truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol, what do you think of this person's perspective...

Jesus’ Relation to YHWH:
Trinity and Christology in Light of Modern Scholarship
By Dan Mages

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol Invictus:
i think that this is what the matter reduces to as well.

Well, if that's the case, then we Grace and I are gonna just have to agree to disagree on that point. I don't see any reason at all to think that the originators of the Nicene Creed were specifically intending to attribute the title "One God" to Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Again, NT WRIGHT HIMSELF has stated that Paul, while clearly understanding Jesus' divine nature, STILL spoken in terms where "God" or the "One God" specifically referred ONLY to the the Unbegotten Father of Jesus Christ. I listed a whole bunch of those writings from Paul. So, one cannot say that just because a person (or council) uses that language, that the language is IMPLICITLY subordinationist or Arian.

To me it feels like some people are trying to read the Athanasian Creed BACK INTO the Nicene and N-C Creeds. Hmmm...

Digression: In my opinion, what the Anthanasian Creed gained in clarity about the subordination issue, it sacrificed in it's link to biblical language.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Actually, back up. I want to restate something...

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, the uncreated "word" of God to Mary, is the human "embodiment" of the Name and Great Commandments of God; that is to say, Jesus is the complete human expression of 1) God the Father's self-disclosure [ "I Am" (John 8:58) ] 2) "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) and 3) "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus 19:9-18). In short, he was the perfect living, breathing expression of the reality of the "Mother of the Book": Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves, purify our "mirrors" of God, and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving. He IS what Micah 6:8 is saying.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol, what do you think of this person's perspective...

Jesus’ Relation to YHWH:
Trinity and Christology in Light of Modern Scholarship
By Dan Mages

i read the following:

It is my
contention that Jesus is not YHWH, the one God of Israel, but the son of YHWH.

and immediately my walls came up. once the writer has distinguished christ from YHWH then he has lost his footing on the biblical foundation. if christ were not YHWH then the following would be quite problematic:

24 This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer and Creator:
“I am the LORD, who made all things.
I alone stretched out the heavens.
Who was with me
when I made the earth? --- Isaiah 44:24 NLT

“But the LORD is the only true God. [...] Say this to those who worship other gods: ‘Your so-called gods, who did not make the heavens and earth, will vanish from the earth and from under the heavens.’” — Jeremiah 10:10-11 NLT

notice that YHWH claims to be the sole creator. if christ is distinct from YHWH then he could not have created everything in existence as well. In fact the way to find out who in fact is YHWH is by whether or not they created the world. of course passages such as the prologue of the gospel of john answer this quite well and the OT references where YHWH clearly designates more than one person only shows us that this is in fact correct. so no, i'd disagree with the author simply because his opinion cannot be reconciled with the above. see what i'm saying here yielded?

edit: i've since read all of it and i must reiterate that i don't buy the argument. for one thing, the author does not at all deal with the fact that the OT describes YHWH as being more than one person. in gen. 19:24 YHWH is on earth yet another YHWH is in heaven. as regards the zachariah passage which i cited earlier, YHWH says that he will dwell with his people and on that day they will know that YHWH has sent him--we have one YHWH who sends another person who is also YHWH. earlier still i had cited two passages in which the god of israel's face could not be seen lest the person die and another in which the god of israel's face was seen and he did not raise a hand against them---it would seem that the god of israel is more than one person. furthermore, the bible actually tells us quite clearly how to identify the person who is god: YHWH is whoever created the world. now we know that the bible goes on to identify the father, the son, and the holy spirit as having created the world and since YHWH has said that he did it by himself it follows that these three are in fact the one YHWH.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

That's not the end...obviously!
After a person dies...on the Day of Judgement he'll be resurrected and will be accountable for all his deeds on earth...and God Almighty will then grant him Paradise or condemn him to Hell..
That's when a person's eternal life begins....
that is if God wills he'll live a blissful life in Paradise foreva or will suffer eternal punishment in Hellfire.

So, you think that, be it in Paradise or in Hellfire, a person does live forever.So, next follow-up question: Is this the same person or a different person than the person who lived and died on earth?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Basically, if I were to say that the "One God" in the Nicene Creed, by the direct intention of the persons involved in it's inception, specifically indicated all 3 divine persons, you'd have no problem with me.

Ain't I right?

i think that this is what the matter reduces to as well. now, if i could just go back to an earlier point concerning the shema and which person of the trinity it refers to, i believe that you had claimed that it was in reference to the father only. i quite disagree. from the old testament, it would seem quite clear that YHWH does not merely refer to the father for we have passages wherein YHWH clearly speaks of the son:

10 “Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the LORD. 11 “Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. --- Zech. 2:10 NIV

notice that in the above more than one individual is called the god of israel---he who sends and he who is sent. in light of the above wherein we quite clearly see that YHWH speaks of more than just the father, how can you then claim that in the shema, YHWH ought only refer to the first person of the trinity? where is the warrant for this?

i understand that what we're discussing here is almost trivial but it is interesting if nothing else.

I think you got it. And Sol has a good memory for he even remembers what got us into this issue. YHWH is God -- which by my understanding (in concert with what I believe Nicea teaches even before the writing of the Chaledonian Definition or the Athanasian Creed) is inclusive of Father, Son, and Spirit -- the three-in-one God. The YHWH of the Shema is NOT just Father. And anticipating a future question/objection to this view, no, I don't find it a problem at all that Jesus prays to God who I have just declared to be a tri-personal God of which he is himself one person.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Ok. I know how to start this. Sol and GS, are the following terms applicable BIBLICAL realities?

YHWH
Word of YHWH
Spirit of YHWH

Are there actual Scriptures that talk about these concepts? If so, then let me ask you: Trinitarianly speaking, WHICH descriptions go with WHAT divine Hypostasis? Basically, which terms correspond with which Hypostases?

Wait for it...

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I believe that Jesus is co-substantial... with God the Father, both sharing divine nature. It CAN'T be that...because I've affirmed those things ad nauseum. You merely don't take my affirmations as genuine because I don't agree to the way you interpret the language of the Nicene and N-C Creeds.

I don't have any doubt regarding your personal sincerity. When you say that you you believe Jesus is co-substantial with the God the Father, I believe you genuinely mean that. But apparently we have different understandings of what that means, because I would not have said something like this:

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, the uncreated "word" of God to Mary, is the human "embodiment" of the Name and Great Commandments of God; that is to say, Jesus is the complete human expression of 1) God the Father's self-disclosure [ "I Am" (John 8:58) ] 2) "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" (Deuteronomy 6:4-5) and 3) "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus 19:9-18). In short, he was the perfect living, breathing expression of the reality of the "Mother of the Book": Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves, purify our "mirrors" of God, and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving. He IS what Micah 6:8 is saying.

"Co-substantial" to me means of the same essence, and when two persons (Father and Son) are in essence one, then Jesus is not just the human embodiment of the Name of God, he is in essence the human embodiment of God himself. If he isn't, then truthseeker is right, Jesus is NOT both mortal (human) and immortal (God) at the same time and Chalcedon (which was held to make Nicea clear) is wrong.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Ok. I know how to start this. Sol and GS, are the following terms applicable BIBLICAL realities?

YHWH
Word of YHWH
Spirit of YHWH

Are there actual Scriptures that talk about these concepts? If so, then let me ask you: Trinitarianly speaking, WHICH descriptions go with WHAT divine Hypostasis? Basically, which terms correspond with which Hypostases?

Wait for it...

The term YHWH does NOT refer to any particular hypostasis, but to the whole of God. So in listing "YHWH", "Word of YHWH", and "Spirit of YHWH" you have referred to only 2 of the 3 hypostases.

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

So, next follow-up question: Is this the same person or a different person than the person who lived and died on earth?

The same person......wonder what u're up to!!?

I would say that humans are Mortal Jesus can't be both Mortal and Immortal.

If he isn't, then truthseeker is right, Jesus is NOT both mortal (human) and immortal (God) at the same time and Chalcedon (which was held to make Nicea clear) is wrong.

EXACTLY!!
That sums up this discussion perfectly!!

[size=+2]say: He is Allah, the one and Only;[/size]

[size=+2]Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;[/size]

[size=+2]He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;[/size]

[size=+2]and there is none like unto Him.[/size]

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

The term YHWH does NOT refer to any particular hypostasis, but to the whole of God. So in listing "YHWH", "Word of YHWH", and "Spirit of YHWH" you have referred to only 2 of the 3 hypostases.

the above is my response as well. the fact that the other members of the trinity are themselves called god and YHWH only proves our position in my opinion. in my eyes, the matter can't even be debated anymore because all three of us accept that the OT clearly calls christ, YHWH. your point could only work if the other members of the trinity were never called YHWH but this is not the case. think about it, if christ is not YHWH then isaiah 44:24 claims that he did not create the world and as such the new testament is wrong, and jeremiah 10:10-11 claims that he will be destroyed by god and as such he is the enemy of YHWH and a false god.

 

[Amigo]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Hello friends

God is immortal, death can have no power over Him.
God can not be contained by any creature, it would die.
God is also non-violent. He is only genereous, all loving.
When humanity grew in thanksgiving God was invented in our life.
"the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"
But humanity can not contain God, it would die, and it died
The son of man can not contain the Son of God.
Death can not contain God either, it would die, and it died.

And so God destroys our corrupted nature from within. Humanity became corrupted and mortal through violence. God allowed Himself to be swallowed up by violence. Violence in its stupidity swallowed up God, but since it can't contain Him it got destroyed in the process.

 

[Amigo]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Hello friends

God is immortal, death can have no power over Him.
God can not be contained by any creature, it would die.
God is also non-violent. He is only genereous, all loving.
When humanity grew in thanksgiving God was invented in our life.
"the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"
But humanity can not contain God, it would die, and it died
The son of man can not contain the Son of God.
Death can not contain God either, it would die, and it died.

And so God destroys our corrupted nature from within. Humanity became corrupted and mortal through violence. God allowed Himself to be swallowed up by violence. Violence in its stupidity swallowed up God, but since it can't contain Him it got destroyed in the process.

Oh sorry for the "invented", meant 'invited'

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Paul does not solve the puzzle of how God can be three and one at the same time. But for him, tis is what the word God actually means. Even when he is using "God" to denote the first member of the three [YO: God the Father], this member is now defined in and by his intimate relation to the other two. The creator is known as the Father of Jesus, as the sender of the Spirit.

--N.T. Wright, What Saint Paul Really Said, Page 74.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Paul does not solve the puzzle of how God can be three and one at the same time. But for him, tis is what the word God actually means. Even when he is using "God" to denote the first member of the three [YO: God the Father], this member is now defined in and by his intimate relation to the other two. The creator is known as the Father of Jesus, as the sender of the Spirit.

--N.T. Wright, What Saint Paul Really Said, Page 74.

greetings yielded, i doubt that the above was primarily directed at me but my point still stands. the bible explicitly teaches that YHWH is more than one person and as such you cannot claim that the shema only entails the first person of the trinity. furthermore, your view entails problems as it concerns the isaiah and jeremiah passages that i brought up.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Dealing with the Jeremiah passage...

Sol:
notice that YHWH claims to be the sole creator. if christ is distinct from YHWH then he could not have created everything in existence as well.

Biblically speaking, Does YHWH create anything without his Word/Memra? Yes or no.

Doesn't the bible say that it was through His Word that God created all things?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Biblically speaking, Does YHWH create anything without his Word/Memra? Yes or no.

Doesn't the bible say that it was through His Word that God created all things?

first off:

24 This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer and Creator:
“I am the LORD, who made all things.
I alone stretched out the heavens.
Who was with me
when I made the earth? --- Isaiah 44:24 NLT

if you agree that his word is a person and yet claim that YHWH's word is not YHWH then the above is saying that insofar as the word is actually the possessor of a will (and as such a person in the most general sense) then his word did not at all participate in this process. however, if his word is impersonal then once again we are merely speaking of the father as the sole creator-god and once again christ is removed from the equation. either way that you'll answer this, it'll end up with christ not being part of the creative process at all as log as you believe that he is distinct from YHWH.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol, I asked a yes or no question, homie. You didn't even answer it.

Again...Does YHWH create anything without his Word/Memra? Yes or no.

(Oh, and I'll see your Isaiah 44...and raise you Proverbs 8:22-31.)

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

1) My major point for me bringing out the NT Wright quote is talking about the use of the designation in the Nicene and N-C Creeds. Neither you nor GS can show definitive evidence that the creators of those Creeds were NOT intending to use the same type of language that Paul did such that there was "using 'God" to denote the first member of the three..." I'm not seeing any evidence to say that the Nicene Father specifically AVOIDED using Paul's biblical differentiating language.

2) Concerning this whole thing... I finally see what our difference is. It's basically based on me distinguishing Jesus from YHWH. This whole mess. Basically, GS and Sol see it as inherently subordinationist (or something heretical) to say that only God the Father is "YHWH". But I see what's happening now...

When using the term "YHWH", GS and Sol are talking about the common divine nature primarily...such that all divine persons share "YHWH-ness", as it were.

When I use the term "YHWH", I am talking about God the Father, the only divine Hypostasis to have aseity and be completely underivative in any sense (The Word/Son is "begotten" from the Father and the Spirit "proceeds" from the Father) As I said, the only reason that Jesus has divine nature co-substantial to God the Father in the first place is because of his eternal relationship to God the Father. Same way for the Spirit.

This will show what I'm talking about. For GS and Sol...

Jesus of Nazareth is YHWH for no other reason than His being the Word/Son of God the Father. True or false?

God the Father is YHWH for no other reason than that is his identity itself. True or False?

All this is talking about is the distinction between the "Unbegotten God" and the "Begotten God". If we are talking about "YHWH" basically being a descriptive term for the divine nature, then I can understand what GS and Sol are trying to affirm. What I'm saying is this: If what we are talking about is how Jesus, his disciples, and the Jewish Christians taught by the disciples would have believed the Shema referred to, it would have been God, "the Father of Jesus" and the "sender fo the Spirit" that Jesus taught his disciples to pray to.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I would just like to note that this whole thread got moved. I'm betting because NOW the conversation is MUCH MORE about the Trinity than the original topic.

:shakes head:

Oh, well. It just is what it is.