Is there any Christians who still pray that way?

[Danah]

Greetings everybody,

I came across this video today and thought of sharing it with everyone here especially our Christians members to know their feedback.

Is there any Christians who still pray that way? if no then why not?


Note: I am not seeking a debate here.

 

[Sol Invictus]

i haven't really double checked all the bible verses yet seeing as i'll be leaving my house soon but thought that i'd mention a few things concerning the manner in which jesus prayed, but first:

Jabir b. Samura reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The people who lift their eyes towards the sky in Prayer should avoid it or they would lose their eyesight. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 0862)

Abu Huraira reported: People should avoid lifting their eyes towards the sky while supplicating in prayer, otherwise their eyes would be snatched away. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 0863)

"Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all." Mark 6:41

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.’" John 17:1-5

"And when you STAND praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Mark 11:25 (emphasis mine)

now, christians have no problems with the way jesus prayed. christians pray bowing down, sitting up, standing up etc. and so they see all of these in the bible and have no problem with it. yet the muslim however would have a problem with these other methods of prayer. do muslims pray the lord's prayer or is it christians? do muslims call god, father? some muslims actually do but given that the qur'an is adamant that allah is a father to no one then they are actually sinning by calling him 'father'. do muslims believe that jesus was the father's son? do muslims believe that jesus shared the very glory of the father before the creation of the world? let's not just look at how jesus prayed but also at the words that he used, right?

"Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.’" John 6:35-40

if we should follow the actions of jesus then we should also follow his teachings. christians believe in the above, do muslims?

anyway, the speaker in the above video ignores the fact that jesus prayed in different ways and i'm surprised at his book of revelation quote because these very same angels later on worship jesus as he sits on the very throne of god and rules as god! so if i am to believe his quotations then i am forced to worship jesus as god! this is what is so ironic about the video. i love it actually because if we're going to take his quotes seriously then we'd be forced to worship jesus as god. sorry but you can't make the bible teach anything other than christianity. there is no changing the words of god and i thank my great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ for that.

p.s. i should mention that i've written none of this with the intent to abrasive, if it comes off that way then i apologize.

 

[PouringRain]

If you are asking if there are Christians who bow down before God in prayer-- yes.

 

[Fivesolas]

wow, that is a really bad way to use the Bible. I will write more later.

I watched some other videos from this guy. My advice to Muslims would be not to promote this man, even if he seems to agree with Islam. There are far more intellegent and reasoned videos and articles from Muslims than to use this.

 

[gmcbroom]

Funny, I did that just the other night. You see Christians or rather Catholics do pray in that manner. However, it just depends on which ritual church you follow. I had the priviledge to participate in a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy when we venerated the Cross, and Lenten celebration on Sunday and Monday and we bowed down fully on multiple occasions during it. The Eastern Orthodox do this as well. It should be noted that Catholic Deacons, Priests and Bishops do this during their ordination. The Faithful of the Latin Rite don't have too however in fact there are rules limiting which time its acceptable and when its not. During Lent, it's acceptable: however most Sundays its not as thats a day of celebrating the Lord's Resurrection . Thus it makes since why most Reformed churches don't employ it, as they didn't have to do it before since some of their founders broke from the Latin rite. Perhaps some do it as a private devotions? You'd have to ask them.

Peace be with you

 

[PouringRain]

You see Christians or rather Catholics do pray in that manner.

Protestants do also..... not making a generalized statement here about Protestants. Just indicating that it is not only within Catholic and Orthodox.

 

[gmcbroom]

I didn't mean to generalize either I hope I didn't offend anyone. I just wanted to say that I know that some do pray that way and some Don't.

 

[Sol Invictus]

wow, that is a really bad way to use the Bible. I will write more later.

I watched some other videos from this guy. My advice to Muslims would be not to promote this man, even if he seems to agree with Islam. There are far more intellegent and reasoned videos and articles from Muslims than to use this.

indeed they shouldn't--especially when his entire point (though wrong as it is) is predicated on christians supposedly not taking the bible seriously and him wanting us to. but then when this invariably leads to us worshiping jesus as god he would then have to turn around and tell us not to take the bible seriously when it commands us to honour christ in the exact same way that the father is honoured or believe that the words contained therein are from god at all. contradiction much?

 

[gmcbroom]

Well, I've listed a few where we clearly do worship in that manner. The key for us all to remember is that even if I hadn't done that in the bible says for us not to go about worshipping out in the open just so others can see us. For the Heavenly Father see us no matter where we're at or what we're doing. So we can even worship in secret and God wil know.

 

[Ramadhan]

If you are asking if there are Christians who bow down before God in prayer-- yes.

not bow down, but prostrate.

Are there christians denominations who incorporate prostration on their regular pray?

It just seems to me that it smells like arrogant if you cant even make yourself prostrate to God.
I know that christians would answer that God does not need our prostration as long as we are sincere, well I'll say that God doesn't anything from us and does not need us at all, but that does not mean we are allowed to do as we please, right?

I just find it incredible that even Jesus (p), who christians worship as God, even prostrated in his pray to God, but current christians cannot make themselves prostrate to God?

 

[Ramadhan]

but then when this invariably leads to us worshiping jesus as god he would then have to turn around and tell us not to take the bible seriously when it commands us to honour christ in the exact same way that the father is honoured or believe that the words contained therein are from god at all. contradiction much?

There are christians, such as jehovah witnesses, who don't honor and worship jesus (pbuh) as they do the father, and they believe the bible is instructive in this case.
Are you denying the bible?

 

[PouringRain]

not bow down, but prostrate.

The answer is still yes.

 

[Sol Invictus]

It just seems to me that it smells like arrogant if you cant even make yourself prostrate to God.
I know that christians would answer that God does not need our prostration as long as we are sincere, well I'll say that God doesn't anything from us and does not need us at all, but that does not mean we are allowed to do as we please, right? [...] I just find it incredible that even Jesus (p), who christians worship as God, even prostrated in his pray to God, but current christians cannot make themselves prostrate to God?

christians do in fact prostrate so your point is rendered moot. that said, according to the bible it is not necessarily the actions which one does but rather the spirit in which these are performed. god is not interested in outwardly signs of worship but rather with the inwardly. once one has prostrated with their heart (that is, in humbling themselves before god) doing so with their body is rather irrelevant and while it is a nice display of their humility it adds little to the content of their heart. it is the disposition of the heart that matters. yet once again, this point is irrelevant because the bible itself shows that jesus prayed in many ways and even commanded believers to pray standing up. so no, if we are to follow the bible then we would end up with the current practices.

(i'm too tired to do so myself but could someone tie this up with the response of jesus to the woman at the well, about worship being done "in spirit and in truth" instead of outwardly signs of custom?)

There are christians, such as jehovah witnesses, who don't honor and worship jesus (pbuh) as they do the father, and they believe the bible is instructive in this case.
Are you denying the bible?

as i recall, jw's believe that christ is "a god" but not "the God". i certainly am not denying the bible particularly when jesus himself says:

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. --- John 5:19-23 NIV

the above is quite clear in the fact that christ demands to be honoured exactly as the father is honoured.

anyway, i must reiterate my point that your argument depends on christians supposedly not taking the bible seriously which is rather ironic seeing as you don't want us to take it seriously because this then leads to jesus being worshiped. i think that if you're going to try to make an argument you should choose one that isn't contradictory to your muslim faith. you cannot maintain this argument without eventually having to be inconsistent and inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

 

[Ramadhan]

that said, according to the bible it is not necessarily the actions which one does but rather the spirit in which these are performed. god is not interested in outwardly signs of worship but rather with the inwardly. once one has prostrated with their heart (that is, in humbling themselves before god) doing so with their body is rather irrelevant and while it is a nice display of their humility it adds little to the content of their heart.

I agree because this is also my observation of christian theology: that outward actions are not important and irrelevant.
I've seen and heard this many times with christians.
I guess this is one of the differences with Islam.
In Islam, actions are as important as intentions/what's in the heart.

it is the disposition of the heart that matters. yet once again, this point is irrelevant because the bible itself shows that jesus prayed in many ways and even commanded believers to pray standing up. so no, if we are to follow the bible then we would end up with the current practices.

Your description about how Jesus pray actually fits perfectly shalah:
everything starts with intentions within heart and the disposition to submit and worship God, and the movements of shalah also incorporate all of Jesus' actions: standing up, bowing down, sitting down, prostration.

as i recall, jw's believe that christ is "a god" but not "the God". i certainly am not denying the bible particularly when jesus himself says: Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. --- John 5:19-23 NIV

I actually could not find John 5:19-23 in NWT Bible and in several other bibles.
Are you sure that John 5:19-23 exist, and not just some fabrication?

anyway, i must reiterate my point that your argument depends on christians supposedly not taking the bible seriously which is rather ironic seeing as you don't want us to take it seriously because this then leads to jesus being worshiped. i think that if you're going to try to make an argument you should choose one that isn't contradictory to your muslim faith. you cannot maintain this argument without eventually having to be inconsistent and inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

As many muslims would undoubtedly have told you many times: we believe there's till remnants of truth in gospel, and if it does not contradict the Qur'an and in confirmation with the Qur'an than we believe it is still true.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

the only form of worship i see Christians doing, is singing. no, seriously...

anyway:
Sol Invictus (replying to this post, http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...hristians-who-still-pray-way.html#post1424955 ):
Your line or argument is not consistent. The hadiths you quoted have to do with Salah (Prayer). Salah (prayer) does not mean supplicating which what you have quoted, is implying.

And then you bring up the father/son thing as an attempt to validate your argument then blame Muslims for not accepting the way Jesus prayed, as if blaming us for taking our prayer seriously.

Second, We are talking about praying….how did it change into the father/son thing?

and yes, Muslims do have a problem with these types of prayer that you mentioned because prayer in Islam, has been specified in a certain way, wherein which if this manner was not fulfilled, prayer would not be accepted and it is void. We don’t introduce things according to our own accord we hear and obey because we submit and are slaves to Allah.

if we should follow the actions of jesus then we should also follow his teachings. christians believe in the above, do muslims?

No, we don’t believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, is the son of god. isnt that obvious already.

And we don’t also believe in people who clutch onto straw-men in debate as to sow doubts in our hearts <_<

 

[Ramadhan]

The answer is still yes.

which denomination? AS far as I know the main denominations including catholics do not incorporate prostrations into their regular prayers. It's hard to prostrate with all those pews and benches and desks in the church, right?
Is there a youtube for the praying by such denomination?
I am intrigued.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I actually could not find John 5:19-23 in NWT Bible and in several other bibles.
Are you sure that John 5:19-23 exist, and not just some fabrication?

wow naidamar, are you seriously going to make this claim? i'm looking at the official watchtower website and lo and behold, john 5:19-23 is still there. now we can accuse the jw's of many things but we need not accuse them of things they clearly have not done. that said, you also claimed that you checked several other bible translations and couldn't find this passage within them, can you please give us the names of these translations or else i would be forced to believe that you have been deceiving on the matter.

Your description about how Jesus pray actually fits perfectly shalah:
everything starts with intentions within heart and the disposition to submit and worship God, and the movements of shalah also incorporate all of Jesus' actions: standing up, bowing down, sitting down, prostration.

now that is rather interesting naidamar. as i understand it, these movements in salah are a continuous process that one engages in during a certain time. by that i mean that it is not salah if an individual stands up and prays, and then a couple of hours later prays sitting down, then maybe the next day he prays while prostrated etc. i'm sure that we're in agreement on this point and so i find it quite strange how you can go on to claim that christ was participating in salah when these instances of bowing, praying while standing up, etc. are all concerning different events. can you please look within scripture and find us an instance when christ performs all these actions during the same event? if you are unable to do so, will you still claim that contrary to any evidence, christ in the bible is still performing the salah? i'm very interested because to me that really looks like trying to interpret the text in order to say something it doesn't.

Your line or argument is not consistent. The hadiths you quoted have to do with Salah (Prayer). Salah (prayer) does not mean supplicating which what you have quoted, is implying.

prayer and supplication aren't two different things. supplication is a form of prayer. thats aid, i haven't grasped your point and i would very much liek it if you could elaborate on this in your next post.

And then you bring up the father/son thing as an attempt to validate your argument then blame Muslims for not accepting the way Jesus prayed, as if blaming us for taking our prayer seriously.

not exactly. the muslim claim is that christians are not following the example of christ by supposedly not praying in the manner that he did. if we are to look to jesus as our example then shouldn't we also look at what he said? if not, why not? if we look at what he said then we see that he spoke in a manner that no muslim would agree with but that the christian certainly does not have any problems with. if then the muslim argument is dependent on trying to make christians adhere to the teachings of christ in the bible (given that the video consists of nothing but citations from the bible) then we should also follow the words spoken by christ.

Second, We are talking about praying….how did it change into the father/son thing?

once again it is because of the fact that if we are to follow the actions of christ, we must also follow the words of christ.

and yes, Muslims do have a problem with these types of prayer that you mentioned because prayer in Islam, has been specified in a certain way, wherein which if this manner was not fulfilled, prayer would not be accepted and it is void. We don’t introduce things according to our own accord we hear and obey because we submit and are slaves to Allah.

it is wonderful that you adhere to the commandments of the muslim deity, one ought only to follow that which they believe to be true. that said, you prove my point by taking issue with the other ways in which jesus is known as having prayed. look, the entire muslim argument was that seeing as jesus was recorded as bowing down in the bible, christians are not being faithful to him by not bowing down as well but given that jesus prayed inmany different ways and is recorded to telling his adherers to stand up while praying and you yourself claiming that you can't agree to these other methods of prayer, your position is shown to be one of inconsistency. the muslim position was never one of trying to get christians to follow the manner in which jesus prayed in the bible seeing as the text is clear that he prayed in different ways at different times (and christians are known as praying in all those different ways at different places around the world at different times and as such, they really do follow the example of christ) but rather of trying to get the christian to perform salah while there is no warrant for it at all within the bible.

And we don’t also believe in people who clutch onto straw-men in debate as to sow doubts in our hearts

i'm sorry, it was never my intention to cause you to doubt but if merely showing how the muslim position is one of inconsistency in this regard, ends up causing you to doubt then you might want to reexamine your own faith.

 

[Ramadhan]

wow naidamar, are you seriously going to make this claim? i'm looking at the official watchtower website and lo and behold, john 5:19-23 is still there. .

My bad. I misread it as 1 John.

now that is rather interesting naidamar. as i understand it, these movements in salah are a continuous process that one engages in during a certain time. by that i mean that it is not salah if an individual stands up and prays, and then a couple of hours later prays sitting down, then maybe the next day he prays while prostrated etc.

Let me ask you:
Was Jesus (pbuh) a jew or christian?
(a) Did he go to his nearest church in Jerusalem, ate bread and drink wine, and started singing to the top of his lungs and swaying his hips while throwing his hands up in the air southern church-style?
(b) Or did he go to the temple where there's no benches, pews, desks, crosses, statues, podiums, images, what-have-you, and prayed like any other pious God-fearing jews at that time?

So how do orthodox jews pray according to tanakh and talmud?

Let's watch these videos shall we:

It seems to me that ancient jews would also pray very similar to shalah.

 

[Danah]

Peace everyone,

which denomination? AS far as I know the main denominations including catholics do not incorporate prostrations into their regular prayers. It's hard to prostrate with all those pews and benches and desks in the church, right?
Is there a youtube for the praying by such denomination?
I am intrigued.

I am interested in knowing that as well.
Thanks PouringRain for your answers here.

prayer and supplication aren't two different things. supplication is a form of prayer.

Allow me to clarify this for you please, prayer as a general term means supplications or asking God for something to be granted. In Islam they use the term "praying" because its the most fitting English word for the Arabic word salah but what we are doing is not literally praying, rather its worshiping.

If we are talking about supplication then we use the Arabic word "duaa" which means supplicating or asking Allah for something, but you will find many people who use the word "prayer" instead.

Yeah you will tell me that supplication is a kind of worship too, I agree with that, but we as Muslims can pray (supplicate) to Allah any time in any place at any situation. But if we want to worship Allah meaning that we want to perform salah we need to fulfill some other conditions before like performing ablution, wearing proper clothes, find a good quiet clean place to perform it.

So, salah means worship while duaa means supplications....but the term "prayer" is used to explain both of them.


I hope that clarify the issue to you

Let's watch these videos shall we:

Interesting videos, thanks for sharing...I remember watching the second video and was very impressed that they are still praying that way.

 

[Daniel Hoseiny]

The Eastern Orthodox do this as well.

Right!:statisfie

Is there any Christians who still pray that way?

The attitudes of adorations among the early Christians were borrowed, as one would expect, from the Jews; an instance of how minutely the Jewish custom was followed is seen in Tertullian’s description of Christian worship, given in the Corona Militis iii. He says that on Sunday and the whole week of the festival of Pentecost, prayer was not to be said kneeling. This is thoroughly in accordance with Jewish presedent, for the synagogal custom (minhag), as old as the first Christian century, omits the prostrations on festivals and semi-festivals.
From: Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, part 1 by James Hastings

This is what Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220 AD) wrote:
On the Lord's day we account it unlawful to fast or to worship upon the knees 37. We enjoy the same freedom from Easter Day even unto Pentecost 38. We feel pained if any of the wine, or even of our bread 39, be spilled upon the ground. |165 In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting on our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our forehead with the sign 40 of the cross.
h t t p: //w w w .tertullian.org/lfc/LFC10-11_de_corona.htm

As you can see the practice of prostration is as ancient as the Christianity itself and is still practiced by (Orthodox) Christians (also by other Christians as it was stated before).

which denomination? AS far as I know the main denominations including catholics do not incorporate prostrations into their regular prayers. It's hard to prostrate with all those pews and benches and desks in the church, right?
Is there a youtube for the praying by such denomination?
I am intrigued.

Please visit this (Copy, correct and paste the following URL into your browser):
h t t p : / /w w w .youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y&feature=related