Another Scientific Miracle of Quran

[ThePhilosopher]

And yet you spoke without evidence when you suggested that people 2,000 years ago knew that animals could communicate and thus Muhammad (SAW) must have known that ants could talk.
So which standard will you be using next to argue something? with evidence or without evidence?

Unfortunately I cannot post links due to my limited posting. It only takes a google search and some common sense to realize that people speculating that animals can communicate is not such a great feat.

Which standard will you be using? I am not subject to your will in a debate. It seems you demand evidence yet cannot provide it when questioned about your Allah.

Whats up with atheists and unicorns and spaghetti monsters? Do you guys actually have that mental capacity of children?

Whats up with Muslims and angels and jinns? Do you guys actually have the mental capacity of children? You believe in jack and the beanstalk as well?

This is yet another evidence that you are definitely not ex devout, pious, knowledgeable muslim as you have claimed. Anyone from those with basic understanding of the Qur'an to the most trusted mufassir would be able to tell you that the story was actually not a parable.
Me and others attempting it to fit modern science?
Can you not read the qur'an verses themselves and see that the ants were told as talking to each other?

I see that you have no answer and became rather desperate.
Are you that atheist that WRITER met few years ago who told him that the Qur'an cannot possibly be the truth because ants do not talk?

Again, I do not care if you believe I am an ex-Muslim or not. You seem to be caught up on that fact, ok I will make it easier for you, I am not an ex-Muslim, don't believe me. Now we can move on.

The ants also know the name of a human being. Can you not read? Are you mentally incapable to distinguish truth from falsehood? Can insects comprehend the name of an individual person? No. They cant. It is a scientific inaccuracy.

As of now, humans cannot understands ants yet, and thats why it was mentioned in the Qur'an as a miracle given to the prophet Sulayman (pbuh), and as the talking ants were normal occurances. Unless you also want to dispute the split of the red sea, the creation of adam, the creation of jesus (pbut) which, by the way, especially mentioned in the qur'an as something special (miracles). As dagless wrote above:

Oh ok. It was A MIRACLE, THAT makes it ALL BETTER. No, it doesnt. It is still a scientific inaccuracy regardless of your whining and moaning. You can't change science so that it fits your narrow mind. A human understanding insects is scientifically inaccurate and an appeal to the unknown does not make it anymore accurate or cloaking it with "oh its a miracle" does not make it any more accurate either. Yes, I do dispute ALL OF THAT. The Christians were keen enough to disregard those ridiculous anecdotes as symbolism in the face of reason but it appears that not only Islamic countries are a thousand years behind but so are its adherents with their ridiculous fantasy stories.

Huh?
Are you that dense?
who asked you to follow the Qur'an because of vague scientific references?
or is it as vague as those atheists who argue that Qur;an cannot be true because ants do not talk?

And yet you take science as your bible, oblivious to the fact that what was proven true by science in the past has been proven wrong by current science and what is true by currentr science will certainly be proven wrong by future science, as it has been in all the past history of mankind.

I don't take science as my bible considering I do not claim no absolute truths. I am not "dense" enough to claim that something is 100 percent correct when there are so many unknowns out there. Apparently, the same cannot be said for you who still indulges himself in childish stone age fantasies. Yes science advances but the Quran does not which is why the majority of its countries are still living in 7th century Arabia.

Did the egyptians and the greek produce a book that were full of all kinds of literary, numerical, scientific miracles of qur'an, its 100% preservation, its content of timeless universal guidance for mankind, its inception of verses by verses in random order over 23 years with each verse responding to uniquely different situations with no facility for editing, its self-referencing and contradictions-free, the styles of recitation, etc?

If yes, let me know, and I will join you to worship the egyptianb and the greek gods.

No, they produced a structure that is still one of the greatest wonders of the world and requires a ridiculous amount of scientific and mathematical knowledge to create, which is why there is doubt that it is the work of humans especially in such an ancient time period. This is of course more unique and spectacular than a "good book". Yes universal guidance that has caused the majority of your beloved islamic countries to degrees into the stone age where Western countries with their man made laws had to come and pressure them to abolish slavery. Oh its a poetic book with science in it....IT MUST BE FROM GOD. The majority of your people live in poverty with absolutely corrupt and regressive countries adapting stone age laws into their system, the rest of them flock to Western countries so they can have a better standard of life in this man-made system and then others resort to blowing themselves up for your "allah". Oh truly magnificent, clap clap clap, praise be to Allah and the wonderful things he has done for you Muslims.

 

[Hiroshi]

Solomon wasn't a king but a prophet!

all the best

Shall I bother replying?

Surah 38:35
“He said: My Lord! Forgive me and bestow upon me sovereignty such as shall not belong to any after me.” (Pickthall)
“He said, “My Lord, forgive me and grant me a kingdom such as will not belong to anyone after me.”” (Saheeh International)
“He said, “O my Lord! forgive me, and grant me a Kingdom which, will not belong to another after me:” (Yusuf Ali)

It would be strange if Solomon was granted a kingdom but was not himself a king.

 

[SalamChristian]

That atheist must have been behind latest scientific discoveries
Atheists foolishly believe science as the truth, inexplicably oblivious to the fact that todays scientific truth will be proven incorrect by tomorrows science.

Hahaha, brilliant point brother!

Salaam

 

[Lynx]

Sure, possibility of coincidence that the creator of the Qur'an picked up a winner should not be discounted, but what seem to be discounted by non-muslims is that the qur'an is not just a book about talking ants. And anyway how did the originators actually knew that ants were able to talk?

My point is that the originator did not actually *know* that ants could talk. Old stories are full of talking animals; if it turns out that some of those animals do possess the ability to talk, are you going to conclude each of those authors had miraculous knowledge? And yes, I am comparing the story to something you see in a fairytale because, as others in this thread have mentioned, ants would not converse about people's names as this is a complicated thought process that an ant surely does not possess. Ants don't talk like humans but the Quran seems to think they do. I hope the point is clear.

When you take all unfailing aspects of the Qur'an (I am not going to list all here, as you are quite familiar with the qur'an and you can read in other threads about all kinds of literary, numerical, scientific miracles of qur'an, its 100% preservation, its content of timeless universal guidance for mankind, its inception of verses by verses in random order over 23 years with each verse responding to uniquely different situations with no facility for editing, its self-referencing and contradictions-free, the styles of recitation, etc), then the possibility of coincidence become infinitely small if it were just an ordinary book written by one fully illiterate man in a desert of arabia 1,400 years ago.

A comparison with other books claimed to have originated from God would be good, or with any other book in history for that matter.

That's an interesting perspective. To me, the Quran does not possess any sort of 'timeless' guidance; I think man made theories offer better political & and moral guidance. I don't know if it is 100% preserved, but if it is, then good for the Arabs; their ability to preserve oral tradition should be commended. The Quran might not have any contradictions (though some people certainly disagree) but neither does Harry Potter. So to me, the possibility that the Quran coincidentally got that right is much higher than the possibility that it was a miracle.

 

[SalamChristian]

Peace Lynx,

I think man made theories offer better political & and moral guidance

which ones? I have considered this question thoroughly, and I am open to hearing new information.

The important point for me is that Jesus taught that you must forgive others of their sins/debts/shortcomings in order for your own sins/debts/shortcomings to be forgiven, and that, if you do this, you will have eternal life. As well, the point about submitting yourself completely to God is important to me--that is another way of saying let your ego go and accept the truth as it is shown to you. I don't know of anyone in the history of mankind who said this before Jesus. And, as far as moral advice goes, this has been pure gold in helping me make good, mature decisions.

Peace

 

[SalamChristian]

I don't know of anyone in the history of mankind who said this before Jesus.

anyone who said all of these things, that is. But piecemeal they are important too, specifically the forgiveness of hamartia for hamartia to be forgiven part.

 

[Lynx]

Peace Lynx,



which ones? I have considered this question thoroughly, and I am open to hearing new information.

The important point for me is that Jesus taught that you must forgive others of their sins/debts/shortcomings in order for your own sins/debts/shortcomings to be forgiven, and that, if you do this, you will have eternal life. As well, the point about submitting yourself completely to God is important to me--that is another way of saying let your ego go and accept the truth as it is shown to you. I don't know of anyone in the history of mankind who said this before Jesus. And, as far as moral advice goes, this has been pure gold in helping me make good, mature decisions.

Peace

Hi, this is an off-topic discussion. If you'd like you can start a new thread and I will answer your questions there.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Oh ok. It was A MIRACLE, THAT makes it ALL BETTER. No, it doesnt. It is still a scientific inaccuracy regardless of your whining and moaning. You can't change science so that it fits your narrow mind. A human understanding insects is scientifically inaccurate and an appeal to the unknown does not make it anymore accurate or cloaking it with "oh its a miracle" does not make it any more accurate either. Yes, I do dispute ALL OF THAT. The Christians were keen enough to disregard those ridiculous anecdotes as symbolism in the face of reason but it appears that not only Islamic countries are a thousand years behind but so are its adherents with their ridiculous fantasy stories.

yea yea muslims are thousand years behind. and you are?

 

[Ramadhan]

Unfortunately I cannot post links due to my limited posting. It only takes a google search and some common sense to realize that people speculating that animals can communicate is not such a great feat.

If it were not such a great feat, then why were atheists, not 2,000 years ago but just a few years back, gloating that Qur'an was totally incorrect for mentioning that ants talk?

Whats up with Muslims and angels and jinns? Do you guys actually have the mental capacity of children? You believe in jack and the beanstalk as well?

We have material evidenc that the creator exist because the creation exist.
Did jack and the beanstalk ever claim that they exist?
This kind of childish comparisons is what made discussions with atheist not worthwhile.

Again, I do not care if you believe I am an ex-Muslim or not. You seem to be caught up on that fact, ok I will make it easier for you, I am not an ex-Muslim, don't believe me. Now we can move on.

Then why did you have to lie in the first place?
Did your belief compel you to do that?

I don't take science as my bible considering I do not claim no absolute truths.

Despite your plea, you do take science as your bible, proven by everything that have written in this thread so far.
Your yardstick has been: if it cannot be proven by current science, then it is false.
And I have shown the ridiculousness of your stance by giving an example of atheists who few years back convinced that ants do not talk.

 

[Ramadhan]

My point is that the originator did not actually *know* that ants could talk. Old stories are full of talking animals; if it turns out that some of those animals do possess the ability to talk, are you going to conclude each of those authors had miraculous knowledge?

I understood your point in the first place, and in fact I agreed with you that, at a glance, possibility of coincidence cannot be discounted. That is, until we take all aspects of the qur'an into account.
Do you also not agree, that picking ants as being able to talk was a very bold move, considering there were a whole thousands of other animals at that time which were proven to actually emit sounds and observed as having communicated with each other (dogs, cats, wolves, camels, goats, crows, etc). So why not talking camels for example? Why picking ants who, no one knew for sure until a few years could actually talk
Remember, from the very first inception,unlike any other books ever in the history of mankind, the Qur'an was already claimed by prophet Muhammad SAW to have originated from God and hence consciously, there could not have been error made.

And yes, I am comparing the story to something you see in a fairytale because, as others in this thread have mentioned, ants would not converse about people's names as this is a complicated thought process that an ant surely does not possess. Ants don't talk like humans but the Quran seems to think they do. I hope the point is clear.

I admit that this another part of the Qur'an that I will have to just accept. Just like many parts of the Quran where Allah has told stories of miraculous events.
But for other facts in the Qur'an that science more and more have shown to be true, they only deepen and strengthen my belief.

That's an interesting perspective. To me, the Quran does not possess any sort of 'timeless' guidance; I think man made theories offer better political & and moral guidance. I don't know if it is 100% preserved, but if it is, then good for the Arabs; their ability to preserve oral tradition should be commended.

Just because you do not like a system does not mean that system is not timeless, but let's explore some facts so we can be more objective:
Tell me if there is another (single) person in the whole history of mankind apart from prophet Muhammad SAW that has created a complete guidance of political, economics, finance, personal and public/communal health, spirituality, military and war, statehood, community relations, marriage and family affairs, personal issues from birth to death, etc that are applicable in all time in all region and for all people?
There are millions people now in the world, ranging from a software engineer in London to a subsistence farmer in Indonesia, who are completely following Qur'an and sunnah, this more than 1,400 years after Islam inception. Remember that Qur'an and sunnah completely originated, proven as far as you and I know, from one single illiterate man in a desert in arabia in 600s.
Now, let me know if there's a comparable system.

. The Quran might not have any contradictions (though some people certainly disagree) but neither does Harry Potter. So to me, the possibility that the Quran coincidentally got that right is much higher than the possibility that it was a miracle.

It is clear that you have not read Harry Potter books, for if you have, you would have definitely known that there hundreds loopholes, contradictions, inconsistencies and errors inside EVERY book, let alone the flow between stories/books.
I am quite embarrassed to admit that I have read all HP books, at least twice for each book, so I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Lynx]

I understood your point in the first place, and in fact I agreed with you that, at a glance, possibility of coincidence cannot be discounted. That is, until we take all aspects of the qur'an into account.
Do you also not agree, that picking ants as being able to talk was a very bold move, considering there were a whole thousands of other animals at that time which were proven to actually emit sounds and observed as having communicated with each other (dogs, cats, wolves, camels, goats, crows, etc). So why not talking camels for example? Why picking ants who, no one knew for sure until a few years could actually talk
Remember, from the very first inception,unlike any other books ever in the history of mankind, the Qur'an was already claimed by prophet Muhammad SAW to have originated from God and hence consciously, there could not have been error made.



I admit that this another part of the Qur'an that I will have to just accept. Just like many parts of the Quran where Allah has told stories of miraculous events.
But for other facts in the Qur'an that science more and more have shown to be true, they only deepen and strengthen my belief.

I don't know about any scientific miracles. All the 'miracles' I ever read about were either discovered earlier than the Quran or are vague. Moreover, there are verses that aren't doing too well against scientific scrutiny such as the whole Adam and Eve story. In this particular verse, the author thought that ants were rational creatures because he was not aware of how the brain works. I mean I am putting my money on this explanation; if it was truly a miracle, this inaccuracy wouldn't be here for the non-believers to exploit. I'd expect from a lucky guess/fluke that a mistake would accompany it.

Just because you do not like a system does not mean that system is not timeless, but let's explore some facts so we can be more objective:
Tell me if there is another (single) person in the whole history of mankind apart from prophet Muhammad SAW that has created a complete guidance of political, economics, finance, personal and public/communal health, spirituality, military and war, statehood, community relations, marriage and family affairs, personal issues from birth to death, etc that are applicable in all time in all region and for all people?
There are millions people now in the world, ranging from a software engineer in London to a subsistence farmer in Indonesia, who are completely following Qur'an and sunnah, this more than 1,400 years after Islam inception. Remember that Qur'an and sunnah completely originated, proven as far as you and I know, from one single illiterate man in a desert in arabia in 600s.
Now, let me know if there's a comparable system.

Well I am not sure what we mean by timeless to be honest. We could theoretically turn all countries in Shariah based countries at any point. We could also apply Hammurabi's code at any point. When I say timeless I guess I mean something that, in the course of time, is better than other things or stands on par with other things. Shariah, IMO, has a lot going for it but I think it lacks in women's rights; it doesn't really offer much detail in economic theory; the secular system is better than it when it comes to plurastic societies; its marriage laws are odd, and possibly inconsistent; its murder laws are a derivative of tribal customs which is unnecessary and leads to problems; there are philosophical and theological problems in Islam, etc... The guy before you kind of asked a similar question and I told him, as I am telling you that if you want a detailed discussion you might want to start a different thread.

It's my humble opinion that if any of the current organized religions were 'true' it would mean our understanding of 'logic' has been in SERIOUS error ever since Aristotle uttered his first syllogism. But the point is while you think the miracle in the ants verse is consistent with the great quality of the Quran, I think we should look twice before claiming any verse from any religious scripture is miraculous for the very reason that there are so many other problems in these religions that I highly doubt such a miracle could be produced.

It is clear that you have not read Harry Potter books, for if you have, you would have definitely known that there hundreds loopholes, contradictions, inconsistencies and errors inside EVERY book, let alone the flow between stories/books.
I am quite embarrassed to admit that I have read all HP books, at least twice for each book, so I know what I'm talking about.

edit: i was going to ask you to list a contradiction for every book I listed but I won't pester you with an impossible task. Obviously you haven't read every single book out there and I could probably name a handful of books that are contradiction or 'error' (whatever that means) free that you will never read. Your claim is meaningless as you have no evidence for it, but ^above are 'errors' or 'inadequacies' that i find in Quran/sunnah

 

[- Qatada -]

Anyone noticed how lynx keeps saying "I don't know" , "IMO" [In my Opinion], "It's my humble opinion", reccurringly?


This shows her lack of knowledge and understanding on the issues she attempts to point out, and then expects people to accept such statements as fact.

Not really intellectual is it?

 

[جوري]

Anyone noticed how lynx keeps saying "I don't know" , "IMO" [In my Opinion], "It's my humble opinion", reccurringly? This shows her lack of knowledge and understanding on the issues she attempts to point out, and then expects people to accept such statements as fact. Not really intellectual is it?

I have pointed that out on various posts.. the fellow hastily googles anything that contradicts anything that is written just to hold a polar view whether the principal itself is right or wrong it really doesn't matter... and in the process on several occasions, he has proven the exact opposite of what he wanted because shamefully he doesn't even bother read in totality the articles he wants to present as contradictory evidence .. he is a pseudo intellect and very representative of the arrogant & highly under educated society he lives in!

 

[Dagless]

Just because you do not like a system does not mean that system is not timeless, but let's explore some facts so we can be more objective:
Tell me if there is another (single) person in the whole history of mankind apart from prophet Muhammad SAW that has created a complete guidance of political, economics, finance, personal and public/communal health, spirituality, military and war, statehood, community relations, marriage and family affairs, personal issues from birth to death, etc that are applicable in all time in all region and for all people?
There are millions people now in the world, ranging from a software engineer in London to a subsistence farmer in Indonesia, who are completely following Qur'an and sunnah, this more than 1,400 years after Islam inception. Remember that Qur'an and sunnah completely originated, proven as far as you and I know, from one single illiterate man in a desert in arabia in 600s.
Now, let me know if there's a comparable system.

This really puts things into perspective. I've never seen a system which is comparable in even ONE of the fields you've mentioned.

 

[Perseveranze]

yea yea muslims are thousand years behind. and you are? you leech, how many scientific papers you have published? you are a burden on mother earth, kill yourself.

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Calm down brother...

People like this come all the time, you know this.

 

[Lynx]

Anyone noticed how lynx keeps saying "I don't know" , "IMO" [In my Opinion], "It's my humble opinion", reccurringly?


This shows her lack of knowledge and understanding on the issues she attempts to point out, and then expects people to accept such statements as fact.

Not really intellectual is it?

Please don't derail threads. If you want to start a thread dedicated to me then I will reply there. The OP has been squashed anyway.

 

[SalamChristian]

If you want to start a thread dedicated to me then I will reply there. The OP has been squashed anyway.

This sounds to me like Charlie Sheen. Lynx, are you Charlie Sheen in real life?

 

[Dagless]

Please don't derail threads. If you want to start a thread dedicated to me then I will reply there. The OP has been squashed anyway.

Yes, every point clearly and concisely answered means the OP has been squashed :| Is that your logic? Given most of your posts in this forum it doesn't surprise me.

I don't know, IMO it seems odd that every point has been addressed with sound answers and still the atheists rant. In my humble opinion if they don't agree that's fine, but when they ignore facts time and time again they only show themselves to be 'squashed'. They give regular atheists a bad name.



<insert random philosophical quote here>

 

[Lynx]

Well it looks like the points raised by me and others were left with no reply. At least naidamar conceded that the scientific inaccuracy of the verse had no explanation and his argument that we should expect this verse to be miraculously because the rest of the Quran is miraculous is unfounded and a little question-begging. It doesn't seem like anyone else here said anything different, but you guys can live in your own world if you'd like. It's just a little creepy how this thread transformed from a discussion about scientific miracles in the Quran to a 'share your opinions on Lynx'. Of course, ad hominems are a last resort eh Qatada?

Weirdos.

 

[Ramadhan]

We could also apply Hammurabi's code at any point

Except that no one in the world is applying and following whole of Hammurabi code.
and except that Hammrubai code does not even touch the many areas in human and society life that Qur'an and Sunnah do, not to mention the many intangible qualities that Qur'an and sunnah have.

So where's a comparison to qur'an?