Who is the founder of Christianity?
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SalamChristian
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God and Jesus were my answers.
Thank you sincerely to our Muslim brothers who responded honestly and thoughtfully. It was interesting to see how Muslims view Paul. To be fair, I long ago came to Christianity with suspicions about Paul similar to those you have, but I found them to be unfounded. The difficulty is in fully understanding Paul's theology--it takes patience and steadfastness.
Salaam Alaikum
Thank you sincerely to our Muslim brothers who responded honestly and thoughtfully. It was interesting to see how Muslims view Paul. To be fair, I long ago came to Christianity with suspicions about Paul similar to those you have, but I found them to be unfounded. The difficulty is in fully understanding Paul's theology--it takes patience and steadfastness.
Salaam Alaikum
There is only one God. The Creator of heaven and earth and all that is contained therein. He is the God Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am sure this thread isn't mean to devolve into a discussion on the Trinity.
Well, you are partially right with a slight correction: He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).
Hamza Asadullah
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So he is the lord of the lesser God Jesus? Both are Gods? One is a higher God and the other a lower ranked God? That goes against the message of Christ which was ONLY to worship God but today the majority of Christians worship Jesus.
So God was born from Mary who must also be God to have concieved God who then suckled God and bought God up as a baby who knew nothing and God had to be fed and God excreteed waste as God was a human who's father was God but mother was a creation of God who herself should have been God because she concieved God.
None of it makes sense because it is all lies that were attributed to Jesus who NEVER claimed to be God but as supported by the Bible commanded the Jews to worship ONE GOD!
Why does Jesus (PBUH!) in the Lord's prayer address the Lord as "Father" and then refer to the Father's children throughout as "Us" and "We," instead of separating himself from the rest of the children of God, as the Trinity would seem to demand?
If redemption through the blood of Christ, that one member of the Trinity, is all that is necessary for salvation, how are we to explain the many, many occasions in the Gospel that Jesus details the necessity of submitting directly to the One God -- without ever mentioning the role of his (Jesus') redeeming blood?
YieldedOne
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Hmm. So the majority of people here think that Paul of Tarsus is the founder of Christianity, huh? Personally, I would say Jesus, but that's me.
Hmmm...
I wonder if Jesus really talked to him...whachu think, Mustafa? :coolious:
Hmmm...
I wonder if Jesus really talked to him...whachu think, Mustafa? :coolious:
Sol Invictus
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well if the above were true then that might be a problem. good thing for us that christ did actually speak of his redeeming blood:
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. --- Matthew 26:28 NIV
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. --- Mark 10:45 NIV
so no, the fact that christ claimed to die for my sins, your sins and that of the rest of the world is quite clearly taught in the bible.
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According to wikipedia, no, at least not while Jesus (as) walked the earth.
"The turning point for Saul, as recounted in the book of Saint Luke, Acts of Apostles, was during a travel to a city in Asia, named Damascus, as part of the ongoing persecution plan to early and clandestine Christian communities, accompanied by a caravan of men and being ready to violently repress the followers of Jesus of Nazareth, whom he had not ever met nor ever seen, he was converted when the Resurrected Jesus appeared to him in all his luminous glory leaving him blind."
Neither do I see Jesus (as) appearing to Saul (basically a sworn enemy to the early Christians) after his ascension with a new revelation that Jesus (as) did not personally teach the 12 disciples while he was on earth. See "Paul's Gospel" by William R Newell at http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/art_newell_paulsgospel.pdf
Worships of the Evil Pope, Catholics worship a new god/devil the Pope who lies about god saying he has a son which he has no right to say. The Pope follows another devil called Paul May Allah curses him. May Paul & the Popes enjoy the Hell Fire forever. I hope the Catholics wake up to start worshiping the One & Only god Allah (SWT). Let’s all pray that the conquest of Rome will happen in our life time so that we may see truth (Islam) destroy falsehood (Christianity) like how it was done in Constantinople. Both are in hadiths says of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) its just a matter of time when Rome falls. 19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. 19:35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. 19:36 Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. 19:37 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! (The Holy Quran Surah 19 Mary) 5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5:117 "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. (The Holy Quran Surah 5 Al Mâ'idah) 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (The Holy Quran Surah 4 An Nisâ') Read the Real Book of God The Holy Quran not the man-made bible.
Sol Invictus
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yes...your points are just so great. they have completely refuted everything i have said so far. forgive me for even thinking that i could ever prove my position.
now, all joking aside, the claim was made that jesus never spoke of his redeeming blood within the bible, i showed that this was factually untrue. what manner of a response is the above? do you not believe that jesus died on the cross? well that's well and good but it doesn't change the fact that the bible teaches this and proof of this doctrine was requested and so i cited those passages. to be perfectly honest, i really don't know what to make of the above.
Grace Seeker
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I thought I would return here early since you some time ago so kindly asked my opinion regarding the topic under discussion and I have just recently answered something on this topic in a different part of the internet, thus it didn't seem like there was reason to delay posting on the question. It may not quite fit the question but I hope it helps some. Here is what I have written elsewhere:
With regard specifcally to Paul, I consider his encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus to be a real encounter. The degree to which it was on the physical plane or on the spiritual plane is hard for me to say. But as both planes of existence are, to my thinking, very much real it doesn't matter. The encounter was every bit as real as Moses' encounter with God at Mount Sinai. That experience change Paul so that he ever after would think of Jesus as the Lord, a term that I am sure a strict Pharisee like Paul was until then would have known was reserved for the Lord God Almighty and him alone.
Paul then brings this high view of God and of the Torah (particularly the living Torah) with him as he becomes part of the nascent community of people following Jesus. I don't think that Paul had quite as much impact on the community in his own day as his writings have had on it in the succeeding centuries. And those generations have at the same time shaped the way we read Paul. In my opinion, those who don't like Paul (and the many who do) are reading him far too much through the lens of later interpretors rather than the context of a 1st century diaspora Jew in living helenized portions of the Roman Empire.
Hamza Asadullah
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That is because the above is true and the Holy Bible actually makes it quite clear that forgiveness from sins comes from one’s sincerity in seeking forgiveness from Almighty God and from obedience to Him;
“Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High” Psalms 50:13-14
“I desired not sacrifices; I commanded not your fathers, when I stretched forth my hand to bring them out of Egypt, to offer burnt -- offerings to me, but only to obey my voice.” Jeremiah 7:21-22
And as for the innocent being made to pay for the sins of others, the Bible is also quite clear in that respect as well;
“And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, ‘Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.’ And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, ‘Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if Thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of Thy book which Thou hast written.’ And the LORD said unto Moses, ‘Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.’” Exodus 32:30-33
And from the words of Prophet Jesus(As) one can also conclude that his true teachings where in perfect harmony with these mentioned passages;
“For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 5:20
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matthew 6:14-15
So many examples can be used from the Bible that one is hard pressed in understanding how a Christian can claim to adhere to the Bible, and yet follow a totally opposite course. Here is yet further examples of what the Bible says;
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children; neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16
“But the children of the murderers he put not to death; according to that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, ‘The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin.’” 2 Kings 14:6
“But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.” Jeremiah 31:30
Again, the Bible states clearly how salvation can be achieved;
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7
Now with respect to these Biblical passages, it is very clear indeed that the Paulanistic teachings of the Christian Church are in no way harmonious with the teachings of Prophet Jesus(as) and The Holy Bible itself; Paulanist statements such as;
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.’” Galatians 3:13
How Paul can tie that passage in with Prophet Jesus(as) is a far stretch to say the least, as this passage is making reference to the accursed as being the enemies of Almighty God, and to even consider Prophet Jesus(as) as an enemy of Almighty God (Au’dhu-Billah) is to say that he was alienated from His Grace and this does absolutely no honour to this most mighty messenger of Almighty God. This is a serious offence and charge to levy against Prophet Jesus(as), and it does him no honour or respect. Jesus(as) made himself very clear as to what his mission entailed;
“Think not that I am come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these commandments and teach men to do so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 5:17 – 20
And Jesus(as) also made it very clear how one could achieve salvation;
“And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’ And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ He saith unto him, ‘Which?’ Jesus said, ‘Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.’” Matthew 19:16-19
Jesus(as) preached the keeping of all the commandments, which number 613 as opposed to the Christian belief of only 10. Among these commandments, to which the Christians fall short of, is to refrain from alcohol (see Leviticus 10:9, Proverbs 20:1, Isaiah 5:22, Hosea 4:11 & Daniel 1:8), to avoid the flesh of swine (see Leviticus 11:8) and to abide by circumcision (see Genesis 17:10-14 & Luke 2:21).
In no way did Prophet Jesus(as) EVER cater to the pagan belief of original sin and blood atonement, and no better proof of that than his own words that we have just covered.
Taken from Issa Ahmad Khalid
I can understand that Paul did experience a 'paradigm shift' that transformed him from a persecutor of followers of the Way to the strongest proponent of what we now know as Christianity. It is interesting that you mention Paul along with Moses as Mr. Newell also did, "Just as God chose Moses to be the revelator to Israel of the Ten Commandments... so God chose Saul of Tarsus to be the revelator and unfolder of these mighty truths connected with our Lord's death, burial, resurrection, and His ascended Person."
I don't see that Paul brought a high view of the Torah with him as he taught contrary to the Law. I see that he was a strict Jew up to a point and then rejected everything Jewish (circumcision, dietary restrictions, observing Sabbath, etc.) in favor of faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
Grace Seeker
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Indeed, Paul says that he counted all those things you listed as rubbish in comparison. But it remains true that he had a high view of the Torah, for the Torah and the ceremonial law are not equivalent.
The goal of Torah is ultimately to live in a right relationship with God. Paul shows that though he had kept all of these things inviolate most of his life, that it had not helped him to achieve a right relationship with God. He had kept the ceremonial laws, but it did not result in enabling him to keep Torah. But faith does. And Paul uses the example of Abraham who was credited with being righteous BEFORE any law was given or he performed any ritual like circumcision to illustrate that righteousness as demanded by Torah comes not from performing ceremonial rituals, but from having a living faith that lives in connection with God. To Paul, that is what it really means to be a true Jew like he argues Abraham was. Then after that he finally adds one thing new, he says that for him the way to faith that connected him with God was found in Jesus the Messiah.
The goal of Torah is ultimately to live in a right relationship with God. Paul shows that though he had kept all of these things inviolate most of his life, that it had not helped him to achieve a right relationship with God. He had kept the ceremonial laws, but it did not result in enabling him to keep Torah. But faith does. And Paul uses the example of Abraham who was credited with being righteous BEFORE any law was given or he performed any ritual like circumcision to illustrate that righteousness as demanded by Torah comes not from performing ceremonial rituals, but from having a living faith that lives in connection with God. To Paul, that is what it really means to be a true Jew like he argues Abraham was. Then after that he finally adds one thing new, he says that for him the way to faith that connected him with God was found in Jesus the Messiah.
Grace Seeker
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Probably only one or two will be interested in this. But for those who seek to understand (rather than simply argue otherwise) why I say that I don't think that Paul was the founder nor even the reinventor of Christianity, I encourage you to read some scholarly articles that present a different view of Paul than that which you may have previously been exposed to. It is even different than what most Protestant Christians in the last couple of hundred years have thought with regard to Paul and so some have termed it the "new perspective", but really it is a quite old perspective the new one was what was born out of the Protestant Reformation which I think reinterpreted Paul as being more against the Law than he really was.
Thr following article, "Paul and the Jewish Tradition: The Ideology of the Shema," shows Paul as a radical monotheist.
"The 'Righteousness' of Romans and Galatians, and the Gospel of Christ" shows how the core of Paul's message is indeed Jesus' own message applied to the new context of where Paul was engaged in ministry.
"Gospel and Theology in Galatians" examines the Jewish nature of what Paul presents as Gospel.
"Paul's Gospel and Caesar's Empire" explores the counter-imperial aspect of Paul’s essentially Jewish gospel.
"A Remedy for Having Been Born of Woman: Jesus, Gender, and Geneaology in Romans" is a presentation of Paul's views regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus as being best understood from Jewish understanding of sacrifice and adoption. The author is herself a Jewish scholar.
Thr following article, "Paul and the Jewish Tradition: The Ideology of the Shema," shows Paul as a radical monotheist.
"The 'Righteousness' of Romans and Galatians, and the Gospel of Christ" shows how the core of Paul's message is indeed Jesus' own message applied to the new context of where Paul was engaged in ministry.
"Gospel and Theology in Galatians" examines the Jewish nature of what Paul presents as Gospel.
"Paul's Gospel and Caesar's Empire" explores the counter-imperial aspect of Paul’s essentially Jewish gospel.
"A Remedy for Having Been Born of Woman: Jesus, Gender, and Geneaology in Romans" is a presentation of Paul's views regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus as being best understood from Jewish understanding of sacrifice and adoption. The author is herself a Jewish scholar.
You are right, it starts with obedience to Him. First by acknowledging that Jesus is His son. If you sincerely seeks forgiveness from Almighty God, then you should believe in the one way He provided us with doing away with sins. Stop quoting from the Old Testament, because, well, it is the OLD one. Jesus gave a NEW covenant so you should start quoting from the NT to prove your points.
Funny you agree with this passage since it calls God "Father"
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law; being made sin, or a sin-offering, for us, he was made a curse for us; not separated from God, but laid for a time under the Divine punishment. The heavy sufferings of the Son of God, more loudly warn sinners to flee from the wrath to come, than all the curses of the law; for how can God spare any man who remains under sin, seeing that he spared not his own Son, when our sins were charged upon him? Yet at the same time, Christ, as from the cross, freely invites sinners to take refuge in him. (Bible commentary)"
This is the main reason why you should stop copy-pasting from that particular Islamic website or commentator. It is ridden with holes in its logic, makes false assumptions and can't even properly back them up. I know you can't fathom what's just written here, but it's better constructed then the color commentary provided by whomever wrote the article you took.
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The founder of my 2000 year old church, Jesus of course! ;D
not if you're Catholic. Jesus was a monotheistic Jew, Catholicism is clearly NOT monotheistic as you pray to over 300 human beings and Catholic Popes and Kings killed THOUSANDS of former Jews for retaining any of their Jewishness.
and YOUR church isn't 2000 years old, shy by hundred years or. when Constantine moved the capitol to Constantinople would about be the time for the REAL start of the Catholic Church when the Bishop of Rome was trying to leverage his position over the Bishop of Constantinople.
the power vacuum left by those who followed the Emperor to his new digs was eventually filled by the families of the old Roman Senate. it is THEY who are probably the true founders of Catholicism.
and Allah knows best!