Wanting some clarification on website I've come across

Saffy786 said:
[FONT=&quot]Hi,
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] And What about their interpretation of that Quranic verse( about how the muscles are formed before the bones, but the Quran contradicts it, something along those lines)? This site is kinda confusing to me, and I just wanted some clarification. And then it goes onto talk about the 5 stages or so of development ( about the blood clots etc), is that correct? I read that Zakir Naik had a widely publicised debate( which he supposedly won) with Dr. William Campbell on this issue. It states that the 5 stages of development were common knowledge prior to the revelation of the Quran. But I dont think that is true, and the site seems to me to be a hate attack against Islam. But I was just wanting some clarification thats why.

Thanks
Click to expand...


:salamext:


Bones grow first in the embryo or muscles?

Given that the formation of muscle and bone are complex, multistep processes, I am not sure that it is very meaningful to ask which takes place first. We might define the first step in "bone formation" as the first expression of Cbfa1 (now Runx2) in mice. This gene is necessary for the determination of osteoblasts. Yet this occurs in an embryo in which there is already a cartilagenous model of the bone. Why wouldn't that be the first step in bone formation?

Similarly, we might define the first step in "muscle formation" as the expression of the muscle- specific bHLH (basic helix-loop-helix) proteins like MyoD, or the first fusions of myoblasts to form myotubes.

Depending on how we define the first step in muscle and bone formation, we will get different answers on which occurs first.

Paul Szauter
Mouse Genome Informatics
Reference: Scott F. Gilbert Developmental Biology, 6th Edition Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates; 2000.
​
So scientists presently are in disagreement, but since the Qur'an is correct in so many other ways scientifically, maybe scientists will prove in the future that bones come first before muscle?


Besides;
Just as the Qur'anic text suggests: فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا - then We created the Mudghah into bones THEN covered the bones in flesh. The 'Fa' which is 'translated' as 'then' shows that this happens simultaneously after that. ie. A happens then suddenly B happens. This is what the 'Fa' implies.

So the Qur'anic description itself recognises that both grow at a similar time and close to each other in sequence.




​
 
Last edited:
Human embryology is quite complex. What you have happening is the almost simultaneous development of several systems. You need to look at the skeletal system, Muscular system, nervous system, endocrine system, Blood system, lymph system etc as all forming separately. It is a wonder that they all end up coordinated into being a single human being.

I am not even going to attempt to prove what happens, when or how. I simply find it is a marvel that the Qur'an does agree the bones and muscles are initially separate.
 
Lux et veritas said:
Hi,

Dont mind me asking but you appear a firm believer, so did you read the whole of the article of the topic and there isnt a single truth in it? I see all the videos posted and the websites listed as proofs and I must say I agree with them. So the conclusion is, everything in the article of the OP is false/inaccurate? It has all been disproven, once you've gone through all of it?

Thanks, just out of curiosity:)

P.s sorry I had to delete the links because of my recent membership, Why is that?
Click to expand...

Peace,

Yeah, for a good few months I used to just go through websites like that, I used to find the sources they were using and see if there's a refutation for it. For many sites you find they just copy one another, twist interpretations (like they use unique translations that aren't in agreement with the other 14 or so other translations), they never consider looking into the root meaning of the words (shows the little understanding they have) and in some cases the hadiths they use they re-word it or use different words so it's harder for someone to google that hadith and find a refutation of it. Many other inconsistencies and issues, but everything I've come accross i've been able to see a logical refutation for it (i still look around every now and then).

Point is, kinda sad people fall for inaccurate and biased sites like these, really is. I just hope they do what I did and do a in-depth research into it, rather then just take what their initial understanding of it is. Afterall... The Quran challenges man to falsify it, to go as deep into it as you like to find an error, but no one's succeeded yet :) The moment someone does, Islam would fall, for 1400 years intellectual scholars/historians have tried, many who failed end up reverting or in every case end up admitting the mystery behind this book. I suggest you read the book "The Amazing Quran".
 
Ibn AL Qayyim was a scholar of Islam who came around 400-500 years after Prophet Muhammad. So if ibn al Qayyim consulted greek physicians, or even made mistakes - that does not make Islam questionable in the least.
 
Perseveranze said:
Peace,

Yeah, for a good few months I used to just go through websites like that, I used to find the sources they were using and see if there's a refutation for it. For many sites you find they just copy one another, twist interpretations (like they use unique translations that aren't in agreement with the other 14 or so other translations), they never consider looking into the root meaning of the words (shows the little understanding they have) and in some cases the hadiths they use they re-word it or use different words so it's harder for someone to google that hadith and find a refutation of it. Many other inconsistencies and issues, but everything I've come accross i've been able to see a logical refutation for it (i still look around every now and then).

Point is, kinda sad people fall for inaccurate and biased sites like these, really is. I just hope they do what I did and do a in-depth research into it, rather then just take what their initial understanding of it is. Afterall... The Quran challenges man to falsify it, to go as deep into it as you like to find an error, but no one's succeeded yet :) The moment someone does, Islam would fall, for 1400 years intellectual scholars/historians have tried, many who failed end up reverting or in every case end up admitting the mystery behind this book. I suggest you read the book "The Amazing Quran".
Click to expand...

Assalaamu Alaykum again brother,

I've reposted in this old-ish thread i need your help brother. I don't know what's going wrong with me but lately i've been having all sorts of doubts that something in this article( which I originally posted in the first post) is true and therefore Islam is wrong. I don't know why I've suddenly been getting these doubts and feeling like this lately, but its causing me a lot of grief and distress. I feel as though even though we had gone through all the proofs against their statements, something in that article is true. Recently I've been diagnosed with mild OCD and anxiety disorder by my GP and I think this is contributing to it. These thoughts aren't letting me focus on my exam revision properly, and for some reason no matter how many times I try to reassure myself that there is nothing true in that article and everything is false, the doubts keep coming back. They make me continually question myself everytime they come. I think I've had black magic done on me, my parents think so too( I haven't told them about this problem being discussed here), but they were a bit worried about my medical diagnosis.

Please could you advise me and reassure me that the complete article is a farce, and help me brother I don't know what's going on in my head and I really need help.

My parents are great Alhamdulillah but I don't want to discuss this with them at all, and they think my Mental health problems are easier to solve than I think. I'm trying my best to battle through everyday, but as I've said in this post these current doubts and thoughts are really making me worried. How can I get over this, I feel trapped in my mind.

Sincerely asking for help/advice, wa' alaikumusalaam. Sorry to burden my problem on you but please help me where you can, I would appreciate it so much right now.
 
said:
And What about their interpretation of that Quranic verse( about how the muscles are formed before the bones, but the Quran contradicts it, something along those lines)?
Click to expand...


It is mentioned in the Qur'an:

فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا

"Then we made out of that chewed-like substance bones" (Surah Al-Mu 'minun, Ayah 14)

Accordingly the stage which follows the Mudghah stage will be called the bones (Izam) stage for the same reason.

The anlage of the skeleton which formed in the embryo during the "Mudghah stage" (between 25-40 days) transforms into cartilaginous models indicating the shape of future bones. Thus, the shape of the embryo changes from ''Mudghah shape" to one determined by the form of the skeleton. The embryo is now in the Bones (Izam) stage.


http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...uran-plagiarise-ancient-greek-embryology.html
 
- Qatada - said:
It is mentioned in the Qur'an:

فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا

"Then we made out of that chewed-like substance bones" (Surah Al-Mu 'minun, Ayah 14)

Accordingly the stage which follows the Mudghah stage will be called the bones (Izam) stage for the same reason.

The anlage of the skeleton which formed in the embryo during the "Mudghah stage" (between 25-40 days) transforms into cartilaginous models indicating the shape of future bones. Thus, the shape of the embryo changes from ''Mudghah shape" to one determined by the form of the skeleton. The embryo is now in the Bones (Izam) stage.
Click to expand...

Sorry bro I'm a little confused by this post, are you saying here the bones and muscles form at a similar time here ?
 
asalaamu alaykum wARahmatullah waBarakaatuh


Yes that is possible. And Allah knows best.
 
Saffy786 said:
Assalaamu Alaykum again brother,

I've reposted in this old-ish thread i need your help brother. I don't know what's going wrong with me but lately i've been having all sorts of doubts that something in this article( which I originally posted in the first post) is true and therefore Islam is wrong. I don't know why I've suddenly been getting these doubts and feeling like this lately, but its causing me a lot of grief and distress. I feel as though even though we had gone through all the proofs against their statements, something in that article is true. Recently I've been diagnosed with mild OCD and anxiety disorder by my GP and I think this is contributing to it. These thoughts aren't letting me focus on my exam revision properly, and for some reason no matter how many times I try to reassure myself that there is nothing true in that article and everything is false, the doubts keep coming back. They make me continually question myself everytime they come. I think I've had black magic done on me, my parents think so too( I haven't told them about this problem being discussed here), but they were a bit worried about my medical diagnosis.

Please could you advise me and reassure me that the complete article is a farce, and help me brother I don't know what's going on in my head and I really need help.

My parents are great Alhamdulillah but I don't want to discuss this with them at all, and they think my Mental health problems are easier to solve than I think. I'm trying my best to battle through everyday, but as I've said in this post these current doubts and thoughts are really making me worried. How can I get over this, I feel trapped in my mind.

Sincerely asking for help/advice, wa' alaikumusalaam. Sorry to burden my problem on you but please help me where you can, I would appreciate it so much right now.
Click to expand...

Asalaamu Alaikum, brother why are you referring to anti-Islamic websites when it is knowledge of Islam that you should be concentrating in trying to gain? You should not refer to these kinds of websites especially if you do not have adequate knowledge of Islam otherwise they will just put baseless doubts and waswas into your head. There is no good in referring to such websites and you will only to yourself harm rather than any good. You must stop referring to such websites immediatley and start gaining basic knowledge of Islam and slowly vuild your way up. Concentrate on doing everything to please Allah and refrain from anything which displeases him.

Do you think that anti-Islamic websites such as this are going to say good things about Islam? They were created ONLY to try and prove they are right but let me tell you this until this very day NOT one single verses has been proven wrong but the scientific miracles which Allah talks about are relevant until this very day and it also proves the divinity of the Qur'an that 1400 years ago an illiterate man could NEVER have known the things that are written in the Qur'an many of which have only been discovered recently.

Refer to the following for your own knowledge and information and please stop referring to anti-Islamic websites and concetrate in increasing your own knowledge of Islam and closeness to your creator.

Firstly here is the refutation of the false and incorrect misleading information you have read in that anti-Islamic wesbite:

A Muslim Answer To Criticism Of: Embryology in the Qur'an

http://www.answering-christianity.com/nadeem_embryology.htm

Here are some wonderful resources for you to look at:

Science proves Quran is from Allah

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=39357


Amazing clips of Scientists who converted to Islam

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=41442

This is for your waswas problem:

How to overcome Waswas (shaythans whispers)

http://www.islamicboard.com/manners...ercome-waswas-shaythans-whispers-worship.html


Here are links to other good resources:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=44392


And Allah knows best in all matters
 
Last edited:
Hamza81 said:
Asalaamu Alaikum, brother why are you referring to anti-Islamic websites when it is knowledge of Islam that you should be concentrating in trying to gain? You should not refer to these kinds of websites especially if you do not have adequate knowledge of Islam otherwise they will just put baseless doubts and waswas into your head. There is no good in referring to such websites and you will only to yourself harm rather than any good. You must stop referring to such websites immediatley and start gaining basic knowledge of Islam and slowly vuild your way up. Concentrate on doing everything to please Allah and refrain from anything which displeases him.

Do you think that anti-Islamic websites such as this are going to say good things about Islam? They were created ONLY to try and prove they are right but let me tell you this until this very day NOT one single verses has been proven wrong but the scientific miracles which Allah talks about are relevant until this very day and it also proves the divinity of the Qur'an that 1400 years ago an illiterate man could NEVER have known the things that are written in the Qur'an many of which have only been discovered recently.

Refer to the following for your own knowledge and information and please stop referring to anti-Islamic websites and concetrate in increasing your own knowledge of Islam and closeness to your creator.

Firstly here is the refutation of the false and incorrect misleading information you have read in that anti-Islamic wesbite:

A Muslim Answer To Criticism Of: Embryology in the Qur'an


Here are some wonderful resources for you to look at:

Science proves Quran is from Allah




Amazing clips of Scientists who converted to Islam



This is for your waswas problem:

How to overcome Waswas (shaythans whispers)




Here are links to other good resources:




And Allah knows best in all matters
Click to expand...

Jazak Allah for your reply. Insha Allah I will have a look at all these sources soon. I've got exams soon so trying to revise for them. I was on this student forum and the topic was on ' Did the Quran ever change?' and one person posted saying that:

"I meant that the scribes sought out ancient knowledge from the Greeks and the Egyptians and proceeded to make of it as if Allah had inspired or revealed it through the prophet Mohammed(PBUH)"

To which a person replied:

"Muhammad was illiterate, he didnt research ancient Greeks or Egyptians. He was a shephard.
Also, there were many versions of that knowledge mixed in with many fairytales. How/why would he or his companions have picked out only the correct parts and ignored the idea that the Sun was pulled across the sky by a chariot? In the 23 years that it took for the Quran to be complete? "

and then to this, the original poster replied saying:

"In order to legitimise Mohammed's divine revelations, it was asserted that he could not write. The Christians did the same with Zachariahs when he became mute. Revelations entered the picture. An angel appeared and lo and behold. "

I know that Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, so here the person is in the wrong. Do you know anything about his second sentence( about Zacharia becoming mute and the Bible was made up)?

I'm an interested in these comparative religion topics and yet I go into these threads with not much knowledge hence why I start getting confused and questioning stuff!! Maybe I shouldn't go in these threads in future I think!

Jazak Allah for your help
 
Saffy786 said:
Jazak Allah for your reply. Insha Allah I will have a look at all these sources soon. I've got exams soon so trying to revise for them. I was on this student forum and the topic was on ' Did the Quran ever change?' and one person posted saying that:

"I meant that the scribes sought out ancient knowledge from the Greeks and the Egyptians and proceeded to make of it as if Allah had inspired or revealed it through the prophet Mohammed(PBUH)"

To which a person replied:

"Muhammad was illiterate, he didnt research ancient Greeks or Egyptians. He was a shephard.
Also, there were many versions of that knowledge mixed in with many fairytales. How/why would he or his companions have picked out only the correct parts and ignored the idea that the Sun was pulled across the sky by a chariot? In the 23 years that it took for the Quran to be complete? "

and then to this, the original poster replied saying:

"In order to legitimise Mohammed's divine revelations, it was asserted that he could not write. The Christians did the same with Zachariahs when he became mute. Revelations entered the picture. An angel appeared and lo and behold. "

I know that Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, so here the person is in the wrong. Do you know anything about his second sentence( about Zacharia becoming mute and the Bible was made up)?

I'm an interested in these comparative religion topics and yet I go into these threads with not much knowledge hence why I start getting confused and questioning stuff!! Maybe I shouldn't go in these threads in future I think!

Jazak Allah for your help
Click to expand...
maybe what the person is writing was made up by his friends to seem like that he is actually writing it. Really, can you trust anyone?
 
mad_scientist said:
maybe what the person is writing was made up by his friends to seem like that he is actually writing it. Really, can you trust anyone?
Click to expand...

Sorry for getting back to you late. Maybe you're right

Here is the direction to go on the thread, since I can't post links due to my new membership status:

Type in 'thestudentroom.co.uk' and in the top right corner in the search box, if you type in 'Did the Quran ever change?' and then click on the thread on the results page, which is titled the same( 'Did the Quran ever change?' ). There is the discussion I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your views on the things that have been discussed here, if you have any lol
 
:salamext:


saffy, if your emaan is shakey already - then you shouldn't be entering into these discussions in the first place. Alot of the people who reply themselves are ignorant atheists and since debate is about how arrogant you are - then that shows its not worth going there.
 
Saffy786 said:
Sorry for getting back to you late. Maybe you're right

Here is the direction to go on the thread, since I can't post links due to my new membership status:

Type in 'thestudentroom.co.uk' and in the top right corner in the search box, if you type in 'Did the Quran ever change?' and then click on the thread on the results page, which is titled the same( 'Did the Quran ever change?' ). There is the discussion I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your views on the things that have been discussed here, if you have any lol
Click to expand...


Do you know Arabic language? If no, then how can you discuss whether Quran has changed or not? Or are you an expert in Arabic language and have studied the ancient copies of Quran and published a research article about it? If yes, then let me read it too as I want to believe you that Quran has changed!
 
Saffy786 said:
Sorry for getting back to you late. Maybe you're right Here is the direction to go on the thread, since I can't post links due to my new membership status: Type in 'thestudentroom.co.uk' and in the top right corner in the search box, if you type in 'Did the Quran ever change?' and then click on the thread on the results page, which is titled the same( 'Did the Quran ever change?' ). There is the discussion I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your views on the things that have been discussed here, if you have any lol
Click to expand...

In the comparative religion section you also posted question from the website where the atheists accused the scribes of the qur'an copied from indian/persian etc.
The most simple and true way to answer: tell them to produce evidence.
They wouldnt be able, because there's not even one single evidence that point to such thing.
 
Perseveranze said:
Peace Saffy786,

Here are refutations to both. I still don't get why someone is using the plagurism accussation, despite it being refuted many times, someone is desperate.

Anyways, regarding the bones before flesh accussation, please read this -

Regarding the embroylogy plagurism accusation (refuted heavily), please read this (it's a long read but after you'll hopefully appreciate the miracle even more)
Click to expand...

Assalaamu-alaykum,

Hope you are well brother, InshAllah. I wanted to ask you for help. I have been having worries/doubts/confusions again( about the original website in the first post) for the past few weeks. They keep coming and going, and they're all regarding this website. It still makes me so anxious/worried/concerned. I don't know what's happening to me, but I just cannot get this website out of my head. I still am concerned that something is true on that site, astagfirullah. Whenever my mind is idle, it sways back to this thought, and it never lets me live in peace. I had sent you a post before, if you look a few posts previously, with the same problem.

How can I make myself SURE/CERTAIN/100% (!!!!!) that there is nothing of significance on this website, and EVERYTHING ON IT IS A LIE? I feel my imaan is so weak at the moment, and I just cannot say "NO!" to that horrible, dread-inducing website. As bad as all that sounds, please help me brother, please reassure me so I can finally relax.

I am really looking forward to your reply and advice, because I want to forget about this site once and for all, and become certain without a shadow of a doubt that it is ALL A FARCE!! I really wish I never found that site in the first place! I am just waiting for your reply and reassurances. At times, I feel more confident and at others the doubts/worries keep coming back. Hence why it is so distressing for me.

All I want to know is that this website( the original one I mentioned in the first post) is all lies and develop confidence and belief in that!

JazakAllah for your help and advice brother, please reply quickly. I hope you pick up this quote quickly and can help.

Wa'alaikumus-salaam

P.S - Anyone else can also advise and help me too, JazakAllah
 
Perseveranze said:
Peace Saffy786,

Here are refutations to both. I still don't get why someone is using the plagurism accussation, despite it being refuted many times, someone is desperate.

Anyways, regarding the bones before flesh accussation, please read this

Regarding the embroylogy plagurism accusation (refuted heavily), please read this (it's a long read but after you'll hopefully appreciate the miracle even more)
Click to expand...

Sorry for bothering you so much but please get back to me soooon! JazakAllah

Or can anyone else help me?
 
- Qatada - said:
:salamext:


Bones grow first in the embryo or muscles?

Given that the formation of muscle and bone are complex, multistep processes, I am not sure that it is very meaningful to ask which takes place first. We might define the first step in "bone formation" as the first expression of Cbfa1 (now Runx2) in mice. This gene is necessary for the determination of osteoblasts. Yet this occurs in an embryo in which there is already a cartilagenous model of the bone. Why wouldn't that be the first step in bone formation?

Similarly, we might define the first step in "muscle formation" as the expression of the muscle- specific bHLH (basic helix-loop-helix) proteins like MyoD, or the first fusions of myoblasts to form myotubes.

Depending on how we define the first step in muscle and bone formation, we will get different answers on which occurs first.




​
So scientists presently are in disagreement, but since the Qur'an is correct in so many other ways scientifically, maybe scientists will prove in the future that bones come first before muscle?


Besides;
Just as the Qur'anic text suggests: فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا - then We created the Mudghah into bones THEN covered the bones in flesh. The 'Fa' which is 'translated' as 'then' shows that this happens simultaneously after that. ie. A happens then suddenly B happens. This is what the 'Fa' implies.

So the Qur'anic description itself recognises that both grow at a similar time and close to each other in sequence.




​
Click to expand...

Assalaamu-alaykum,

I'm quoting this post after quite a while now lol. But I am intrigued, when you say 'THEN' technically the development of one thing is JUST AFTER the first one.

But when you say 'similar time' it doesn't have to mean the exact same time, just around the same region of time i suppose?

And when you say 'close together in sequence' it means they grow right next to each other/close to each other in the sequence of development?

If you refer to my previous posts, please advise and help me in this confusionimsad

JazakAllah
 
Saffy786 said:
Assalaamu-alaykum, I'm quoting this post after quite a while now lol. But I am intrigued, when you say 'THEN' technically the development of one thing is JUST AFTER the first one. But when you say 'similar time' it doesn't have to mean the exact same time, just around the same region of time i suppose? And when you say 'close together in sequence' it means they grow right next to each other/close to each other in the sequence of development? If you refer to my previous posts, please advise and help me in this confusion JazakAllah
Click to expand...


:sl:

Even modern science is still not able to determine whether bones or muscles grow first, there are some various opinions. If you google it, there is evidence of certain cells that will grow as bones occur before the cells that will change into muscles.
 
Yes this is an interesting topic indeed, it takes a while and a lot of studying to interpret everything as accurately as possible I suppose.

But I would really appreciate some advice/help on how to forget about that website ( mentioned in my first post), because if you read my last post I am still so concerned about that site! I know it sounds bad, and people have posted the refutations to those claims, and yet still I keep worrying about it, as though there is something in that website which is true.

Helppppppp!

JazakAllah, wa'alaikumus-salaam
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top