The Decline of Christianity in the UK

[Woodrow]

Very good post, Woodrow. I think you have wonderful insight. Christianity does indeed seem to be on the decline. First there was the East-West schism, then the Protestant reformation, then the spawn of Adventists, up to today where the 'Christianized' societies have become increasingly sexually immoral, selfish, substance-abusing, and hateful. These societies are fast departing from any idea of God and embracing Atheism where they take no accountability for their actions.

The bible does mention this as an inevitable path, I am curious as to what the Q'uran does say about it? Will you teach me, Woodrow?

At the moment I am brain dead but there is an ayyat that goes something like:

The Jews will divide into 71 sects but only one will lead to Jannah, The Christians will divide into 72 sects, but only one will lead to Jannah. Islam will divide into 73 sects but only one will lead to Jannah.

I am not certain about the numbers 71,72 and 73 and I believe they may not be intended to be an actual count but rather to show the Abrahamic faiths will divide into many divisions but most will be in error.

I will try to find the ayyat and will add it here as an edit as soon as I find it.

EDIT: Here is the ayyat. It is from the ahadith:

Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one.” The companions asked, ‘Who are they O Messenger of Allah,’ Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “They are those who will be like me and my companions.” (Tirmidi Bab-al-Iman, Bab Iftiraq Vol 2 P-88-89,

 

[Ramadhan]

anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother

It doesnt surprise me if there are sons having sexual relations with their mothers in the west already, what with adoptions (anonymous or non), sperm donors, surrogate mothers, gays and lesbians adopting children and renting wombs or paying for sperms, which cut off links between (biological) parents and their children.
The current trend among celebrities seem to be gays and lesbians buying babies and/or renting wombs.

 

[aadil77]

I think islam will be the new christianity and judaism, we unite all three faiths into one

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

This is relevant to the debate on the decline of Christanity

Cardinal Keith O'Brien criticises secularism

The leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, has used his Easter message to attack "aggressive secularism". It was an issue Pope Benedict warned about on his state visit to Britain last year. Cardinal O'Brien said the enemies of Christianity wanted to "take God from the public sphere". The cardinal has made a reputation for his robust defence of traditionalist Christian teaching.

But BBC religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott said even by Cardinal O'Brien's standards his Easter sermon constituted a vehement and outspoken attack on secularism and what he described as the enemies of the Christian faith in Britain and the power they currently exert.

“Religion must not be taken from the public square”

The Cardinal called on Christians of all denominations to resist the efforts of such people to destroy Christian heritage and culture. In a reference to equality legislation preventing discrimination against homosexual people, Cardinal O'Brien denounced what he claimed was the way Christians had been prevented from acting in accordance with their beliefs because they refuse to endorse such lifestyles. The Cardinal said: "Perhaps more than ever before there is that 'aggressive secularism' and there are those who would indeed try to destroy our Christian heritage and culture and take God from the public square.

"Religion must not be taken from the public square.

"Recently, various Christians in our society were marginalised and prevented from acting in accordance with their beliefs because they were not willing to publicly endorse a particular lifestyle.

"Yes - Christians must work toward that full unity for which Christ prayed - but even at this present time Christians must be united in their common awareness of the enemies of the Christian faith in our country, of the power that they are at present exerting, and the need for us to be aware of that right to equality which so many others cry out for." Cardinal O'Brien reminded his congregation at St Mary's Cathedral in Edinburgh of the plea by the Pope that Christians of different denominations should rediscover their common ancestry to unite in resisting the sidelining of religion.

The Anglican archbishops of Canterbury and York, Dr Rowan Williams and Dr John Sentamu, were also delivering Easter messages on Sunday. The Catholic archbishop of Westminster, the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols, was speaking of his hopes for peace in conflict-hit countries such as Libya, Syria, Afghanistan and Ivory Coast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13179851

 

[FS123]

I think the following hadith might be relevant:
Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “Beware of going to extremes (in religion), for those before you were only destroyed through excessiveness.” [An-Nasai]

Ibn Taymiya says regarding this hadith of the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam), “His saying ‘Beware of going to extremes in religion’ is a general prohibition applying to all types of extremes, whether in beliefs or works.” [Fayd al-Qadir sharh al-Jami’ al-saghir]

It creates two potential problems in my opinion:
First, believers start to move away from actual teachings in the name of piety, which is difficult to differentiate from the true teaching for most people. Faulty teaching that looks pious might be taken as true religion after sometime and marginalize the religion in the mainstream. In Christianity it is different because they have concept of God that makes problem for lot of people just to highlight that although both things happened in Christianity. But in Islam issue could come similar to Judaism where is concept of God is not the main issue for decline.

Second, it can alienate the masses and cause backlash which is related to previous point. But once a trend starts it makes people bias even when some people start to realize true teaching and start to call back people, so it is difficult for majority to come back. Then it starts to create other problems like going into another extreme where religious people make the religion marginalized.

Just my opinion and there might be other factors behind that hadith.

 

[gmcbroom]

Secularism and to a degree religious tolerance do seem to be the key issues for the decline. After all if it becomes taboo to discuss ones faith in public then when one person or group sees another misrepresent the faith and their not allowed to refute it because it may offend then false doctrines start to pop up because they start to feel good or fair. Christians throughout the world seem to seek worldly acceptance rather than divine acceptance. Jesus warned us against that. He even said the wide gate leads to destruction and for christians to strive to go through the narrow gate though its harder. This luke warm christianity where different views and yes faiths are put on the same level as say christianity sadly may lead to destruction, thats assigning partners to God who has no partners as any muslim would tell you. For all christians should choose to be hot not luke warm. However, all is not lost; but it will take faith.

Peace be with you

 

[Ramadhan]

Christians throughout the world seem to seek worldly acceptance rather than divine acceptance.

This is not new. Your Saul of Tarsus started this by telling lies and saying Jesus (pbuh) abrogating moses laws for the gentiles in order to attract worldly acceptance. And the decline was sealed by the romans who preferred the type of christianity that appealed to their latin mythology.

 

[Getoffmyback]

There is nothing multicultural in the mid east when the church or mosque are in control of civil laws , simple example "civil marriage is not allowed". I only call it religious feudalism and it's not helping people in life actually it's complicating life .

You see people writing about the decline of their religion it's only a way to erect emotions of the followers in an attempt to recruit them in a struggle of regaining religious political powers. So you tell me that multiculturalism is in harmony in mid east countries well of course since politics and civil laws are controlled by religion. But it's not in harmony in england of course cos the religious feudalists want to control civil laws and politics .

 

[JPR]

Any religion in the western world is declining. True 100% muslims abiding to Islam law in the west are very very rare. I know a lot of people who claim to be muslims yet go out and drink and have sex just like anyone and when I tell them how they're breaking their own laws, the usual answer is "well I don't eat pork at least" because that's the easiest thing to do.

Of course the article will talk about Christianity, what else in the UK? Would anyone make that same article using Saudi Arabia as the country for the decline of Christianity? Trumble was right when he asked what will it bring to people interacting together? More hate, more peace? Better understanding?

 

[جوري]

Any religion in the western world is declining. True 100% muslims abiding to Islam law in the west are very very rare. I know a lot of people who claim to be muslims yet go out and drink and have sex just like anyone and when I tell them how they're breaking their own laws, the usual answer is "well I don't eat pork at least" because that's the easiest thing to do

That is just the company you keep.
Like the story of the two youths who set out to Lebanon each coming to speak of their travels to the scholar. The first says, Lebanon is a land of Debauchery, brothels and immoral women and the scholar said you speak the truth, the other youth, said my experience was the opposite, Lebanon is a land of knowledge, its people are pious its women are mothers and sisters and the scholar said you speak the truth, to which the first youth replied how can we both be correct? and the scholar said you've both found what you were looking for in Lebanon..

With that not only is your experience subjective it is also extremely negligible. There is 1.86 billion Muslims in the world, who are a very diverse bunch. Not everyone advertises that they're Muslim, and not only have you not encountered every Muslim, I'll go out on a limb and say the Muslims that you have encountered echo your own person. Since people do end up finding exactly what they seek!

and on a side note, Christianity is making a decline in all of Europe not just England. Google any country in Europe and look at its demographics and state religion you'll find a decline of 1% a year.. It is because Christianity doesn't make sense, not because of some evil secular plan!

best,

 

[جوري]

To demonstrate the point I made at the end of post # 30
random country 'Slovenia'

we find:

Like elsewhere in Europe, the affiliation to Roman Catholicism is dropping: in 1991, there were 71.6% self-declared Catholics, which means a drop of more than 1% annually.[101]

Source

 

[Getoffmyback]

@jpr religion is declining world wide. Untill now i don't blame religion whichever But i blame the whims of time and people.

 

[JPR]

With that not only is your experience subjective it is also extremely negligible. There is 1.86 billion Muslims in the world, who are a very diverse bunch. Not everyone advertises that they're Muslim, and not only have you not encountered every Muslim, I'll go out on a limb and say the Muslims that you have encountered echo your own person. Since people do end up finding exactly what they seek

No, I actually hang around christians who decided to live their faith according to the Bible. Those muslims I talked about are mostly either friends of friends I see once in a while or co-worker(s). My point was just that like christians everywhere, not all muslims are stellar exemplars of what their faith entails. Many muslims can put many christians to shame by their fervor and their keeping of Allah's commands, and many christians can do the same thing to many muslims. Just like many buddhists can do the same, etc...

In the west, the society and it's laws give everybody a chance to choose how they want to live their life and the answer from the great majority is a non-religious life, be it christian or muslim, you just can't escape that fact, no matter how or what you call yourself. I won't even begin to touch on the Middle-East.

P.S.: Don't go out on your limbs no more!

 

[جوري]

No, I actually hang around christians who decided to live their faith according to the Bible. Those muslims I talked about are mostly either friends of friends I see once in a while or co-worker(s). My point was just that like christians everywhere, not all muslims are stellar exemplars of what their faith entails. Many muslims can put many christians to shame by their fervor and their keeping of Allah's commands, and many christians can do the same thing to many muslims. Just like many buddhists can do the same, etc...

In the west, the society and it's laws give everybody a chance to choose how they want to live their life and the answer from the great majority is a non-religious life, be it christian or muslim, you just can't escape that fact, no matter how or what you call yourself. I won't even begin to touch on the Middle-East.

P.S.: Don't go out on your limbs no more!

How do you reconcile 'friends of friends' or co-workers with:

uslims abiding to Islam law in the west are very very rare

To know such intimate social details of folks you hardly hang with makes you one of two things and neither is flattering!
The law has nothing to do with self-governance.. a person who is shy is shy whether or not a gentleman's only club is right across the street and a street walker is a street walker even if she lives across from a convent.

Of course I'll go out on a limb.. being factual is always better than being subjective when entering a debate!

best,

 

[Zafran]

No, I actually hang around christians who decided to live their faith according to the Bible. Those muslims I talked about are mostly either friends of friends I see once in a while or co-worker(s). My point was just that like christians everywhere, not all muslims are stellar exemplars of what their faith entails. Many muslims can put many christians to shame by their fervor and their keeping of Allah's commands, and many christians can do the same thing to many muslims. Just like many buddhists can do the same, etc...

In the west, the society and it's laws give everybody a chance to choose how they want to live their life and the answer from the great majority is a non-religious life, be it christian or muslim, you just can't escape that fact, no matter how or what you call yourself. I won't even begin to touch on the Middle-East.

P.S.: Don't go out on your limbs no more!

Rule number 1 in any religion never talk about how religious you are - rule number 2 - dont Judge people - as your bible says

"1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Mattew 7

 

[YoungCatholic]

Yes, it is sad. The UK was once a very catholic nation, if it weren't for King Henry VIII this country would be mostly catholic today. Queen Mary, a.k.a Bloody Mary, is also partly responsible for Catholicism's downfall in the UK. She ordered the deaths of many protestants, thus putting the RCC in a bad light in the UK, and if it weren't for her, I'm sure Catholicism wouldn't be as dead as it is the UK today. It's something we catholics just have to pray for.

It must be glad knowing that you guys have the fastest growing religion...I'm so jealous Well, the good news for us catholics is that our religion continues to grow (19 million new catholics last year). And that's a good thing!

 

[Ramadhan]

Well, the good news for us catholics is that our religion continues to grow (19 million new catholics last year). And that's a good thing!

Yeah... you should thank the pope for banning contraceptives for that growth. How's catholicism doing in your country, the Philippines?

 

[YoungCatholic]

Yeah... you should thank the pope for banning contraceptives for that growth. How's catholicism doing in your country, the Philippines?

Well it is a catholic country, so of course it's doing great. Rural and Urban areas, churches are always packed during mass, some people even have to stand up. Processions are common and everything is just so...catholic. The RH bill isn't even gonna pass as it's causing too much controversy. I wish I could say the same for other countries though

And yes, we believe that human sexuality is sacred and should be used with the desire of procreation.

 

[Ramadhan]

And yes, we believe that human sexuality is sacred and should be used with the desire of procreation.

Based on this statement of yours, does this mean that christians are not supposed to have sex unless they want to have children?

 

[YoungCatholic]

Okay, maybe I should've been a little bit clearer.

Catholics are not allowed to use artificial means of birth control. That would be considered non-procreative. So, condoms, IUDs, birth control pills, are all not allowed. Oral sex is not forbidden by the Church. Married couples can have oral sex as long as it's used as foreplay, and as long as sex *ends* in the marital embrace. Catholics are allowed to space, delay (temorarily or permanently) having children, (with serious reasons, such as financial, medical, emotional, etc) by using natural family planning. That means, you learn signs of fertility and track them and not have sex during fertile times. This the church allows. Some people may think this is "non-procreative sex", but this is not true. And the reason why is not "non-procreative sex" is that you still have to be open to life. In other words, if you don't follow the signs of fertility correctly, or chance it because you can't control yourself, and you become pregnant, you have to accept that pregnancy.

That doesn't mean you have to intend to conceive every single time you have sex with your spouse. That means that when having sex with your spouse, you have to be open to life, and only use natural means to prevent pregnancy.

I hope that helped you out