Things in Islam I am curious about...

[siam]

I don't understand your distinction....^o) (but then, I havn't really read the whole thread.....)

In my opinion, it would have to be both.....as the Quran is understood in context and the Hadith/Sunna are an important aspect of context......Any wisdom teaching has to be understood by the human agent---without that, it is simply words---it is our intellectual interaction with our wisdom teachings that create the transformative force for spirituality....."revelation" is not a decoration to be looked at....it is Guidance to be implemented in our lives.

Refer to Sura 68 verses 1-8
Here God speaks of the moral character of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). The context is about trust....That the message/Guidance can be trusted because the character of the Prophet(pbuh) is trustworthy....this is again expressed in Surah 48 verses 7-9. The Quran also points out that God is a witness in Surah 13 verses 42-43.

It should be intellectually self-evident that someone whose moral character is not upright should not be completely trusted---for that would be foolish....Islam/Quran does not condone blind belief. Trustworthiness of the Prophet's (pbuh) character was well-known even before his Prophethood. Therefore, those who insisted that the revelation/Guidance was not from God---were only deluding themselves....by ignoring the moral uprightness of the Prophet's character. If his moral character had been flawed---then yes---one would have had a right to doubt---but this was not the case.......

 

[MSalman]

1) First is the understanding I expressed above correct? And if it is not or is so only in the roughest of sense, would someone please correct and refine it for me to be more precise and accurate.

This issue needs to be divided into 3 parts:

1 - Are Prophets (peace be upon them) infallible in regard to delivering the revelation and major sins? The answer to this question is yes.

2 - Are they guarded from worldly errors? The answer is no.

3 - What about minor sins? This is disputed among scholars. From what I've read, majority of them said that some of the Prophet did commit some minor sin but they repented from it right away i.e., the example of Adam (peace be upon him). I personally adhere to this view and Allah knows best

2) What are the texts on which this teaching is established? Is this idea found in the explicit teachings of the Qur'an, the Hadith, or more so understood as implied and with the explict teaching is found primarily in the interpretation of those texts by Muslim scholars?
Thanks!!

there are explicit texts from the Qur'an and the ahadith which supports 3 points I mentioned above: please refer to The infallibility of the Prophets

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thanks, very much for the link, IslamicLife. This is the sort of thing I was looking for. Though I have to say that in the very first paragraph it raises more questions than it answers. For it says:

The Prophets are the best of mankind, and the most noble of creation before Allaah. Allaah chose them to convey the call of Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah to mankind, and Allaah has made them the intermediaries between Him and His creation in conveying His Laws. They were commanded to convey the message from Allaah....

. When I first read this I thought it was a quote from the Qur'an and so I said to myself: "Self, this is why Muslims think as they do in the Qur'an. It says it explicity right in this passage." Then I went to look at what the passage was and I discovered that it wasn't a passage from the Qur'an at all, but the opinion statement of the author. However he did give a verse to substantiate his view, and thus he continued...

They were commanded to convey the message from Allaah, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “They are those whom We gave the Book, Al‑Hukm (understanding of the religious laws), and Prophethood. But if these disbelieve therein (the Book, Al‑Hukm and Prophethood), then, indeed We have entrusted it to a people (such as the Companions of Prophet Muhammad) who are not disbelievers therein” [al-An’aam 6:89]

My problem, I just don't see how saying that an individual or group of individuals was commanded to convey a certain message from Allah, that they were the ones to whom the Book was given says anything about their moral character one way or the other? We are told that they are not disbelievers, but their belief or lack of belief is not in question. I am only asking why it is held that they did not commit sin. That is quite a different question than asking if they were either believers or comptent messengers.

I'm not done reading, so it may yet say. But it doesn't start on a hopeful note.

 

[MSalman]

^Because it logically follows that God would choose only the person, who's morally best and exemplary among his people. Again, remember the morals are based up on Divine morals and not subjective morals defined by humans. Otherwise, if a Prophet was just like rest of the people, 1) no one would listen to him as he's not an example among them and 2) there's not difference between him and rest of them in terms of morals.

on another note, we've a consensus among the companions of the Prophet (sal-allahy alayhi wa salaam) regarding this issue and they knew Islam better than anyone.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam Alaykum

what's the exact meaning of Yashfeen ? Can it be a name for baby girl ?

 

[Insaanah]

:wa: sister

^ It is from Surah ash-Shu3araa (26:80)

"And when I am ill, it is He who cures me."

It means "He cures me".

Can it be a name for baby girl ?

Don't know. Every time her parents call her, they are calling her "He cures me". Or if they want to call her over to them, they'll be saying to her, "He cures me, come here!" It doesn't make sense. There are many other nice names...

And Allah knows best.

 

[Grace Seeker]

^Because it logically follows that God would choose only the person, who's morally best and exemplary among his people. Again, remember the morals are based up on Divine morals and not subjective morals defined by humans. Otherwise, if a Prophet was just like rest of the people, 1) no one would listen to him as he's not an example among them and 2) there's not difference between him and rest of them in terms of morals.

on another note, we've a consensus among the companions of the Prophet (sal-allahy alayhi wa salaam) regarding this issue and they knew Islam better than anyone.

I appreciate that there is a consensus among the companions of the Prophet on this matter. That is instructive. The more I read on this question, the more it seems to me that this is where that point of view then appears to come from, the Prophet's companions, not the Prophet and not any revelation given to the Prophet. Thank-you for you help.

 

[جوري]

"And when I am ill, it is He who cures me." It means "He cures me".

sob7an Allah I just posted an excerpt from this sura on the best recitation thread =))

 

[Uthman]

Grace Seeker, the Prophet is praised in the Qur'an for his moral character:

"And indeed, you are of a great moral character." [Surah 68 (Al-Qalam, The Pen), Verse 4]

I didn't read the entire discussion in detail so not sure if this helps.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker, the Prophet is praised in the Qur'an for his moral character:

"And indeed, you are of a great moral character." [Surah 68 (Al-Qalam, The Pen), Verse 4]


I didn't read the entire discussion in detail so not sure if this helps.

I initiated the present discussion with my question in post #2395.

It helps some. Of course it doesn't tell me how "great moral character" necessarily equates with "sinless". I can certainly see the two ideas as related, but not necessarily as equivalents.

 

[gmcbroom]

Hello All,
I'm curious about a phrase I read from time to time.

Allah knows best.

I was curious how many times was it stated and in the Koran and in what context was it used?

As a Christian I agree God does indeed know best but I'm not sure the phrase was ever stated like that in the Bible.

When the disciples had a question they simply asked Jesus and his answers weren't so case closed. How Jesus responded usually made the questioner think things through and learn. Even when the person wasn't satisfied with his answer the way they acted usually after hearing it was used as a learning experience for others.


Peace be with you

 

[Woodrow]

Hello All,
I'm curious about a phrase I read from time to time.

Allah knows best.

I was curious how many times was it stated and in the Koran and in what context was it used?

As a Christian I agree God does indeed know best but I'm not sure the phrase was ever stated like that in the Bible.

When the disciples had a question they simply asked Jesus and his answers weren't so case closed. How Jesus responded usually made the questioner think things through and learn. Even when the person wasn't satisfied with his answer the way they acted usually after hearing it was used as a learning experience for others.


Peace be with you

Like many supplications and Duas we make it does not seem to be in the Qur'an or Ahadith. I can not recall ever reading it in either. Duas and supplication are nearly always in a person's own words. Although sometimes somebody says something that seems so appropriate other people pick up on it and begin using it themselves.

 

[Ramadhan]

As a Christian I agree God does indeed know best but I'm not sure the phrase was ever stated like that in the Bible. When the disciples had a question they simply asked Jesus and his answers weren't so case closed. How Jesus responded usually made the questioner think things through and learn. Even when the person wasn't satisfied with his answer the way they acted usually after hearing it was used as a learning experience for others.

When it comes to Jesus, bible surprisingly says very little, especially considering that christian regards him as a messenger, messiah, redeemer of sins and god all rolled into one. This has to do with lack of oral preservation among his disciples of everything that jesus did/said.
On top of that, the little that was remembered by his disciples only got translated centuries later, and in totally different language, hence you get not only very little but also very confusing accounts of Jesus (pbuh).

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar, While I'll agree that the canon was settled centuries later. Some such as the Gospel of John were found to be from 90AD. Now, as for Oral tradition I both agree and disagree with you. Why simple. The Catholic Church has been around since the beginning and it was built on Peter. The Church has the oral traditions to back it up. Now true, over time many broke away from the The Church and regretfully, they lost the oral traditions when they broke off. So to help gaurd against losing them the Church started to write them down. Thats why The Church has Bishops, Priests, and Deacons and yes Apostolic Succession. Those that don't have a harder time of keeping the traditions.

Peace be with you.

 

[Ramadhan]

Naidamar, While I'll agree that the canon was settled centuries later. Some such as the Gospel of John were found to be from 90AD

The oldest john manuscripts, P66, is only fragments of John 18:31-33, 38-38, the size of a credit card, which has been dated ca. 125-150.
The oldest extant bible manuscripts is codex sinaiticus from the 3rd century at the earliest.

Throw in the fact that it was written in Koine Greek, while bible scholars agreed that Jesus (p) spoke either aramaic or ancient hebrew.

Have I also mentioned the fact that the oldest bible manuscripts did not contain Pericope Adulterae (John 7:53-8:11), which somehow got added into and written into latin vulgate bible 600 ad?

Now, as for Oral tradition I both agree and disagree with you. Why simple. The Catholic Church has been around since the beginning and it was built on Peter. The Church has the oral traditions to back it up. Now true, over time many broke away from the The Church and regretfully, they lost the oral traditions when they broke off. So to help gaurd against losing them the Church started to write them down. Thats why The Church has Bishops, Priests, and Deacons and yes Apostolic Succession. Those that don't have a harder time of keeping the traditions.

This is meaningless. You can say until the cows come home or your face turn blue that catholic church have oral tradition from "the beginning", but the bitter fact is it never did.
Had the catholic church had oral traditions from "the beginning", every single actions and sayings by Jesus (pbuh) would have been preserved in aramaic or ancient hebrew, and do not also forget the fact that only less than 18% of bible is of alleged actions and sayings by Jesus (p).
Ironically, your pope knows so much more about prophet Muhammad SAW than he does about prophet Jesus (p)

 

[Grace Seeker]

in Islam God created EVERYTHING, THEREFORE God created the things with evil or the ability to be evil. God created man KNOWING full well man would sin. the GREAT GIFT we got from sinning was the ability to repent and turn back to Allah! proper repentance gets us Allah's forgiveness. Shaytan did not get this gift, he rather chose to believe that God was wrong.

I thought that Islam (with Christianity) believed that God was good, and good all the time. For Christianity that presents a philosphical conundrum "If God is good, then where does evil come from?" with which it must wrestle. But if the above correctly states the understanding of Islam, then it presents Islam with a very different (and IMO more difficult) question-- How exactly does a good God intentionally create evil and remain good?


With respect to humans, does Islam believe that God creates free will and we then make choices freely, or does Islam believe that God actually determines the outcome of our choices?

 

[Woodrow]

I thought that Islam (with Christianity) believed that God was good, and good all the time. For Christianity that presents a philosphical conundrum "If God is good, then where does evil come from?" with which it must wrestle. But if the above correctly states the understanding of Islam, then it presents Islam with a very different (and IMO more difficult) question-- How exactly does a good God intentionally create evil and remain good?


With respect to humans, does Islam believe that God creates free will and we then make choices freely, or does Islam believe that God actually determines the outcome of our choices?

Peace Gene,

As a former Christian I actually do understand where you are coming from. It is worded quite differently than what a Christian understands. But, it is quite sensible. I will attempt an extreme simplification.

Allaah(swt) created all things
Evil was created
Therefore Allaah(swt) created it.
It is mans own free will that decides if he will use evil.


Or even more simple:

A man strangles his brother to death.
Allaah(swt) created the evil man
It was the man's own choice to strangle his brother.


Now the second part about free will and predestination. I will let somebody more knowledgeable to answer that. I admit it is a difficult concept for somebody

 

[Grace Seeker]

Peace Gene,

As a former Christian I actually do understand where you are coming from. It is worded quite differently than what a Christian understands. But, it is quite sensible. I will attempt an extreme simplification.

Allaah(swt) created all things
Evil was created
Therefore Allaah(swt) created it.
It is mans own free will that decides if he will use evil.


Or even more simple:

A man strangles his brother to death.
Allaah(swt) created the evil man
It was the man's own choice to strangle his brother.

</p>
Those two illustrations don't tell the same story as far as I'm concerned.
In the first you have Allah actually being the author of evil and therefore would himself be directly responsible for evil; hence one could not say that Allah was good all the time. In the second Allah is not the author of the evil, the man is. And I thought that Islam believed that we are created as followers of Islam and then stray, so how is it that you say that Allah created an evil man?


Woodrow, perhaps if you don't feel qualified to speak on the general subject of predestination you might address the suggestion that sinning was a "GREAT GIFT" and that Shayton was created with the ability to choose to do wrong, but without the "GREAT GIFT" of sinning. How is choosing to do wrong not a sin? And do Muslims really consider sin a gift, just because one is able to repent of it later? Would it not have been better never to have sinned in the first place? Doesn't this imply that the prophets, who Muslims view as having not sinned, have had a "GREAT GIFT" of God withheld from them? All of these things don't just clash with Christianity, but IMHO seem internally inconsistent with other teachings of Islam.

 

[Woodrow]

</p>



Woodrow, perhaps if you don't feel qualified to speak on the general subject of predestination you might address the suggestion that sinning was a "GREAT GIFT" and that Shayton was created with the ability to choose to do wrong, but without the "GREAT GIFT" of sinning. How is choosing to do wrong not a sin? And do Muslims really consider sin a gift, just because one is able to repent of it later? Would it not have been better never to have sinned in the first place? Doesn't this imply that the prophets, who Muslims view as having not sinned, have had a "GREAT GIFT" of God withheld from them? All of these things don't just clash with Christianity, but IMHO seem internally inconsistent with other teachings of Islam.

Peace Gene,

You actually came closer than I did in saying what I am trying to say.

One of our greatest gifts is free choice. Without sin and the ability to sin, free choice would be an impossibility. Yes we could have been created like the angels, perfect and unable to sin. But. we were created with free choice in a world that has both good and evil. Why we were created in this manner I do not know. but I do believe it is for our good and we are the ones who benefit.

As for the nature of the Prophets(PBUT) We believe all Prophets(PBUT) were/are equal. Essentially the same as what you view the Human Nature of Jesus(as) to be. It is not that they were incapable of sin, it is that they would not sin.

From what I have read of them I find that while they were the least in need of repentance, they were the most repentant of mankind.

 

[Grace Seeker]

As for the nature of the Prophets(PBUT) We believe all Prophets(PBUT) were/are equal. Essentially the same as what you view the Human Nature of Jesus(as) to be. It is not that they were incapable of sin, it is that they would not sin.

From what I have read of them I find that while they were the least in need of repentance, they were the most repentant of mankind.

The classic belief among Christians with regard to Jesus' human nature is that he was born in the same sinless state that Adam was created in. Nothing more, nothing less than genuine humanness as God created us all to be born in -- a state that was marred by the fall for the rest of humanity, but that Jesus was spared from inheriting as he was virgin-born.

My understanding of Islam, is that since you don't believe in inherited depravity, that all people are born in the same state of sinless perfection as Adam was. How then is the nature of the prophets any different than the rest of us?


Also, while I understand your statement that "One of our greatest gifts is free choice." And I agree that one of the consequences of free choice is that we are able to sin -- for if we didn't have the ability to choose to sin, then we also wouldn't really be choosing to be righteous when we behaved that way, we would only be what God had created us to be, like a rock or a tree doing its thing, but not able to follow Islam for one must have a will if one is to willing submit one's self to Allah. So, I think you and I are on the same page.

But I'm certainly not on the same page with what Yusuf posted. The idea that there is some "GREAT GIFT" that we received from sinning is completely different from saying that free choice was a gift even if sinned followed from it. Can you explain where that idea comes from? Does it really reflect Islamic teaching, or might it have been the sort of unintentional mis-statement that can easily happen to anyone of us?