what do christians & jews believe in?

naidamar said:



I cant remember precisely, but I think it is commanded in the OT of the bible.
Whether commanded or not, the fact is christians as a group of people went to war far more times and killed far more people than any other groups of people in the past 2,000 years.
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jazaks bro, can a christian plz reply to my post regarding wars mentioned in the bible? why they had to fight etc?
 
YM Usrah Umar,
Hmmmm.......If your referring to Christians fighting in a war in the Bible you won't find it. The people of Israel did have to fight in the Old Testament though and usually at God's order.

That is one of the things that make Christianity so different from other faiths. We are supposed to turn the other cheek and meet violence with love.

Now, you could point to all the wars fought in the name of Christianity and by christians even up to the War on Terror of today and ask.

"Are christians fighting to spread Christianity?"

While many may say yes, they should look into the specifics of any war. Even the crusades hundreds of years ago had more to do with gaining social, economic, and political power, than it did with spreading the faith.

The badr, and uhud conflicts were fought along the same lines. The fact that they were outnumbered so heavily is a testament to their bravery in the face of such odds. Makes me want to cry out,"Sparta!"

Politicians have used religion more as a tool to influence those around them since the beginning.

Peace be with you
 
gmcbroom said:
Chavundur, there is always hope. As for what can a christian do? Well, I can't speak for all, but I pray. Take the recent killing of Osama Bin Laden. Where as there were quite a few people in the US that were celebrating in the streets at his death. There were and are many who deplore his assination. Don't get me wrong he was responsible for many of my countrymen's deaths both in the US and abroad. However, that said, as a christian I weep at the death of a man who was killed without the chance to repent. Christians, that actually understand what it means to be christian, do not rejoice over the death of another no matter what their crimes were. It's about, redemption, being right with God. That is why the Church is against the death penalty and abortion because it robs a person of there chance to repent. Though, the Catechism does acknowledge that there are times that for the safety of society, some may be put to death by governments as in Osama Bin Ladens case, they don't like it.

Peace be with you
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Gmcbroom, I don't know how OBL is related with our subject but I think you gave that sample in order to show how people lost their peace in their hearths. Of course there seems no justice in American government, At least They have to judge him in order to explain everything, But they preferred to hide something. If I turn to my question, When I look at the history of Christianity, I see a general cause and effect table giving birth to normalization of irreligiousness or atheism. I mean There is a religion before people and it is so flexible that You don't need to think limits or thinking about matters. The form of religion has been mutated into a complex mechanism. In other words, Religion itself seems like living the scenes of Passion of The Christ. You have to have a submitted mind to predecessors without judging and have a good hearth. What I try to say is how can We expect a good result in favor of believers of christianity against atheism or new worldly life style satisfying desires only without thinking death or religion you can call it agnosticism ? Sometimes I see demographic studies like only 60% of England or Swiss believe, most of them atheist and preferred to deny. I see atheism the biggest problem for humanity. I prefer to see America as a 99% percent christian instead of Atheist.
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gmcbroom said:
YM Usrah Umar,
Hmmmm.......If your referring to Christians fighting in a war in the Bible you won't find it. The people of Israel did have to fight in the Old Testament though and usually at God's order.

That is one of the things that make Christianity so different from other faiths. We are supposed to turn the other cheek and meet violence with love.

Now, you could point to all the wars fought in the name of Christianity and by christians even up to the War on Terror of today and ask.

"Are christians fighting to spread Christianity?"

While many may say yes, they should look into the specifics of any war. Even the crusades hundreds of years ago had more to do with gaining social, economic, and political power, than it did with spreading the faith.

The badr, and uhud conflicts were fought along the same lines. The fact that they were outnumbered so heavily is a testament to their bravery in the face of such odds. Makes me want to cry out,"Sparta!"

Politicians have used religion more as a tool to influence those around them since the beginning.

Peace be with you
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peace be to you too, thank you for answering my friend...really appreciate. u mentioned "The people of Israel did have to fight in the Old Testament though and usually at God's order. "....can you plz expalin this? why did they hav to? cheers
 
Boaz said:
Uh, that verse in the Quran was talking about a specific group of Jews thousands of years ago. I'm a practicing Jew and we never preach about Ezra (Uzair) being the son of God.
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really? im quite suprised but ok kl no probs. im quite glad your here. could u plz answer the following questions plz my fellow friend?

1) earlier in this thread, i mentioned a story (i tink its from judiasm) that god and a prophet fought with each other and the prophet beat god...is this true? if yes could you plz explain plz, post the verse/story plz?

2) if zionism is just a political thing then why is it being compared with judiasm? it must be more than political?
 
The Story is about Prophet Job(pbuh) who struggled with Satan (according to Judaism) the point of the story being---why do good people suffer, and the answer according to Rabbi Maimonides---is that God's ways are always just even if we do not understand them.
---Some Chrsitians (I think) may interpret that the struggle was against God or an Angel......The Christians use the Torah as part of their Bible and call it the Old testament---but they have a different interpretation of it than the Jews.

I could be wrong (and biased)---but as I understand it---Zionism as a movement started off because of what the Europeans (including Russians)did to the Jews in Europe---anti-Semitism was a part of Church doctrine both Protestant and Catholic---who felt that Jews must be punished because they "killed God'---"Deicide." The American Jews pushed for a "Jewish state" and the result is the Isreali/Palestinian mess we see today. However, this idea does have some religious roots---The "Olam Haba"/Messianism concept mentions a time when all the Jews will be gathered together in the "promised land" and peace will reign......

The first wave of Russian Jews arrived in Palestine around the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century---by the 1920, there were so many Jewish immigrants that clashes began to happen between the immigrants and the residents---The Jews organized a defense organization called the Haganah which then evolved into an underground terrorist organization---1929---the Hebron massacre happens and by the 1930's---Palestinians were being expelled from their lands....around this time Haganah splits into another organsation called the Irgon--who conducts terrorist activities against the British and Palestinians---the Irgon then splits into another group---the Stern gang---another terrorist organization---Eventualy, all these are disbanded and their members become the Isreali Defense forces.

However, keep in mind that at this time it was the British that controlled this area ---their ineptness and foolishness contributed a lot to the problems.....

It's a complex history---please feel free to make corrections......
 
"Deicide"----I forgot to mention that Christian Chrurches have made efforts to revise their anti-Jewish sentiments for example the CCC 839-834 (Catholic Chrurch)
How successful these attempts might be are debatable as statistics in the U.S. show that hate-crimes against the Jews are the highest among all minorities.....

Zionism---The most ardent supporters of Zionism are not the diaspora Jews but some (U.S.) Evangelical Christians....who seem to have a love-hate relationship with Jews. They call them (the Jews) "the beloved of God" but also believe that when the "Messiah/Messianic age" comes, God will smite all the Jews--and everyone else except for them.....or something like that......

This information may also be biased---pls feel free to correct.
 
salaam

Siam were you a Jew before? are you a convert? seem to know a lot.

peace
 
:D Nah---I've been fortunate enough to be born a Muslim.....

My knowledge of Judaism and I/P situation was acquired (slowly) only after 9/11.----may have some gaps in it........
 
jazaks for the replys. does it mention in the quran how the jews are rich? if yes can sum1 post the ayah plz? how do they hav alot of money?
 
siam said:
They call them (the Jews) "the beloved of God" but also believe that when the "Messiah/Messianic age" comes, God will smite all the Jews--and everyone else except for them.....or something like that......
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i'd have to disagree. perhaps you could tell us why you think the above is at all true?
 
YM Usrah Umar said:
jazaks for the replys. does it mention in the quran how the jews are rich? if yes can sum1 post the ayah plz? how do they hav alot of money?
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I beg your pardon? Did you read the Quran or Mein Kampf? A lot of us don't even have the money to pay bills.
 
Boaz said:
I beg your pardon? Did you read the Quran or Mein Kampf? A lot of us don't even have the money to pay bills.
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but u can deny that jews (not all of them) have history about money and how they hav alot of it.
 
Not really. That's just propaganda. There were rich Jews prominent in certain governments in the past. That's why that stereotype exists. It's like saying many Middle-Eastern Muslims are oil tycoons.
 
If I am in error---pls make corrections.....there are so many types of Christianities---I can't keep them straight........

The info (love-hate relationship) I read in an article about CUFI (Christians United For Isreal) which is a Christian Zionist organization. Some of the attendees at a CUFI conference expressed the views I mentioned.....
It has to do with the concept of "rapture"---which some groups of Christians interpret as being "gathered up" (presumably into space?) so that they (their own specific group of Christians) do not have to face the "tribulations"---and "Armageddon"---or some such......might be specific to "born again" type Evangelicals.....perhaps....

From what little understanding I have of this subject---most Evangelicals are "Dispensationalists" ---which means they believe "end times" scenario will occur in a certain sequence. These events are called rapture, tribulations and milleniallism---(and there is also Armageddon somewhere in there)----and different groups have different sequences for these events......(?)

anyway here are some views......

This helps to explain how Christian Zionist leaders like John Hagee are getting away with claiming that their End Times prophecy is benign and Jewish leaders shouldn’t be concerned. In the Dispensational timeline the reign of the Antichrist, apocalyptic battles, suffering of the Jews, and other horrors of the Tribulation period don’t begin until after the born again believers are “Raptured” or snatched from the earth. They have to wait…for this divine intervention. Jewish leaders who embrace Hagee say that they don’t believe this will ever take place, so there’s nothing to worry about. No Rapture, no Tribulation, no problem. But most of John Hagee’s CUFI leaders and hosts are no longer Dispensational! They have made the transition to the more aggressive theology in which believers can…advance the prophetic clock.
In this rapidly growing Dominionist theology, born again believers…fight the Antichrist and evil instead of watching from the grandstands of heaven…Many Charismatic evangelicals are being taught to forget about being Raptured and prepare to fight…This is one of the factors creating the current hysteria in the U.S. about the Antichrist and his one-world government and why conspiracy theories are so rampant. (Christian Identity and associated white supremacist groups have always rejected the Rapture and taught that they must prepare to fight.)
---Richard Silverstien at Tikkun Olam

"But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. --- must convert or suffer the torture of eternal ****ation. " ---Max Blumenthal.

Jerry Falwell is another Evangelical who said in 1999 that the Anti-Christ was Jewish---but later apologised.
John Hagee apparently supports many Jewish settler groups with donations amounting upto a million Dollars.
 
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@ YM The Quran encourages trade. Wealth is a blessing from God that comes with the responsibility of charity.
Charity is an important practice in both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is called Tzadaka (?) not sure if the spelling is correct---anyway, like us Muslims, Jews who are blessed with wealth, must share with the needy---I think---right Boaz? .....It is obligatory or something(?).......
 
siam said:
If I am in error---pls make corrections.....there are so many types of Christianities---I can't keep them straight........

The info (love-hate relationship) I read in an article about CUFI (Christians United For Isreal) which is a Christian Zionist organization. Some of the attendees at a CUFI conference expressed the views I mentioned.....
It has to do with the concept of "rapture"---which some groups of Christians interpret as being "gathered up" (presumably into space?) so that they (their own specific group of Christians) do not have to face the "tribulations"---and "Armageddon"---or some such......might be specific to "born again" type Evangelicals.....perhaps....

From what little understanding I have of this subject---most Evangelicals are "Dispensationalists" ---which means they believe "end times" scenario will occur in a certain sequence. These events are called rapture, tribulations and milleniallism---(and there is also Armageddon somewhere in there)----and different groups have different sequences for these events......(?)

anyway here are some views......

This helps to explain how Christian Zionist leaders like John Hagee are getting away with claiming that their End Times prophecy is benign and Jewish leaders shouldn’t be concerned. In the Dispensational timeline the reign of the Antichrist, apocalyptic battles, suffering of the Jews, and other horrors of the Tribulation period don’t begin until after the born again believers are “Raptured” or snatched from the earth. They have to wait…for this divine intervention. Jewish leaders who embrace Hagee say that they don’t believe this will ever take place, so there’s nothing to worry about. No Rapture, no Tribulation, no problem. But most of John Hagee’s CUFI leaders and hosts are no longer Dispensational! They have made the transition to the more aggressive theology in which believers can…advance the prophetic clock.
In this rapidly growing Dominionist theology, born again believers…fight the Antichrist and evil instead of watching from the grandstands of heaven…Many Charismatic evangelicals are being taught to forget about being Raptured and prepare to fight…This is one of the factors creating the current hysteria in the U.S. about the Antichrist and his one-world government and why conspiracy theories are so rampant. (Christian Identity and associated white supremacist groups have always rejected the Rapture and taught that they must prepare to fight.)
---Richard Silverstien at Tikkun Olam

"But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. --- must convert or suffer the torture of eternal ****ation. " ---Max Blumenthal.

Jerry Falwell is another Evangelical who said in 1999 that the Anti-Christ was Jewish---but later apologised.
John Hagee apparently supports many Jewish settler groups with donations amounting upto a million Dollars.
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while the above is rather fascinating, i don't want to get into a discussion on it seeing as my question has little to do with what has been presented therein. once again, i have to ask you where you got the understanding that the messiah would kill all the jews etc?
 
siam said:
@ YM The Quran encourages trade. Wealth is a blessing from God that comes with the responsibility of charity.
Charity is an important practice in both Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism it is called Tzadaka (?) not sure if the spelling is correct---anyway, like us Muslims, Jews who are blessed with wealth, must share with the needy---I think---right Boaz? .....It is obligatory or something(?).......
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yes of course bro there is but ther has to be religous background behind the fact that jews are so wealthy, yh u can say that they put alot of emphasis of education, theyv seem to be a community where they help each other out since what happened with hitler etc etc, many more that i may not know about but i think its stems way back....way back. in the quran allah said stay away from the pgi fat and the jews ignored this, and sold the pig fat
 

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