Osama Bin Laden has been killed

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Re: Question to Trumble

Akhi, I respectfully disagree with you there.. Why would any Muslim want a brother to be captured? You think they will treat him like a human if they were to capture him? Innocent Muslim brothers are in Gitmo, tortured, and water boarded. What makes you think that they will not do the same or even worse if the Sheikh was incarcerated.

Regardless of who he was or what religion he followed, he murdered innocents. Even you acknowledge this. That's enough reason for him to be captured and brought to some kind of justice. The better question is, why would any Muslim blindly defend someone for doing wrong just because they're Muslim? His final judgement lies with God, but come on... I don't understand how you can say that "Sheikh bin Laden" murdered innocents and yet is still worthy of our respect...
 
Re: Question to Trumble

Akhi, I respectfully disagree with you there.. Why would any Muslim want a brother to be captured? You think they will treat him like a human if they were to capture him? Innocent Muslim brothers are in Gitmo, tortured, and water boarded. What makes you think that they will not do the same or even worse if the Sheikh was incarcerated.

Salaam,

I'm not saying there are going to treat him nicely. Whoever is suspected of committing a criminal offence should be brought to trial. I would have preferred a neutral country to put him on trial if possible.

I will respond to Trumble's post later...my computer shut down by itself and I lost my response. :(
 
Re: Question to Trumble



Regardless of who he was or what religion he followed, he murdered innocents. Even you acknowledge this. That's enough reason for him to be captured and brought to some kind of justice. The better question is, why would any Muslim blindly defend someone for doing wrong just because they're Muslim? His final judgement lies with God, but come on... I don't understand how you can say that "Sheikh bin Laden" murdered innocents and yet is still worthy of our respect...

Daily UMMAT: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this? If you are not involved, who might be?

USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (saw) for our guidance. I am thankful to The Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel.

http://www.public-action.com/911/oblintrv.html
 
Re: Question to Trumble

Daily UMMAT: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this? If you are not involved, who might be?

USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (saw) for our guidance. I am thankful to The Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel.

http://www.public-action.com/911/oblintrv.html

I don't know if that interview is real, although it would be nice if it was... Still, Ahmed has already admitted that he believes bin Laden to have been behind attacks that killed civilians. That's why I was responding to him.
 
Re: Question to Trumble



I don't know if that interview is real, although it would be nice if it was... Still, Ahmed has already admitted that he believes bin Laden to have been behind attacks that killed civilians. That's why I was responding to him.

Bring forth your proof where I said that. Perhaps, you should work on your reading skills a bit more,eh?
 
Re: Question to Trumble

Salaam,

I'm not saying there are going to treat him nicely. Whoever is suspected of committing a criminal offence should be brought to trial. I would have preferred a neutral country to put him on trial if possible.

The last thing they would ever do is extradite him to a 'neutral' country so he can have a fair trial. Nothing less than a military court trial would satisfy the savage, pathetic, patriotic Americans.

I will respond to Trumble's post later...my computer shut down by itself and I lost my response. :(

Sorry to hear about that, I usually don't reply to trolls.
 
Re: Question to Trumble

Bring forth your proof where I said that. Perhaps, you should work on your reading skills a bit more,eh?

Lol, here you go:

Posts 51 and 52 of this very thread, 4th page:

Since when Jihad is not part of religion? He was one of the best leaders of Jihad, and Jihad is part of Islam. And the Sheikh pioneered it.

So do you acknowledge that "Sheikh" bin Laden was the one who orchestrated the attacks on America? Is this what you mean by Jihad?

Of course he was behind it, and that was nothing compare to the number of Muslims killed everywhere else. But I don't agree with targeting civilians, at same time, yes, The Mujahideen do make mistakes, but that does not mean we will pinpoint their mistakes 24/7 to justify the occupation of Kuffar in Iraq, Afghanistan. So brother, stop paying attention to propaganda by Western media.
 
Re: Question to Trumble



I don't know if that interview is real, although it would be nice if it was... Still, Ahmed has already admitted that he believes bin Laden to have been behind attacks that killed civilians. That's why I was responding to him.

so what about the civilians killed by your beloved country of which you are a proud countryman i.e. America?
 
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Re: Question to Trumble

so what about the civilians killed by your beloved country of which you are a proud countryman i.e. America?

Wow, so now we're targeting the fact that I happen to be American? :p
 
Re: Question to Trumble

so what about the civilians killed by your beloved country of which you are a proud countryman i.e. America?

Its a very dangerous disease which 'American' Muslims are diagnosed with. They will rush and defend the honor of their president who murders thousands of Muslims, but they will hesitate to say Ameen to a dua for a Sheikh is who is labeled as a terrorist by the kuffar!
 
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4 people in the house....osama had no weapons......the raid took 40 minutes

40 minutes??? what were they doing for 40 minutes?

Well, maybe they raided the fridge for a quick meal, having got a bit peckish on the way in? Or, just maybe, they were searching the place as thoroughly as they were able for intelligence information?! :rollseyes

There were actually 22 or 23 people present in the compound according to the Pakistani authorities, including 13 children (none of whom were hurt).
 
Well, maybe they raided the fridge for a quick meal, having got a bit peckish on the way in? Or, just maybe, they were searching the place as thoroughly as they were able for intelligence information?!


yuppers and look at the fruits of that intelligence-- a chunky Osama watching himself on TV playing sonic the hedgehog..
I am sure a little girl watching her siblings or father killed isn't hurtful at all!
 
Re: Question to Trumble



Wow, so now we're targeting the fact that I happen to be American? :p

well, I do agree that you, as an individual, had no control over deciding which country you would be born in, Allah swt decided for you to be a born on a piece of land in His world which is called America. But you have something in your control. This something is open-mindedness, devoid of any nationalism, and critique of the crimes conducted by the people representing your land. Many American reverts to Islam actually began to hate the fact that they happen to be Americans (American nationality), gave up their citizenship and moved out. While it is true that all the lands belong to Allah swt but all the governments, Allah swt has nothing to do with them.

If you cannot renounce the "Americaness" within you, at least you can critique the people who are defining what is "Americaness."
 
uday and qusay dead = bodies showcased to journalists

Saddam Hussein dead = execution seen all around the world

Osama bin laden 'worlds most wanted man' = nada, instead we get some fake..silly ass home videos
 
Re: Question to Trumble

The last thing they would ever do is extradite him to a 'neutral' country so he can have a fair trial. Nothing less than a military court trial would satisfy the savage, pathetic, patriotic Americans.

:sl:

It is very likely he would be tried by a military tribunal. These military tribunal are inexperienced in terms of handling cases and do not have a system of judicial precedent. This puts the defendant at an disadvantage, so I would not like to see OBL to be put on trial in these tribunals, but a proper court.

Sorry to hear about that, I usually don't reply to trolls.

Let's not accuse other members of being a troll. If you suspect a member is one, then report them.

As you are quite entitled to do. Thank you for being polite in doing so!

It's fine.

They might have been able to obtain it, true. But like most else I've got to say on this subject, it's a matter of practicalities. I hardly think OBL was the 'talking' type, at least voluntarily.

Well not all suspects are going to talk and OBL is not going to be the first or the last suspect to make it difficult to reveal information. I'm sure the police have a variety of lawful interrogation techniques and the courts can always draw adverse conclusions where the suspect does not answer or refuses to comment on certain issues.

In short, I doubt there would have been much to add to the documents and tapes etc found in the compound.

I suspect that there is more evidence. You said it yourself that he is not stupid. He would not have have all the documents and tapes to be put into one compound. There is a possibility there may have been additional documents, tapes and other forms of evidence hidden elsewhere.

Firstly, my concern regarding more death and injury was not for the SEALS. Had they been ordered to capture OBL they would have attempted to do so; they are professionals, they know their job and they know the risks. But think of the consequences if OBL HAD been captured? Does anyone seriously think no attempt to get him released would be made? Obviously actively 'springing' him was unlikely, but how many people would be kidnapped as potential exchanges? A 'dirty bomb' set off, with the threat of another is he wasn't released? A suicide bomb a day until he was released? Who knows.

So you suspect if he was captured, some of his supporters would use unlawful violence in order to pressure the US government for him to be released? This is possible but it depends on whether the threat or use of unlawful violence is significant or not. As for kidnappings, it depends on the person who is kidnapped.

There was a US contractor that was captured in Iraq and was beheaded when the US refused to release prisoners from Guantanamo bay.

If he was convicted, the process would just continue for years even the event of a death sentence (which tends to take a while to be carried out in the US).

He would have been tried in a military tribunal. I doubt he would be tried by traditional courts...

And how, if he was was executed, would his 'martyrdom' have been marked around the world? My opinion, and its only that, is that many more would have died that way.

To be captured, put on trial and sentenced to death? I doubt it. I think they would carry out attacks against western troops, embassies or target particular individuals. If they want to be killed, they would want to be killed in battle, because it would be seen as more "heroic"...

Principles are all well and good, but the consequences of following them cannot always be set aside, and sometimes they may be 'trumped' by others. In this case, I think that applies to the right to life of potential future victims.

Yes, general principles do have exceptions. However, the innocent until proven guilty principle is an absolute right, according to European Convention on Human Rights...I'm sure the US laws have similar views.

To make this exception can put vulnerable individuals at risk of being killed. Are you saying that the presumption that someone is innocent until proven guilty is rebutted where potential future victims are at risk of being killed? A better way to protect future civilians from harm is to arrest the individual, put him on trial and sentence him if guilty. If he's not guilty, then the person who has committed the crime is still out there and may commit further offences.


I will respond to your last comment later...
 
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Re: Question to Trumble

Of course he was behind it


Bring forth your proof where I said that. Perhaps, you should work on your reading skills a bit more,eh?


I think you didn't read rest of my posts where I cleared off the info regarding that. Just couple days after I wrote that post, a brother told me what happened, and I was wrong about OBL being the main leader behind 9/11.

Pure gold... ;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D
 
Osama bin Laden is many things to many people, particularly when one considers his life over the course of the last 30 years. A one time a hero of the mujahideen in Afghanistan, and until recently, the world’s most wanted man.

The assassination of Osama bin Laden has posited questions relating to whether or not the US has been vindicated in its policies relating to arbitrary detention and extrajudicial killings.

According to a number of sources, there have been suggestions that one of the most vital clues leading up to his identification, came from a detainee held at Guantanamo Bay. There is no way of testing the veracity of this claim as it may be a covert attempt at providing legitimacy to those who claim that Guantanamo Bay has been a success story for the US. Whatever the truth of the matter and in time we may learn more, out of the many thousands of false confessions that were extracted under torture and abuse, the legacy of Guantanamo is one that has tarnished the reputation of the US and only undermined its proclaimed values.

The incident is also an extension of the Obama doctrine – kill, don’t detain. From the perspective of the administration of justice, the targeted killing of bin Laden has been counterproductive in that there can never be an independent judicial process to test the multitude of charges laid at the door of the accused as happened with the alleged war criminals at Nuremberg. Whilst it may not have served the propaganda value of a dead bin Laden who could be depicted as the master of every heinous terrorist atrocity since he fell out with the CIA, it would have made more sense to attempt to capture the man and provide him with due process, a strong message that a western conception of justice has some meaning. That has been the rationale behind the war crimes tribunals held at the Hague in relation to defendants who committed genocide. If the rule of law permits such crimes to be prosecuted then it could have withstood the anguish of unearthing the wrongdoings of Bin laden.

Regardless of whether or not the principles of necessity and proportionality were adhered to from an international law perspective, the order to kill bin Laden and not detain him has sent the wrong message in terms of the continuation of this conflict – that justice can only be achieved through the barrel of a gun.

Osama bin Laden is many things to many people, particularly when one considers his life over the course of the last 30 years. A one time a hero of the mujahideen in Afghanistan, and until recently, the world’s most wanted man.

Western history books may seek to remember him as an evil man, but as we know history is written by the victors and there is no end to the war in sight. However, if we have learnt anything from political violence, it is that nothing exists within a vacuum. Even according to those within the US, such as former CIA chief of the bin Laden unit, Michael Scheuer, he portrayed other traits which were praiseworthy, "...pious, brave, generous, intelligent, charismatic, patient, visionary, stubborn, egalitarian, and, most of all, realistic...". The question that remains unanswered is what made a man with those qualities become the most wanted on the planet – dead or alive. The answer is crucial if we are to call a halt to the hatred that will bellow out of the cauldron boiling away now in the AQ franchise.

Like so many of those who chose violence as a means of effecting change, inevitably the deaths of civilians taint the very causes they seek to strive for. While many Muslims around the world sympathised with the desire to remove western interference from Muslim lands, the means to be used differed greatly, with the large majority of Muslims being against the targeting of civilians.

In the end, the death of Osama bin Laden has served his cause and branded him forever in the minds of his enemies and supporters – gunned down and free or shot like a hoodlum in the wild west. So we need to ask ourselves, is Osama bin Laden really dead, or are has the shoot to kill policy merely created the grounds for spawning thousands more bin Ladens ready to take his mantle?

The cycle of violence in the War on Terror is one which has seen both sides constantly using new tactics and means to gain the upper hand on the other. With Obama’s message to the world being that there is no room to provide due process, the conflict has become more deadly than ever. Far too many will see his actions as a sign that there are no more rules and its kill or be killed – it may be a time to celebrate for many but for the informed the fear is that we are all dispensable collateral in a war not of our choosing.

http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-wo...ycle-of-violence-just-became-even-more-deadly
 
Re: Question to Trumble

It is very likely he would be tried by a military tribunal. These military tribunal are inexperienced in terms of handling cases and do not have a system of judicial precedent. This puts the defendant at an disadvantage, so I would not like to see OBL to be put on trial in these tribunals, but a proper court.

Something of a dilemma - which, if anything, adds to the force of my argument. If you consider the possibilities;

1. 'Normal' trial by jury in the US. Where would you find a jury? They had enough trouble with OJ Simpson, let alone OBL.

2. Military tribunal. Result always likely to be seen as contrived and 'unfair'. And the same problem only worse, unbiased miltary judges would be even harder to find than a jury.

3. International court of some kind. Probably the best option, but legally dubious in terms of jurisdiction. There is no doubt that, legally, any trial should take place in the US according to US law and anything else would almost certainly be politically unacceptable.


Well not all suspects are going to talk and OBL is not going to be the first or the last suspect to make it difficult to reveal information. I'm sure the police have a variety of lawful interrogation techniques and the courts can always draw adverse conclusions where the suspect does not answer or refuses to comment on certain issues.

I'm not quite sure of your point there. What part of that doesn't apply to any criminal suspect?

I suspect that there is more evidence. You said it yourself that he is not stupid. He would not have have all the documents and tapes to be put into one compound. There is a possibility there may have been additional documents, tapes and other forms of evidence hidden elsewhere.

Absolutely. I just think it unlikely in the extreme OBL would have revealed where they were.


So you suspect if he was captured, some of his supporters would use unlawful violence in order to pressure the US government for him to be released? This is possible but it depends on whether the threat or use of unlawful violence is significant or not. As for kidnappings, it depends on the person who is kidnapped.

There was a US contractor that was captured in Iraq and was beheaded when the US refused to release prisoners from Guantanamo bay.

I rather more than 'suspect' it, I consider it a virtual certainty. It certainly does depend on the person(s) kidnapped (whether it should is a different issue). It would certainly need, with all due respect to the dead man and his family, to be someone more high profile than that contractor. I consider the repeated suicide bomb scenario more probable, though.


To be captured, put on trial and sentenced to death? I doubt it. I think they would carry out attacks against western troops, embassies or target particular individuals. If they want to be killed, they would want to be killed in battle, because it would be seen as more "heroic"...

I think you may have missed my point here. I was assuming he had been captured alive; the choice then being between 'life' or 'death'. There's another legal dilemma, BTW.. a jury trial would presumably have to be held in New York, or at least according to New York law. The death sentence would therefore have not been an option.

Yes, general principles do have exceptions. However, the innocent until proven guilty principle is an absolute right, according to European Convention on Human Rights...I'm sure the US laws have similar views.

I'm not quite sure that's really the issue. It can easily be argued around by classifying OBL as an 'enemy combatant' or similar, and hence a legitimate target. Were his status assumed as 'civilian', it is no more legal to execute him without due process than to assume him guilty rather than innocent. I'm not denying there are huge moral issues here, BTW, or that they necessarily have right or wrong answers.

To make this exception can put vulnerable individuals at risk of being killed. Are you saying that the presumption that someone is innocent until proven guilty is rebutted where potential future victims are at risk of being killed? A better way to protect future civilians from harm is to arrest the individual, put him on trial and sentence him if guilty. If he's not guilty, then the person who has committed the crime is still out there and may commit further offences.

I'm not suggesting that as a general principle. Your scenario suggests that the trial would be used by the authorities as a way of establishing whether the accused was guilty or innocent. That isn't even true in the case of 'common' criminals, it's very rare that the accused is dramatically established to be innocent in Perry Mason style. They are usually released because guilt cannot be proven 'beyond reasonable doubt', and the police rarely devote more than lip-service to finding the 'actual' culprit as they are pretty certain they know that already... take OJ as a paradigmatic example. In the case of OBL, I find the idea he might have been found not only not guilty, but demonstrated to be innocent to be improbable in the extreme. Not impossible, true, but I'm weighing up alternatives here.
 
uday and qusay dead = bodies showcased to journalists

Saddam Hussein dead = execution seen all around the world

Osama bin laden 'worlds most wanted man' = nada, instead we get some fake..silly ass home videos

Another point of view ; If USA captured OBL alive, When We consider revolution process in Arab world, That situation would risk alliance between KSA and USA in middle of the oil prize management. As far as I understand, America would never let that happen in no way. Nature of today's economy would punish that generator of unexpected results. This is just my opinion.
 
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