Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Woodrow]

The classic belief among Christians with regard to Jesus' human nature is that he was born in the same sinless state that Adam was created in. Nothing more, nothing less than genuine humanness as God created us all to be born in -- a state that was marred by the fall for the rest of humanity, but that Jesus was spared from inheriting as he was virgin-born.

Here we have a bit of an impasse. We do not believe their is any inherited sin. Jesus(as)'s sinless birth was not because he was born of a virgin, but because that is the natural state for all. His birth was miraculous and a sign of his Prophethood, but not the reason he was sinless.

My understanding of Islam, is that since you don't believe in inherited depravity, that all people are born in the same state of sinless perfection as Adam was. How then is the nature of the prophets any different than the rest of us?

Their constant state of repenting. They all lived a life of perfect repentance.

Also, while I understand your statement that "One of our greatest gifts is free choice." And I agree that one of the consequences of free choice is that we are able to sin -- for if we didn't have the ability to choose to sin, then we also wouldn't really be choosing to be righteous when we behaved that way, we would only be what God had created us to be, like a rock or a tree doing its thing, but not able to follow Islam for one must have a will if one is to willing submit one's self to Allah. So, I think you and I are on the same page.

This we do agree on


But I'm certainly not on the same page with what Yusuf posted. The idea that there is some "GREAT GIFT" that we received from sinning is completely different from saying that free choice was a gift even if sinned followed from it. Can you explain where that idea comes from? Does it really reflect Islamic teaching, or might it have been the sort of unintentional mis-statement that can easily happen to anyone of us?[/QUOTE]

I see it as a mixed package. The overall package is the great gift and that is the combination of Sin, free will, repentance etc. I doubt if any single part is the Great Gift in itself, but when the whole package is seen We do have a great gift.

Sort of like getting a wonderful battery operated clock. It is a wonder and the batteries alone would be a gift, but when combined with the clock they make work, we see the whole package as the Great Gift.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Their constant state of repenting. They all lived a life of perfect repentance.

Repentance means a change of direction. If the prophets are born (as supposedly are all the rest of us) without any inherited sin, and if they themselves (unlike the rest of us) live lives that are essentially free from sin and directed toward submitting to Allah, the only change in direction that would be possible would be in the negative direction. Surely this is not what you mean to imply, but whether you realize it or not that is what you are saying when you say that they were constantly repenting.

The only other option available to fit such a description would be just a foreign to the perception that I have of the prophets from Islam, for constant repenting might imply a constant need to repent having fallen into sin and then repenting to return to a life of submission. Neither of these forms of a "constant state of repenting" seem to fit the Islamic description of the prophets, so of what do you see them repenting? Why/how are they in a constant state of changing direction?

I see it as a mixed package. The overall package is the great gift and that is the combination of Sin, free will, repentance etc. I doubt if any single part is the Great Gift in itself, but when the whole package is seen We do have a great gift.

Sort of like getting a wonderful battery operated clock. It is a wonder and the batteries alone would be a gift, but when combined with the clock they make work, we see the whole package as the Great Gift.

But in your illustration the clock and the batteries are indeed both good gifts. So, it sounds like you are still saying that sin is a good gift. I can't get my head around that idea. And if sin was a good gift, why would anyone ever need to repent of it?

For me to make your illustration work, I have to conceive of getting faulty, leaky batteries -- something that is spoiled, and needs to be gotten rid of. Yet, I can't imagine God knowing and intentionally providing us with that sort of gift. So, if we do get faulty and leaky batteries then either (a) they are not a gift from God, but something spoiled by another; (b) if they are from God is speaks negative of God's character as being unable to provide good gifts to us or his able but unwilling and actually intends for us to burden us with something that is defective.

I know that it probably wasn't your intent to see your analogy used to make that sort of case, but it points out again the problem I have with this concept that Islam is trying to present of sin as some sort of gift. Even your way of explaining it leaves me saying that such is NOT the actions of the good and gracious God I know whose will is ever directed to his children's good.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Here is a very curious question. I must admit that it is not my own, but I am curious as to how a Muslim might answer it:

“Who…shall override Allah in any way if He desires to destroy the Isa, and his mother Miriam, and all those who are on earth?”


I expect I know the answer, but what I find curious is that someone should even ask such a question, and I'm wondering if others do as well, plus I'm cuirous as to whether I've properly anticipated what the answer might be.

 

[Woodrow]

Here is a very curious question. I must admit that it is not my own, but I am curious as to how a Muslim might answer it:

“Who…shall override Allah in any way if He desires to destroy the Isa, and his mother Miriam, and all those who are on earth?”


I expect I know the answer, but what I find curious is that someone should even ask such a question, and I'm wondering if others do as well, plus I'm cuirous as to whether I've properly anticipated what the answer might be.

I do believe my response is a bit different from what a Christian would respond.

My Response is: "No one would be able to over ride Allaah(swt), but I have faith he would never do such a thing as he has promised the righteous an eternal place in Jannah"

 

[gmcbroom]

Why would Allah destroy everyone? Not that he couldn't but why?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I do believe my response is a bit different from what a Christian would respond.

Oooooo, now I'm even more curious in what way you think your response is a bit different from what a Christian would respond?

My Response is: "No one would be able to over ride Allaah(swt), but I have faith he would never do such a thing as he has promised the righteous an eternal place in Jannah"

As I read your response, it seems you interpreted the question to imply that in destroying the people on the earth, Allah was also destroying there possibility of any future as well. What if we are talking about it as if Allah were destroying the earth itself and the righteous and unrighteous on earth would then each go to their individual rewards, be it Jannah or Hell? Would that change your response?

 

[Insaanah]

Peace.

Here is a very curious question. I must admit that it is not my own, but I am curious as to how a Muslim might answer it:

“Who…shall override Allah in any way if He desires to destroy the Isa, and his mother Miriam, and all those who are on earth?”

First of all, here's the verse in it's entirity:

Sahih International
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

Muhsin Khan
Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary). Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things.

Pickthall
They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

(Translations of Qur'an 5:17)

This is a rhetorical question to make people think. It isn't saying that Allah will actually do that. Allah is reminding them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power. Had Allah willed to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it? Not Jesus (peace be upon him), not his mother Mary (peace be upon her), nor the rest of mankind put together, nor any individual. All power and Lordship is for Allah alone. The verse then goes on to say that Allah creates what He wills (that includes Jesus, peace be upon him, without a father) . All power sovereignty and dominion belong to Him. The Messiah (peace be upon him) is a sign of the innumerable wonders of God's creation, but in no way is he God, nor does he have any share in divinity.

Peace.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ah, many thanks, Insaanah. In the form that I received the question I had not realized that it came from the Qur'an. I would have previously read it, but I didn't recall it.


That being the case, rhetorical though the question may have originally been, it leads me even more to wonder how a Muslim would project that a Christian would answer this question?

 

[Woodrow]

Oooooo, now I'm even more curious in what way you think your response is a bit different from what a Christian would respond?




As I read your response, it seems you interpreted the question to imply that in destroying the people on the earth, Allah was also destroying there possibility of any future as well. What if we are talking about it as if Allah were destroying the earth itself and the righteous and unrighteous on earth would then each go to their individual rewards, be it Jannah or Hell? Would that change your response?

for the first part. I believe most Christians to consider the question to be nonsensical sort of like asking "Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

For the second part. It would only change my answer slightly. Nobody would be able to stop him, but I trust he would not do so as he is all just and to allow a person to enter heaven without facing all of his trials would be unfair to all those who have had to face them. As for those who would enter hellfire it would still be unjust as they would enter their torment earlier than they would have if they were not destroyed.

 

[Grace Seeker]

for the first part. I believe most Christians to consider the question to be nonsensical sort of like asking "Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

Nah. At least not from my perspective. The nonsense is not found in the idea that God could not destroy the Christ and all else on earth, but in the question gmcbroom has put, Why would he? There are some other theological implications as well, but I'll not go into those here as discussing Christian theology isn't the purpose of this thread.





Any more thoughts on this gift of leaky batteries called sin? Exactly what is it in them that makes them good?

 

[Getoffmyback]

I just read the verse 5.17 of course in arabic . It feels totally different than in english. Such a smart verse seriously . But there's nothing in it about overriding god. From my limited understanding i felt that god is insisting in This verse that he doesn't have a son and insisting to make it more clear when he said that if he desire to destroy jesus and his mom and earth he will do it "rhetoricaly" just to show that there is No emotional attachment between god and jesus . Cos No father will speak like this about destroying his son!

 

[Amigo]

I just read the verse 5.17 of course in arabic . It feels totally different than in english. Such a smart verse seriously . But there's nothing in it about overriding god. From my limited understanding i felt that god is insisting in This verse that he doesn't have a son and insisting to make it more clear when he said that if he desire to destroy jesus and his mom and earth he will do it "rhetoricaly" just to show that there is No emotional attachment between god and jesus . Cos No father will speak like this about destroying his son!

So the love of a father to his son is greater than the love of God to Jesus?

 

[Getoffmyback]

@amigo as you can see my religous views are undisclosed . Of course god loves jesus , everybody loves jesus. except for the jews i guess. It's complicated cos the islamic dogma is different from the christian. I'm not sure if we can compare divine theology with human philosophy!

 

[Amigo]

Well both theology and philosophy are about Truth...

Yes I have noticed your undisclosedness. I don't mind, I was just commenting on what was written.

Peace

 

[Getoffmyback]

@amigo I'm interested in knowing What made you write your comment about the love of a father to his son and the love of god...?

 

[جوري]

So the love of a father to his son is greater than the love of God to Jesus?

I don't is the christian God a narcissist? If Jesus and God are one then self-love is not an admirable trait!

best,

 

[Scimitar]

With respect to humans, does Islam believe that God creates free will and we then make choices freely, or does Islam believe that God actually determines the outcome of our choices?

From what I understand (my knowledge is incomplete) Allaah (SWT) only decides three things for a human, which are predestined.

1) How much wealth you will acquire through life
2) Your marriage(s)
3)Your apppointed time of death

I asked the ulema if whether me making haram money was predestined and he answered NO. He went on to say only the amount was predestined and the method was left up to me. And then he warned me about making haram money... He also said that to have faith kin all affairs.

About free will. Allah has given free will to all able human beings, and created us with faith in our hearts. And a contradiction of desire in the lower heart. So this is why we question everything, we're insatiable by nature - yet we find peace and contentment when we are close to Allaah, the Supreme Creator of All the Worlds, the All Knowing, The Merciful and Most Beneficient.

 

[Scimitar]

Any more thoughts on this gift of leaky batteries called sin? Exactly what is it in them that makes them good?

Sin is on the earth as temptation, an invitation to do evil. Remember, this earth is only our temporary dwelling. Eternal life awaits for the pious and good people. Those who encourage to do good actions and forbid the evil actions get heaven, if their good deeds equate to more than their bad deeds...

If Allah had not put evil on this earth, then there would be no milestone by which to measure good. The whole purpose of our existence is a test, as believed unanimously by the three monotheistic religions. If we cannot determine what is good and what is bad then we are lost. At times, mankind had gotten lost in this way, and Allaah sent prophets to those nations to remind them of them of what came before, to enjoin them in good and to define what is good and bad for them.

It seems fitting to me that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent as a mercy to mankind, and not to a nation - because he is the seal of the prophets, and completes their works.

Sin cannot be a gift, because a gift by definition is something which brings good to the person receiving it. Other wise it is not a gift at all.

 

[Ramadhan]

From what I understand (my knowledge is incomplete) Allaah (SWT) only decides three things for a human, which are predestined. 1) How much wealth you will acquire through life 2) Your marriage(s) 3)Your apppointed time of death

Sorry to butt in, but as far as I know, marriage is not predestined.
Also, it is not wealth, but rizq (sustenance), because sustenance has far reaching meaning compared to wealth.

"Verily the creation of each one of you is brought together in the mother's belly for forty days in the form of a seed, then he is a clot of blood for a like period, then a morsel of flesh for a like period, then there is sent to him the angel who blows the breath of life into him and who is commanded about four matters: to write down his means of livelihood, his life span, his actions, and whether happy or unhappy. By Allah, other than Whom there is no deity, verily one of you behaves like the people of Paradise until there is but an arm's length between him and it, and that which has been written overtakes him and so he behaves like the people of Hell-fire until there is but an arm's length between him and it, and that which has been written overtakes him and so he behaves like the people of Paradise and thus he enters it." (Shahih Muslim)

However, Du'a and good favors may change predestination. I don't want to get involved in the discussion of qada' and qadar because I think I understand the basic of it but it is not good enough to explain it to others.
The main thing is: We strive to live life in the straight path that Allah has commanded for us.

For interest, here's some good articles on Qada' and Qadar: http://www.dinimizislam.com/mobile/detail_en.asp?id=5984

​

 

[SAKER]

why does islam prohibit music?

-I do not agree fully hmme when we recite Quran WE MUST ENHANCING it what we call tajouid -music -

-Some things wid Azan we love Azan with great amazing voice

-Ok I may say it s not haram in it´´s self but the use we will have with it

-SAMI YOUSSEF songs are great music making lot of people know and convert to Islam

-In Islam things are allowed basically الأصل في الأمور الأباحة

But for sure music in a bar is different