinations.

I find it rather insulting that a person would compare a skin color or religion to a lewd sexual act and it is really the last I want to hear of it.. it is a disgusting and out of place similitude. you might not have a choice of your feelings, but you certainly have a choice with whom you sleep, and it is really no different than heterosexuality in that regard, what is immoral is immoral. You might have feelings for your brother's wife and you can't help it, but you can do the noble thing and walk away from acting on such feelings!

all the best

 

[Wyatt]

I find it rather insulting that a person would compare a skin color or religion to a lewd sexual act and it is really the last I want to hear of it.. it is a disgusting and out of place similitude.

Is that about my quote? He was just talking about different groups against whom there's been discrimination.

 

[جوري]

Is that about my quote? He was just talking about different groups against whom there's been discrimination.

I don't see how disapproving of a certain lifestyle = discrimination or even 'homophobia' which seems a fan favorite.. to discriminate is to set apart and no one would be able to do so unless a homo advertised that he is a homo for the purpose of just that setting himself/ herself apart and getting a rise out of people as they do for instance in their disgusting parades. And a homophobia is characterized by irrational fear, neither fits the religious views of what homosexuality is to us as an estrangement from God and transgression against his commandments for base desires.
No one has a hand in being born poor, or yellow or white or green or black, but we do have a choice with whom we lie..

all the best

 

[M.I.A.]

there are a lot of people who give in to base desires, it drives people to do all sorts of things.. trying to keep them in check and recieving support for doing such is the way forward.
hate of the action and not the person.

you cant keep somebody in sadness all there lives, unless you have some sort of reward at the end.

nobody is perfect though.

 

[GuestFellow]

Is that about my quote? He was just talking about different groups against whom there's been discrimination.

I'm not sure how sexual discrimination will occur in practice. Generally we all have a presumption that whoever we meet is hetrosexual. Unless the person acts like the opposite gender or reveals their sexuality, I'm not sure how discrimination would occur.

 

[Wyatt]

I'm not saying there's any discrimination right here, but in general, homosexual people are killed or bullied for being that way, be it religiously backed up or not. Just like how people of certain skin colours have been killed or bullied. They don't necessarily have to sleep with someone for that to happen, children in schools are beat up just for putting off the impression of being gay. There's been light shed upon that issue lately here in the US.

I also think the lying with whomever one does should be kept private. That would be for ones god to judge rather than another person (unless it's directly affecting another, like if it's a family member). Otherwise, it's not really anyone's business to give hassle. At least, those are my opinions. I shake a stick at no one who doesn't shake one first.

The attraction to the same gender can't be helped, and it's discouraged under certain doctrines to embrace those feelings and accept them, but most do. I think homosexuality's been around, will always be around, and there's nothing that can stop it from occurring. One has to manage to live alongside it.

If we condemn anyone, they will condemn us. That about goes along with one of Newton's laws of physics... the whole equal and opposite reaction thing.

I do hate gay parades that are so immodest and sexual. It really doesn't put off a good impression to those from whom they ask for equal rights. And it doesn't do the rest of the gay community that's not like that a favour either.

I have a feeling that not many here will respect this post. I tried wording it very carefully, but I still think I'll be disliked for it. As well, it's just my input. I'm just some person in Nowhere, Kansas.

 

[GuestFellow]

I'm not saying there's any discrimination right here, but in general, homosexual people are killed or bullied for being that way, be it religiously backed up or not. Just like how people of certain skin colours have been killed or bullied. They don't necessarily have to sleep with someone for that to happen, children in schools are beat up just for putting off the impression of being gay. There's been light shed upon that issue lately here in the US.

I understand some homosexual people are bulled and killed. The victims of these attacks are targeted because they act or look like the opposite gender. This does not mean that they are homosexual. Some people that act straight can be homosexual.

This is the issue I have with discrimination laws. Sexuality is a private issue and people can keep this to themselves, unlike someone's skin colour. There is no need to boast about it or have a parade, even when the rights are fully given.

I have a feeling that not many here will respect this post. I tried wording it very carefully, but I still think I'll be disliked for it. As well, it's just my input. I'm just some person in Nowhere, Kansas.

I'm not going to dislike you because there is a disagreement. o_o

 

[Pygoscelis]

To explore what people would do if their own children were gay, would make in interesting thread.

I'd actually be afraid to ask that question of people around here.

But isn't that the point of the new rule?
That religious groups and places of worship who are not opposed to people leading homosexual lifestyles can offer marriage ceremonies to gay people, whereas those who are opposed can keep their door firmly shut.

Correct. And that's how it should be.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I'm not sure how sexual discrimination will occur in practice. Generally we all have a presumption that whoever we meet is hetrosexual. Unless the person acts like the opposite gender or reveals their sexuality, I'm not sure how discrimination would occur.

One case in point is right there in the thread title. Homosexuals have for a long while been denied the right to marry the one they love, and gain all the benefits, both spiritual and legal that come with marriage. In the past 20 years or so we have been changing that. Civil unions now exist that carry many of the rights that used to be exclusive to marriage. We are making progress.

Another example is that homosexuals in many regions are denied the adoption of children, even when those children have nowhere else to go. And all for the irrational religious doctrine that homosuality is a "sin" (and we can't have children living around "sin"!)

 

[Pygoscelis]

you might not have a choice of your feelings, but you certainly have a choice with whom you sleep, and it is really no different than heterosexuality in that regard

We are not telling heterosexuals they can not have sex with the gender they are attracted to, thus telling them they shouldn't have sex at all. So yes, it is quite different.

No one has a hand in being born poor, or yellow or white or green or black, but we do have a choice with whom we lie..

Black people had a choice to sit at the front of the bus where only white people were supposed to be, or to drink from the white-only water fountain too.

 

[جوري]

We are not telling heterosexuals they can not have sex with the gender they are attracted to, thus telling them they shouldn't have sex at all. So yes, it is quite different.

It isn't different at all when you can't sleep with the one you desire to sleep with.. if it is a matter of lewd sex which in fact I think it is (and nothing related to love at all) then there are all sorts of sordid people and sordid toys to fulfill that purpose.. and lastly I am not telling anyone to sleep or not sleep with anyone, I couldn't care less. I am speaking purely from what is religiously acceptable, especially when seeking something like an institutional wedding from church or mosque or whatever. This is something that will need to be pursued outside of religion!

Black people had a choice to sit at the front of the bus where only white people were supposed to be, or to drink from the white-only water fountain too.

This doesn't relate to anything we're speaking about and I truly have my doubts that you can get your head out of there long enough to stratify thins into their proper categories!

all the best

 

[GuestFellow]

One case in point is right there in the thread title. Homosexuals have for a long while been denied the right to marry the one they love, and gain all the benefits, both spiritual and legal that come with marriage. In the past 20 years or so we have been changing that. Civil unions now exist that carry many of the rights that used to be exclusive to marriage. We are making progress.

Another example is that homosexuals in many regions are denied the adoption of children, even when those children have nowhere else to go. And all for the irrational religious doctrine that homosuality is a "sin" (and we can't have children living around "sin"!)

People marching in the streets, wearing rainbow clothing, some semi-naked with loud music and expressing their sexuality in open public? I think the definition of progress has changed lol...of course, you are entitled to your opinion.

To explore what people would do if their own children were gay, would make in interesting thread.

One of my relatives is homosexual. He never engaged in any sexual relations. He has got his masters and works for a company. He lives with his parents. He has four brothers, three are married and one living in Pakistan. Sometimes, unintentionally, he behaved in a feminine manner but it does not bother me. He lives a normal life...

His mom and dad knew that he was gay because he acted feminine when he was younger. So they raised him to ensure he does not date guys and he practiced Islam like any other Muslim. He was made fun of by his older brothers and at primary school, but it did not have a significant impact...he is very successful now. Can't believe he does not offer me any work experience placements.

 

[Ramadhan]

I have nothing against homosexuality (because I believe it's not a choice and I think it's shameful to try and change who one is for people who don't accept them for who they already are),

It's not a choice? Really? Got any scientific data to support?

How about those men who had been married for years, got kids, and then at the ripe age of 40 or 50 started to enjoy homosexual sex, divorced their wives, and then flount their newly found "sexuality" and parade up and down the street half naked?

It seems like a choice to me.

 

[Ramadhan]

And all for the irrational religious doctrine that homosuality is a "sin"

I am so glad that most people are still obeying God's laws and still consider homosexuality is a sin, although there is a certain christian here who thinks otherwise.

 

[Wyatt]

It's not a choice? Really? Got any scientific data to support?

How about those men who had been married for years, got kids, and then at the ripe age of 40 or 50 started to enjoy homosexual sex, divorced their wives, and then flount their newly found "sexuality" and parade up and down the street half naked?

It seems like a choice to me.

Well, I, being gay myself, don't believe it's a choice. I should know. Most of my life I tried to make myself straight because I felt insecure about it and thought it would make things easier. It never worked no matter how hard I tried. I also prayed to God when I was Christian that he would make me straight or at least help.

I also don't flaunt it, advertise it, nor do I support any type of public sexuality like gay parades.

Maybe it can be a choice, but for many, we're like this from the very beginning and a lot do try to make themselves straight so they don't disappoint others.

I may be sinning in the eyes of others, but I've hurt no one, so I don't feel like there's anything wrong with accepting who I am.

 

[جوري]

Maybe it can be a choice, but for many, we're like this from the very beginning and a lot do try to make themselves straight so they don't disappoint others.

I think disappointing God is worse of all.. but I don't think anyone will persecute you for having these kinds of feelings..

here is a story of one Muslim who was gay

When You Find Out You Are a Gay

My world was so confused as I kept asking myself why men marry women when in fact, they love men?
Editor's note: This is the true story of an ex-homosexual man. It is published here with the author's kind permission.

I was born in a devout Muslim family. All my family members keep the five daily prayers, fast in the month of Ramadan, and observe all the Islamic teachings and rituals. My parents performed Hajj in the 1970s. There are 14 of us in the family. I am the 11th and the last son of a 5-brother and 9-sister family. I am close to my sisters and my mother compared to my brothers. My father passed away when I was 10.

I felt attracted to guys when I was young. Maybe the feeling developed when I was 10 years old. At 14, I knew that I would not want to get married as I was not attracted to women. I thought of how I would face my brothers and sisters when they all would get married and I would stay single.
My world was so confused as I asked myself why men marry women when in fact they love men. Then I realized that it was only me who felt that way. I was never abused by anyone. I still have no clue why it affected me.

Same Sex Experience


Last March, while reading Qur'an after Fajr Prayer, I prayed in my heart that Allah gives me a female companion. I wanted to stop all thisSomehow, time passed by so fast and I had to face the reality that I will stay single forever. Luckily, some of my brothers and sisters got married when I was studying in the US. When I finished my degree, I stayed in Kuala Lumpur away from my family. Therefore, I could escape from the marriage questions.

My first SSE (Same-Sex Experience) started during college days. It continued after completing my studies when I settled back in Kuala Lumpur. It went further as my work took me to the Middle East. During these times, I still continued with my prayers. Sometimes, I felt so shy to face Allah during prayer as I just had sex earlier. Sometimes, I waited till the next day.

Although my career grew, I felt turbulence in life. My career did not go as smoothly as I wanted it to. My life was empty and my emotions were unstable as I kept changing partners. Then, I read a hadith about those committing sodomy.

Two years ago, I was out of work. I thought that was the worst time of my life when in fact it was the best time ever. I started reading the translation of the Qur'an. The imam in a mini mosque read hadiths (from the collection of Imam An-Nawawi) every morning after Fajr Prayer (Arabic for: [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Dawn [COLOR=blue ! important]Prayer

[/COLOR][/COLOR]). I now realize how these hadiths have shaped my life and my thinking.
I also read Prophet Muhammad's (peace and blessings be upon him) biography and the biographies of the 10 Companions who were promised Paradise. These stories moved me.
Even with all this, I still continued with my SSE, as bad habits die hard.

During my 6-month out-of-work period, Allah taught me how to surrender to Him. When I was hungry with no food to eat, Allah sent people offering me to eat with them. I did not have to ask Allah for this. He read me well. I was glad.
Surrendering to Allah is the turning point of my life. Reading the translation of the Qur'an has changed my perception of thinking and looking at this world. I read the book Road to Mecca by Muhammed Assad. I felt like a totally new Muslim.

Even with all this, I was still having SSE.

Words from Prophet Lut to his people kept me thinking. "Take my daughters for your wife. May you will find peace." I smiled sarcastically as I know these people were not interested in women, how could he offer his daughters? But then again, these are a prophet's words. There must be some truth in them.

Last March, while reading Qur'an after Fajr Prayer, I prayed in my heart that Allah gives me a female companion. I wanted to stop all this. I felt tired of my life, felt like every time I was climbing ladders to reach to the highest level of faith, I fell down when I had a SSE.

Getting Married

Allah gave me a wife who fulfilled 9 out of 10 on my checklistWith my companion, I could channel my sexual desire according to Islam. Within a week, Allah sent someone who wanted to introduce me to her auntie. (I said in my heart: An auntie?) I said, "OK if I have the time." Then the lady was brought to me in the same evening. There was not much conversation except that she said that her favorite journey is from her house to the masjid. That was the last word we spoke before I adjourned to surau for my `Asr Prayer (Arabic for: [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Afternoon [COLOR=blue ! important]Prayer[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]).

After the first [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]meeting[/COLOR][/COLOR], we contacted each other via text messages. She asked me "Why didn't I get married?" I was a bit stunned and replied with all sorts of excuses. Then I resent to inform that in fact I did not get married because I was born homosexual. After a week of text messaging, I asked her if that it was OK to let my mom know about us and I found the right person. She said "OK." Within three months, we were married in a small ceremony.

Allah gave me a wife. She fulfilled 9 out of 10 on my checklist. I told her the one she did not fulfill is that she is a woman, not a man. She smiled. Allah offered me the qualities in her as if I spelled out my checklist. Allah knows me too well and knows what makes me happy.

During the three months that I knew her (before marriage), I did not feel attracted to her, I did not feel the arousal when I was with her. Nor does she toward me. I surrendered to Allah alone as I read in the Qur'an that He is the One Who showers the love feeling.
I prayed to Allah to shower us with love and make me feel aroused with her. True enough, Allah accepted my plea.

During the process of knowing my wife, I stumbled upon straight struggle Yahoo! groups based in the UK that cater for Muslims who face Same Sex Attraction (SSA) all over the world. I shared my life experience and my successful story with the groups. I am glad that I paved the way and encouraged some to take the first step to get married and counter the fear of first-night marriage.
In sha' Allah, my small contribution will lead to many successful heterosexual marriages in the future. Amen.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...ture/ACELayout

[/COLOR]

 

[MustafaMc]

I am so glad that most people are still obeying God's laws and still consider homosexuality is a sin, although there is a certain christian here who thinks otherwise.

How can there be any question by anyone that practicing homosexuality is a sin?

1) Only heterosexual marriages are halal
In ayat 4:23 Allah (swt) lists those to whom marriage is forbidden. Since every case listed is a female relationship it is implied that males of all classes are forbidden for a man to marry. For example, if Allah (swt) had allowed same-sex marriage in general, then in this ayat He would have listed fathers beside mothers and sons beside daughters as forbidden. Since these are not listed it again implies that all males are forbidden for him to marry.

2) Extra-marital sexual relations are haram
We also know that sexual relationships outside of marriage are forbidden. Since same-sex marriages are forbidden (per the logical conclusion above), it follows that all homosexual acts are forbidden as sinful.

3) Certain sexual relations are forbidden even between man and wife
Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone resorts to a diviner and believes in what he says, or has intercourse with his wife when she is menstruating, or has intercourse with his wife through her anus, he has nothing to do with what has been sent down to Muhammad (peace be upon him). Sunan Abu Dawood Book 29 hadith 3895
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=29&translator=3&start=0&number=3895#3895
It follows that similar relations with anyone besides one's wife is also forbidden.