What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?

[YieldedOne]

MustafaMc:
You are correct in pointing this out that there is a danger in reading too much into a word (Be!) and going beyond what is apparent in the meaning. Allah (swt) had a reason for creating Jesus (as) in Mary's womb independent of a human father and Allah (swt) knows best what that reason was.

What danger are you seeing, exactly, MustafaMc? I'm wondering.

 

[YieldedOne]

Lily:
As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways!

Well, thank goodness! I'll be holding my Muslim brothers and sisters to that more often!


************************************

Lily:
Beyond that, there is no common ground.. nor should any Muslim seek such common grounds with you.. They should find the concept of idolatry, and man worship patently appalling and not befitting of God's magistrate.

You must really disdain the 138 Muslim clerics and authorities who wrote up "A Common Word Between Us and You" then. That was their WHOLE PREMISE of the work! At any rate, I'll just have to disagree with you, sister. Lovingly, of course. :statisfie

We have Jesus' "Great Commandments" in common. Don't believe me? Well, there IS this thread you can check out...

 

[Insaanah]

Edit. Double post. Please delete.

 

[Insaanah]

Please note something. (You too, MustafaMc) All that the 3:59 text says is that like Adam he was 1) directly originated from God's will and purpose and 2) bodily created.

Nice try, but the text says neither.

When one attempts to have an honest discussion, it's best to try not to impart your own desired meanings to verses of the Qur'an to try to make it look as though the Qu'ran justifies what you are trying to say. Christian theologians have done similar to this with the bible and applied their own personal understandings of verses throughout the early years, until we have ended up with what is today called Christianity, which would be completely alien to Jesus (peace be upon him). I hope you will refrain from this.

Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. (2:117)

She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" He said: So (it will be). Allah creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is. (3:47)

Indeed, Our word to a thing when We intend it is but that We say to it, "Be," and it is. (16:40)

It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah to take a son; Glory be to Him! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. (19:35)

Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is! (36:82)

He it is who gives life and causes death; and when He decrees a matter, He but says to it, "Be," and it is. (40:68)

Same argument as above. No Muslim would say that just because a Quran is capable of being destroyed/annihilated that is is NOT uncreated or eternal for that reason.

Correction. Only a mus'haf (a printed copy of the Qur'an) can be destroyed. The Qur'an itself can never be destroyed.

As for your argument in your second sentence, it is a very desperate one. Don't go applying that to Jesus (peace be upon him) and his body. Islam is clear that ALL humans (including Jesus, peace be upon him) are created and mortal.

No matter how hard you try, what renditions of your own you attempt to give to verses, and what analogies you try to use, it won't work. We will never consider Jesus (peace be upon him) to be uncreated or eternal, only as he actually was.

My intention is to try to find as much authentic "common ground" as possible between Islam and Christianity for the sake of interfaith dialogue.

I see. In that case, you are barking up the wrong tree. Let me save you lots of time and effort. These are our beliefs regarding Jesus (peace be upon him):

We believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was one of the mightiest messengers of Allah.
We believe that he was the messiah.
We believe he was born miraculously without any male intervention.
We believe that he gave life to the dead with Allah's permission.
We believe he healed those born blind and lepers with Allah's permission.

We neither reject him like the Jews, nor elevate his status to divine or son of God, like the Christians. We believe in him as he was, one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the face of the earth.

However we do not believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) ever claimed divinity, was divine, or that he was God, son of God, or that worship should be directed at him, or that he asked for it to be. We do not believe that he was uncreated, or that he was eternal. We also do not believe that he died, nor that he was crucified, bore the burden of anyones' sins, was cursed, was a curse himself, expressed displeasure at Allah, or was rude to his mother (peace be upon her).

Glorified and Exalted be the Majesty of Allah, and peace be upon all the prophets and messengers He sent, without exception.

Peace.

 

[MustafaMc]

What danger are you seeing, exactly, MustafaMc? I'm wondering.

The danger is in speaking a lie against Allah (swt) even unintentionally or by being trapped into doing so. Muslims take this seriously and is the reason for our frequent reply, "And Allah knows best."

 

[YieldedOne]

Ok. More fun...

Insaanah:
When one attempts to have an honest discussion, it's best to try not to impart your own desired meanings to verses of the Qur'an to try to make it look as though the Qu'ran justifies what you are trying to say. Christian theologians have done similar to this with the bible and applied their own personal understandings of verses throughout the early years, until we have ended up with what is today called Christianity, which would be completely alien to Jesus (peace be upon him). I hope you will refrain from this.

Sister Insaanah, I would ask that you try to give me the benefit of the doubt that I am not trying merely trying to co-opt Islam with Christian ideas. I would hope that you would give me more credit than that. I am honestly looking at the texts, authoritative sources, and all that...and seeing what I can see. I can't change what other Christians have done...and I guess to some extent, I'm going to vicariously experience some of the flak from what has happened before. All I can do is be as honest as I can, sister. I hope that you can appreciate and respect that.

Moving on...

*************************************
Texts:
Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. (2:117)

She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" He said: So (it will be). Allah creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is. (3:47)

Indeed, Our word to a thing when We intend it is but that We say to it, "Be," and it is. (16:40)

It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah to take a son; Glory be to Him! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. (19:35)

Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is! (36:82)

He it is who gives life and causes death; and when He decrees a matter, He but says to it, "Be," and it is. (40:68)

Ok. Here's my honest take from looking at the texts: They articulate that God's will grounds everything. Of course, the texts are not saying that God has to be the word "Be!" before he does everything; they do not limit Allah's sovereignty to using words. God commands something to be done...and it's done. Divine sovereignty.
Now, if I've totally mistaken these passages, please let me know. But they seem pretty obvious on this score. And for the record, even as a Christian, I would agree with the statements: God is sovereign such that all he needs to do is will something to be--to proverbially "speak" something into being--and it is. I believe God does that with Creation at every moment.

At the same time, I don't understand how this detracts from my main line of argument. My argument does not dispute God's creative sovereignty in any way. Nor does it deny that the human embryo of Jesus was created by the "Be!" of God. It doesn't do any of that. It just states that, LIKE THE QURAN, it is conceivable that something more is there. So I don't understand your point, dear sister. Please help me see how these texts completely eliminate the possibility I'm talking about.

*********************************
Insaanah:
Correction. Only a mus'haf (a printed copy of the Qur'an) can be destroyed. The Qur'an itself can never be destroyed.

Speaking in terms of Creation, the Quran exists either as social knowledge (oral traditions, etc.) or encoded language (printed page, online, etc). If, for some reason, neither of those were to exist anymore, the Quran would effectively cease to exist in Creation. I think this is just logic, Insaanah.

When you say that the Quran itself can never be destroyed, are you saying that because you believe it's uncreated and eternal, like I've stated before. I Maybe that's what I should understand: Do you believe in the uncreated, eternal nature of the Quran? If you do, then I don't understand your reticence to admit this possibility for Jesus, who is also a "word" from Allah. It can't be philosophical in nature, I don't think...

**********************************

Insaanah:
As for your argument in your second sentence, it is a very desperate one. Don't go applying that to Jesus (peace be upon him) and his body. Islam is clear that ALL humans (including Jesus, peace be upon him) are created and mortal.

No matter how hard you try, what renditions of your own you attempt to give to verses, and what analogies you try to use, it won't work. We will never consider Jesus (peace be upon him) to be uncreated or eternal, only as he actually was.

1) Frankly, I don't feel my argument is "desperate" at all. Namely, because there is no "desperation" in why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm reading texts and sources, talking to Muslims (like you)...and putting things together.

2) I have never once said that Jesus, as human, wasn't created and mortal. As a matter of fact, I'm saying that Jesus' humanity was as "created and mortal" as every other human being...AND as every earthly version of the Quran that we have. What I've been saying is this, sister: There is no metaphysical or theological reason I've seen that shows the impossibility of what I've been saying here, SPECIFICALLY because of 1) Jesus' being a word from Allah himself and 2) the claimed uncreated, pre-existent, eternal nature of a very TANGIBLE, CREATED Quran.

If you choose not to accept the argument, that's completely your choice. But there is no "desperation" about what I'm saying. And you haven't provided me with anything to eliminate the possibility I'm advocating.

**********************************

Insaanah:
We believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was one of the mightiest messengers of Allah.

We believe that he was the messiah.

We believe he was born miraculously without any male intervention.

We believe that he gave life to the dead with Allah's permission.

We believe he healed those born blind and lepers with Allah's permission.

We neither reject him like the Jews, nor elevate his status to divine or son of God, like the Christians. We believe in him as he was, one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the face of the earth.

However we do not believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) ever claimed divinity, was divine, or that he was God, son of God, or that worship should be directed at him, or that he asked for it to be. We do not believe that he was uncreated, or that he was eternal. We also do not believe that he died, nor that he was crucified, bore the burden of anyones' sins, was cursed, was a curse himself, expressed displeasure at Allah, or was rude to his mother (peace be upon her).

Hey. Don't forget that he taught about the "Great Commandments" in the Torah of Moses! :shade:

Anyways...

I understand all that. Really. Islam 101, right? The only thing that I take exception to is your underlined part. I've been asking for evidence of some type that will demonstrate the inconceivability and/or impossibility of Jesus as direct "word" from Allah to humanity through Mary being LIKE UNTO the paradoxically uncreated, pre-existent, eternal AND created, produced, temporal nature of Allah's "word" , the Quran. To this point, I've not seen that. All I keep getting is assertions about how the Quran talks about Jesus coming to "be" at some point in time in human history by divine fiat. But again, I don't deny that. So, I don't see the problem. Honestly.

***********************************

My genuine HOPE, my brothers and sisters, is that all parties can assume GOOD FAITH on all parts of the conversation. I'm having that. I'm hoping the same can be said for me.

 

[YieldedOne]

Since Sister Insaanah put a list of things of what Muslims believe...let me put of list of things that I'm NOT saying with my thinking here...

I am not saying that Jesus should be worshipped as God.
I am not saying that Jesus is the Son of God.
I am not saying that Jesus was any more or less of a prophet than all.
I am not saying that Jesus actually died and was resurrected following death.
I am not saying that Jesus died for human sin.
I am not saying that Jesus lacked human createdness.

I really, really, really want this clear. Yes, I am a Christian...and as such, I believe Jesus is the Crucified and Resurrected Son of God. But (and this is a big "but", brothers and sisters)...absolutely none of that...NONE...applies to the specific line of thinking I'm using right now. I am JUST focusing on the two Islamic beliefs that 1) the Quran as uncreated, pre-existent, eternal nature of a created/produced "word" of Allah and 2) Jesus as direct spoken "word" from Allah to humanity through Mary. That's it and that's all.

Either my brothers and sisters can trust me on that or not. I hope that you do.

Peace out,
YO

***************************

Re-quoting...

Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that the Qur'an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah Most High on the evidence of the Qur'an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason.

In a rare instance of classic kalâm reasoning, Imam Malik gave the most succint statement of this doctrine:
"The Qur'an is the Speech of Allah, the Speech of Allah comes from Him, and nothing created comes from Allah Most High." Narrated by al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' (Dar al-Fikr ed. 7:416).

Hafiz Abu al-Qasim Ibn `Asakir said in Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari (Dar al-Jil ed. p. 150-151):
"The Mu`tazila said: 'the Speech of Allah Most High is created, invented, and brought into being.' The Hashwiyya, who attribute a body to Allah the Exalted, said: 'The alphabetical characters (al-hurûf al-muqatta`a), the materials on which they are written, the colors in which they are written, and all that is between the two covers [of the volumes of Qur'an] is beginningless and pre-existent (qadîma azaliyya). Al-Ash`ari took a middle road between them and said: The Qur'an is the beginningless speech of Allah Most High unchanged, uncreated, not of recent origin in time, nor brought into being. As for the alphabetical characters, the materials, the colors, the voices, the elements that are subject to limitations (al-mahdûdât), and all that is subject to modality (al-mukayyafât) in the0 world: all this is created, originated, and produced."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don’t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

 

[Insaanah]

it is conceivable that something more is there

And this is exactly how early Christianity faltered. It seemed conceivable to them, that something more was there, that God was three in one, that God begot a son who died for their sins, Jesus was God etc. We Muslims will never conceive of anything more being there other than what is said in the Qur'an by Allah, and explanations given by the Prophet (peace be upon him) and righteous scholars. We will never conceive of anything else being there. We are not open to anything else and we do not interpret our Scriptures according to our fancies or to mere "possibilities".

If you do, then I don't understand your reticence to admit this possibility for Jesus, who is also a "word" from Allah.

You do understand now, from the above. I repeat, all humans are created and mortal.

What I've been saying is this, sister: There is no metaphysical or theological reason I've seen that shows the impossibility of what I've been saying here,

As I've explained above, Islam and Muslims don't work on that basis. We go by the words of our Creator, not the suppositions of a Christian.

And you haven't provided me with anything to eliminate the possibility I'm advocating.

I don't need to. See above again. The text is crystal clear. Take it or leave it, nobody is forcing you to accept it. But please do not try to impose the idea you would like us to have of Jesus (peace be upon him) on us. It is not welcome. We will never even consider something we are clearly told otherwise. And I emphasise that again.

I've been asking for evidence of some type that will demonstrate the inconceivability and/or impossibility of Jesus as direct "word" from Allah to humanity through Mary being LIKE UNTO the paradoxically uncreated, pre-existent, eternal AND created, produced, temporal nature of Allah's "word" , the Quran. To this point, I've not seen that.

No. You've chosen not to see it.

All I keep getting is assertions about how the Quran talks about Jesus coming to "be" at some point in time in human history by divine fiat.

The Qur'anic text is crystal clear on Jesus's (peace be upon him) creation and mortality. All humans including Jesus (peace be upon him), whether they are the word of Allah or not, are created mortals.

I'm sorry you can't see what's written in front of you I really am. And I hope someday Allah guides you to the truth.

Peace.

 

[YieldedOne]

Total sidebar:

One of the things that I loved about this discussion board when I first came was the gender section. The whole "Brother in Christianity", "Sister in Islam", "Brother in Humanity" stuff. I felt like it really keep central that, at base, we are all ONE HUMAN FAMILY on planet. As such, the "neighbors" that we are supposed to love as ourselves are truly united with us on some level as family. I really appreciated the concept...and kudos to whoever laid it out like that.

Just thought I should mention.

 

[Insaanah]

The other reason we will never agree, is that you are approaching it from the point of view that Jesus's body was just a created shell that did die, to hold his "eternal, divine, uncreated nature". To us, he is a human being, created and mortal, like other humans. There is no more to him than that. Therefore to try to say to us that he existed before his creation is absurd to us.

What is meant by sending the 'word' or 'command' to Mary is that God ordered Mary's womb to become impregnated without coming into contact with sperm. In the beginning the Christians were told that this was the secret of the fatherless birth of Jesus. Later on, under the misleading influence of Greek philosophy, they equated this with the 'Logos', which was subsequently interpreted as the Divine attribute of speech. The next step in this connection was the development of the notion that this Divine attribute entered into the womb of Mary and assumed the physical form of Jesus. Thus there developed among the Christians the false doctrine of the godhead of Jesus, and the false notion that out of His attributes God caused that of speech to appear in the form of Jesus.

Footnote 4:171 from The Meaning of the Qur'an, by S. A Maududi http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=4&verse=163&to=171

Biblical verses relevant to the above, are below.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now I see where you are coming from, and where this could be heading.

Peace.

 

[YieldedOne]

Insaanah:
The other reason we will never agree, is that you are approaching it from the point of view that Jesus's body was just a created shell that did die, to hold his "eternal, divine, uncreated nature". To us, he is a human being, created and mortal, like other humans. There is no more to him than that. Therefore to try to say to us that he existed before his creation is absurd to us.

If I said "To try to say to me that the Quran existed before it's earthly origination (by way of Muhammad) is absurd to me"...how would you respond?

 

[جوري]

Well, thank goodness! I'll be holding my Muslim brothers and sisters to that more often!

There is also something to be said of wasting ones time non constructively on folks who are hell bent on taking men for gods!

You must really disdain the 138 Muslim clerics and authorities who wrote up "A Common Word Between Us and You" then. That was their WHOLE PREMISE of the work! At any rate, I'll just have to disagree with you, sister. Lovingly, of course. We have Jesus' "Great Commandments" in common. Don't believe me? Well, there IS this thread you can check out...

The great thing about Islam is that no cleric is responsible for the beliefs nor behavior of Muslims at large.. be that as it may.. I am pretty sure what was said (if at all) was so in the context of humanness and not religiosity. Every religion has a bit of truth in it.. like a USMLE question, but a somewhat correct answer will not score you a point, not on a test nor in the hereafter.. therefore commonalities are meaningless in the scheme of things since anything not being an absolute truth is simply false!

all the best

 

[YieldedOne]

Insaanah quoting Maududi:
What is meant by sending the 'word' or 'command' to Mary is that God ordered Mary's womb to become impregnated without coming into contact with sperm. In the beginning the Christians were told that this was the secret of the fatherless birth of Jesus. Later on, under the misleading influence of Greek philosophy, they equated this with the 'Logos', which was subsequently interpreted as the Divine attribute of speech. The next step in this connection was the development of the notion that this Divine attribute entered into the womb of Mary and assumed the physical form of Jesus. Thus there developed among the Christians the false doctrine of the godhead of Jesus, and the false notion that out of His attributes God caused that of speech to appear in the form of Jesus.

Ah, Mr. Maududi! Yeah. I've seen some of his commentaries. Good stuff. I used one for my thread on the Great Commandments. Anyways...it seems here that Mr. Maududi affirms that the "word" from God is the divine fiat by which Mary's conception of the human Jesus took place. No problems there. And he mentions Hellenistic influence on Judeo-Christian thought, which makes sense. (See Philo of Alexandria).

At the same time, I didn't see him mention Judeo-Christian interpretation of Psalm 33:6 or Proverbs 8:22-36. If you look carefully at the texts, it introduces the idea of the creative "word" of the Lord (Psalms)...and the idea of a pre-existent Wisdom by which God created all things (Proverbs). These have nothing to do with the later Hellenistic influences...and it was these Scriptures that grounded the emergence of the Logos concept in later times. In short, the seeds of a creative "word" being pre-existent was NOT merely a Greek origination.

22The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.
32 “And now, O sons, listen to me:
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
and do not neglect it.
34 Blessed is the one who listens to me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting beside my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and obtains favor from the Lord,
36 but he who fails to find me injures himself;
all who hate me love death.”

 

[Insaanah]

If I said "To try to say to me that the Quran existed before it's earthly origination (by way of Muhammad) is absurd to me"...how would you respond?

I knew that was coming. Which is why I said in my earlier posts that no analogy that you try to make will work.

We do not and cannot compare the Qur'an to a created mortal human being. And as I also said earlier, we do not base our main beliefs on suppositions, possibilities, analogies and the desires of others for us to follow their misguidance. That is why Islam has not become corrupted. We follow the unchanged words of our Lord, Glorified and Exalted be He. That is how I would and do respond.

I repeat, yet again, that Jesus peace be upon him, is a created, mortal human being. You do not seem to be here to learn or understand, but seem to be hellbent on trying to convince us that we believe the same as you, which we will never do. There is no common ground here at all, and no scope for it whatsoever.

I will not waste any more time on this, but will pray that you are guided.

Peace.

 

[YieldedOne]

Lily:
There is also something to be said of wasting ones time non constructively on folks who are hell bent on taking men for gods!

Wow. Sure feel warm fuzzy feelings from that one. Sheesh. Did you see the list of things I'm NOT TRYING TO DO with my stuff. Let me put it again...

I am not saying that Jesus should be worshipped as God.
I am not saying that Jesus is the Son of God.
I am not saying that Jesus was any more or less of a prophet than all.
I am not saying that Jesus actually died and was resurrected following death.
I am not saying that Jesus died for human sin.
I am not saying that Jesus lacked human createdness.

Whew. Maybe THAT'll work. Hopefully...

*******************************************

Lily:
The great thing about Islam is that no cleric is responsible for the beliefs nor behavior of Muslims at large.. be that as it may.. I am pretty sure what was said (if at all) was so in the context of humanness and not religiosity. Every religion has a bit of truth in it.. like a USMLE question, but a somewhat correct answer will not score you a point, not on a test nor in the hereafter.. therefore commonalities are meaningless in the scheme of things since anything not being an absolute truth is simply false!

You know, Lily, that you can easily read the document for yourself. Right here.

"A Common Word Between Us and You"

It's right there. Check it out. Here's a snippet...

------------------------------

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful​

A Common Word between Us and You​

(Summary and Abridgement)​

Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.

The basis for this peace and understanding already exists. It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the One God, and love of the neighbour. These principles are found over and over again in the sacred texts of Islam and Christianity. The Unity of God, the necessity of love for Him, and the necessity of love of the neighbour is thus the common ground between Islam and Christianity. The following are only a few examples:

Of God’s Unity, God says in the Holy Qur’an: Say: He is God, the One! / God, the Self-Sufficient Besought of all! (Al-Ikhlas, 112:1-2). Of the necessity of love for God, God says in the Holy Qur’an: So invoke the Name of thy Lord and devote thyself to Him with a complete devotion (Al-Muzzammil, 73:8). Of the necessity of love for the neighbour, the Prophet Muhammad r said: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.”

In the New Testament, Jesus Christ u said: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. / And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. / And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:29-31)

In the Holy Qur’an, God Most High enjoins Muslims to issue the following call to Christians (and Jews—the People of the Scripture):
Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). (Aal ‘Imran 3:64)

The words: we shall ascribe no partner unto Him relate to the Unity of God, and the words: worship none but God, relate to being totally devoted to God. Hence they all relate to the First and Greatest Commandment. According to one of the oldest and most authoritative commentaries on the Holy Qur’an the words: that none of us shall take others for lords beside God, mean ‘that none of us should obey the other in disobedience to what God has commanded’. This relates to the Second Commandment because justice and freedom of religion are a crucial part of love of the neighbour.

Thus in obedience to the Holy Qur’an, we as Muslims invite Christians to come together with us on the basis of what is common to us, which is also what is most essential to our faith and practice: the Two Commandments of love.

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,​

And may peace and blessings be upon the Prophet Muhammad​

 

[YieldedOne]

Honestly, reading the sheer beautiful intention of "A Common Word Between Us and You" extended FROM Muslims TO the Christian world is what has fed my recent passion for Muslim/Christian interfaith dialogue. It's basically inspired people throughout the world. A whole DEPARTMENT in Yale University was innovated from it's sensibilities. It's one numerous awards for it's scope and intent.

 

[YieldedOne]

Insaanah:
I knew that was coming. Which is why I said in my earlier posts that no analogy that you try to make will work.
We do not and cannot compare the Qur'an to a created mortal human being. And as I also said earlier, we do not base our main beliefs on suppositions, possibilities, analogies and the desires of others for us to follow their misguidance. That is why Islam has not become corrupted. We follow the words of our Lord, Glorified and Exalted be He. That is how I would and do respond.

I repeat, Jesus peace be upon him, is a created, mortal human being.

Wow, this is getting difficult. :hmm:

Sister, it seems like you are getting a bit defensive here. I asked you the question I asked you because I want to know that answer. If someone were to say that to you, how would you respond? I felt like it could give me a handle here. But wow...I don't understand all this energy I'm getting from you. Really.

**********************
Insaanah:
I will not waste any more time on this, only pray that you are guided.

Please feel free to leave the conversation any time you wish. Be at peace, sis. Continue to pray to the All Loving, All Compassionate One for me. I think I'll be cool, then.

Blessings be to you always!!! :statisfie

 

[YieldedOne]

Insaanah:
I repeat, yet again, that Jesus peace be upon him, is a created, mortal human being. It is clear now that you are not here to learn or understand, but to try your level best to convince us that we believe the same as you, which we will never do. There is no common ground here at all, and no scope for it whatsoever.

Um, sister? It seems that you are directly questioning my motives here. I came to this board really just talking about the Great Commandments. Seriously. I saw this thread, thought about it, and started interacting with what I've been reading and thinking about. I'm not trying to proselytize or anything like that. Like I said to MustafaMc, I wanted to see if it was metaphysically and theological impossible that what I'm saying could be the case. Maybe I should have just left the thread alone. Oh, well. Just trying to dialogue.

Tell you what, sister. Let's just you and me call it a day, ok? I'm really sorry to have bothered you as it seems I have. Many blessings to you and yours! :shade:

 

[MustafaMc]

Biblical verses relevant to the above, are below.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now I see where you are coming from, and where this could be heading.

Peace.

Jazak Allahu khair, Sister Insaanah for pointing out the danger of entering the slippery slope of saying that Jesus (as) was more than a Messenger and Servant of Allah (swt). Quoting from your link: (4:171) People of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to Allah nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and His command 212 that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him (which led to Mary's conception). So believe in Allah and in His Messengers, and do not say: (Allah is a) trinity. Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. Allah is indeed just one God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. Allah is sufficient for a guardian.

Tafsir:
212. What is meant by sending the 'command' to Mary is that God ordered Mary's womb to become impregnated without coming into contact with sperm. In the beginning the Christians were told that this was the secret of the fatherless birth of Jesus. Later on, under the misleading influence of Greek philosophy, they equated this with the 'Logos', which was subsequently interpreted as the Divine attribute of speech. The next step in this connection was the development of the notion that this Divine attribute entered into the womb of Mary and assumed the physical form of Jesus. Thus there developed among the Christians the false doctrine of the godhead of Jesus, and the false notion that out of His attributes God caused that of speech to appear in the form of Jesus.

This translation has the word kalima translated as 'command' which gives the true meaning of the word in this case. Once a person admits that "there is metaphysical and theological "ROOM FOR AGREEMENT" on Jesus being an uncreated, eternal "kalimat" of God to humanity through Mary" (YieldedOne) then it is not a far stretch (despite what some may say) to say that Jesus was God, because the only uncreated being is God.

It seems to me that the proponents for 'interfaith dialog' want to dilute the differences between religions as the first step toward the establishment of a universal hybrid religion that accommodates all faiths as equally viable and legitimate. I had attended an interfaith dialog dinner and noticed there was no mention of differences between Christianity and Islam - only the similarities were discussed. We should not compromise our religion and let shirk slip in on us undetected.

 

[YieldedOne]

This is absolutely surreal to me. Wow.

MustafaMc:
This translation has the word kalima translated as 'command' which gives the true meaning of the word in this case. Once a person admits that "there is metaphysical and theological "ROOM FOR AGREEMENT" on Jesus being an uncreated, eternal "kalimat" of God to humanity through Mary" (YieldedOne) then it is not a far stretch (despite what some may say) to say that Jesus was God, because the only uncreated being is God.

It seems to me that the proponents for 'interfaith dialog' want to dilute the differences between religions as the first step toward the establishment of a universal hybrid religion that accommodates all faiths as equally viable and legitimate. I had attended an interfaith dialog dinner and noticed there was no mention of differences between Christianity and Islam - only the similarities were discussed. We should not compromise our religion and let shirk slip in on us undetected.

I've seen this type of "slippery slope" argument used by some Christians about why Christians shouldn't even read the Quran. I always thought that was bogus. But it seems I'm hearing the same type of reasoning here in a different form. Honest, civil, irenic, open discussion between Muslims and Christians on this issue cannot take place...because of a concern (fear?) of letting shirk "slip in" on Muslims undetected? Or for concern of the promotion of a "universal hybrid religion"?

Is this the way Muslim/Christian dialogues of this type always go down? I'm new to this...and MAN. It seems like a straight uphill road if this is the way it goes.

Maybe I oughta just cut my losses...hew

Livin' in Love till I Die,
YO