Forgiveness vs Atonement

[brmm]

In other words, shirk is the sin of being Christian; Christianity as defined by Islam of course.

Hello Amigo, nice to chat with u again, welcome back

Any one, under any title or name even if he called himself Muslim, who believes that there is any kind of god beside Allah, he would be considered as a great sinner (committing shirk).
Q 04:48 "Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin"

If the Christian wish to believe in one (1 only) god then they will not be in this category and if they believe in Trinity they will be, unfortunately, withing this category, and thats why we are writing in this forum.

BRMM

 

[brmm]

I forget to say something, In Islam we do not have the name Christianity in the Holy Quran.

The word used by the Quran is "Nasaraa" which means the helpers/ supporters of Jesus. The word Christian used in the translations because the non-Arabic do not understand the word Nasaraa. Christ supposed to be from the Greek word Christos which supposed to be mean "Messiah", but I do not know why the Bible have used Christ and Messiah together if they are the same word exactly,

John 04:25 "The woman said, "I know the Messiah is coming--the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us"

BRMM

 

[MustafaMc]

Christianity exists before the Bible. If what I am saying is true, it does not need the biblical verses to back it up.

I can tell you are not from among 'The People of the Scripture'. What is the source of the authority in anything you say? I assume it is direct revelation to you just like to Saul. If you do not have a documented source for what you say, then you can easily make it up as you go - which seems to me what you are doing. I still think you are a Mason or something else besides what you say.

 

[brmm]

I forget to say something, In Islam we do not have the name Christianity in the Holy Quran.

The word used by the Quran is "Nasaraa" which means the helpers/ supporters of Jesus. The word Christian used in the translations because the non-Arabic do not understand the word Nasaraa. Christ supposed to be from the Greek word Christos which supposed to be mean "Messiah", but I do not know why the Bible have used Christ and Messiah together if they are the same word exactly,

John 04:25 "The woman said, "I know the Messiah is coming--the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us"

BRMM

Good news
I was right, Alhamdolillah/thanks Allah, I have read the Aramaic Bible and I could not find the part "the one who is called Christ" and this gives explanation for every thing.

Is it that easy to add words to God's book ?!

BRMM

 

[brmm]

Good news
I was right, Alhamdolillah/thanks Allah, I have read the Aramaic Bible and I could not find the part "the one who is called Christ" and this gives explanation for every thing.

Is it that easy to add words to God's book ?!

BRMM

I just want to make everything clear, I have checked [TO BE FAIR WITH MYSELF ALSO], if they have this part "the one who is called Christ" as a part of the text or as an extra explanation for the verse.
I found that they have add it as a part of the text, because they have it in all the translations. except for one, who have wrote it at the end also of the verse.

New International Version (©1984)
The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
New Living Translation (©2007)
The woman said, "I know the Messiah is coming--the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

English Standard Version (©2001)
The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."

International Standard Version (©2008)
The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming, who is being called 'Christ'. When that person comes, he will explain everything."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The woman said to him, "I know that the Messiah is coming. When he comes, he will tell us everything." ([Messiah] is the one called [Christ].)

King James Bible
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

American King James Version
The woman said to him, I know that Messias comes, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

American Standard Version
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things.

Bible in Basic English
The woman said to him, I am certain that the Messiah, who is named Christ, is coming; when he comes he will make all things clear to us.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ); therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Darby Bible Translation
The woman says to him, I know that Messias is coming, who is called Christ; when he comes he will tell us all things.

English Revised Version
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (which is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things.

Webster's Bible Translation
The woman saith to him, I know that Messiah cometh, who is called Christ; when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Weymouth New Testament
"I know," replied the woman, "that Messiah is coming--'the Christ,' as He is called. When He has come, He will tell us everything."

World English Bible
The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah comes," (he who is called Christ). "When he has come, he will declare to us all things."

Young's Literal Translation
The woman saith to him, 'I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;'

BRMM

 

[Ramadhan]

In other words, shirk is the sin of being Christian; Christianity as defined by Islam of course.

shirk is ascribing partner(s) to Allah.
A muslim can also commit shirk. In fact these days many muslims do, although it may not be so clear. Many muslims who go to certain graves of dead people who they consider as special to ask for intercessions and blessings, for example, are committing shirk.
Obviously, as a catholic, you are committing shirk by worshiping a man (jesus) as god, as well as a host of other dead people like Mary (p) and other saints.

By the way amigo, can you please answer my question about God who died in the other thread? or there are things in christianity that one should not ask?

 

[Amigo]

shirk is ascribing partner(s) to Allah.
A muslim can also commit shirk. In fact these days many muslims do, although it may not be so clear. Many muslims who go to certain graves of dead people who they consider as special to ask for intercessions and blessings, for example, are committing shirk.
Obviously, as a catholic, you are committing shirk by worshiping a man (jesus) as god, as well as a host of other dead people like Mary (p) and other saints.

By the way amigo, can you please answer my question about God who died in the other thread? or there are things in christianity that one should not ask?

No, In Christianity you are allowed to ask anything. And whoever asks, will receive an answer, one just have to be sincere, if you are sincere you will continue the conversation, you are the one who halted the conversation, not me.

 

[Amigo]

I can tell you are not from among 'The People of the Scripture'. What is the source of the authority in anything you say? I assume it is direct revelation to you just like to Saul. If you do not have a documented source for what you say, then you can easily make it up as you go - which seems to me what you are doing. I still think you are a Mason or something else besides what you say.

Truth does not need any support. Documented sources need the support and back up of truth not vice-versa.

 

[MustafaMc]

Truth does not need any support. Documented sources need the support and back up of truth not vice-versa.

How do you discern Truth from falsehood? Logic tells me that it is more truthful that 1) God is one, indivisible, incomparable, begets not and is not begotten than to say 2) God is one expressed in three independent persons with one person submitting his will to the Other, even though God is One, He says to another person, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased", becoming man and hence comparable to any man who ever walked the earth, being begotten and born of a woman. Is God the Author of confusion? The Christian concept of Trinity is confusing and cannot be logically explained by even the Pope himself. The Islamic concept of Tawhid is not confusing and can be understood and explained by a young child.

 

[Ramadhan]

No, In Christianity you are allowed to ask anything. And whoever asks, will receive an answer, one just have to be sincere, if you are sincere you will continue the conversation, you are the one who halted the conversation, not me.

Amigo, are you sure you are a christian?
Because jesus taught sincerity and honesty. And there's nothing sincere nor honest about your post above.
I did ask What happened to the universe when God died, and instead of receiving answer from you, in return you asked me few questions about the definitions of God, die, the universe, etc, of which I answered all politely.
And then you just disappeared without giving me the answer.
Everyone can read it here please http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...trinity-130-pages-do-not-miss-slide-show.html

So I am asking politely and with sincerity again, would please go back to that thread and answer my question as you have promised me?
Thank you.

 

[Amigo]

Amigo, are you sure you are a christian?
Because jesus taught sincerity and honesty. And there's nothing sincere nor honest about your post above.
I did ask What happened to the universe when God died, and instead of receiving answer from you, in return you asked me few questions about the definitions of God, die, the universe, etc, of which I answered all politely.
And then you just disappeared without giving me the answer.
Everyone can read it here please http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...trinity-130-pages-do-not-miss-slide-show.html

So I am asking politely and with sincerity again, would please go back to that thread and answer my question as you have promised me?
Thank you.

Hi brother, I have just scanned that thread 3 times. I don't see anywhere an answer to the questions in my post # 30, 3rd paragraph. Instead of answering them, you went aside and start intimidating me with this and that. I even followed you on your distracting comments hoping that we were coming back to more serious conversation, but you never come back. Instead you keep telling me that I haven't answered the first question...If you are serious about your question, then you will notice that my questions are serious and seriously relevant to your own question. Answering those questions is my way to sharing the answer with you. As long as they are not answered, you are simply demonstrating your lack on real interest in the answer to your question, and therefore lack of interest in the answer. If you want me to answer you, you have to collaborate. I can use all legitimate ways to answer your questions, including using questions to focus attention to the answer. If you don't want to look there, you are not ready for the answer. Distractions or intimidation don't work...

 

[brmm]

Amigo ... I am waiting in the queue after brother Ramadhan opcorn:

BRMM

 

[Amigo]

How do you discern Truth from falsehood? Logic tells me that it is more truthful that 1) God is one, indivisible, incomparable, begets not and is not begotten than to say 2) God is one expressed in three independent persons with one person submitting his will to the Other, even though God is One, He says to another person, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased", becoming man and hence comparable to any man who ever walked the earth, being begotten and born of a woman. Is God the Author of confusion? The Christian concept of Trinity is confusing and cannot be logically explained by even the Pope himself. The Islamic concept of Tawhid is not confusing and can be understood and explained by a young child.

I discern the truth by considering whether people are alreay consistent with simple facts where they are and truthful about them before they move on to the next things.
I thought we are talking about scripture and truth. I consider your jump to the trinity a distraction and I will not follow you there. If you want to talk about the trinity, open a thread about it or bring it in one that may already exist, and let's hold a conversation in proper context without random evasions and distraction. Consistency is also part of discerning truthfullness.

 

[Amigo]

Amigo ... I am waiting in the queue after brother Ramadhan opcorn:

BRMM

Ok, I am coming...I hope you are not looking for violent confrontations though; I don't believe violence is compatible with religious conversation that respect truth. So I hope you did not mean what you expressed in your smilies in the other thread

 

[Amigo]

Hello Amigo, nice to chat with u again, welcome back

Any one, under any title or name even if he called himself Muslim, who believes that there is any kind of god beside Allah, he would be considered as a great sinner (committing shirk).
Q 04:48 "Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin"

If the Christian wish to believe in one (1 only) god then they will not be in this category and if they believe in Trinity they will be, unfortunately, withing this category, and thats why we are writing in this forum.

BRMM

Well, as I commented, that's Muslim belief and Muslim belief about Christianity. That's all.
Personnaly one of the first sign I know about the truthfulness of someone, is how they 'get'/understand me. If someone says they are truthful while they are speaking/believing lies about me I know they are false. Simple. I know myself, and I know what I believe about God. You are speaking from books, and theological terms like atonment, etc. How if I never went to school or don't speak English? do you suppose only English speaking people are Christians or that Christianity is founded on any human alphabet of syllables and sounds? God and man are both beyond syllabes when it comes to communication and understanding.

 

[MustafaMc]

I discern the truth by considering whether people are alreay consistent with simple facts where they are and truthful about them before they move on to the next things.
I thought we are talking about scripture and truth. I consider your jump to the trinity a distraction and I will not follow you there. If you want to talk about the trinity, open a thread about it or bring it in one that may already exist, and let's hold a conversation in proper context without random evasions and distraction. Consistency is also part of discerning truthfullness.

I was still talking about Truth and how you discern what is true and what is false. Since scripture is irrelevant to you, I thought that logic would be useful in your discerning of Truth. I used the Trinity vs Tawhid argument to show that the Islamic position was more logical and therefore more truthful.

The question remains, "What is your standard for discerning Truth from falsehood?"

 

[Amigo]

I was still talking about Truth and how you discern what is true and what is false. Since scripture is irrelevant to you, I thought that logic would be useful in your discerning of Truth. I used the Trinity vs Tawhid argument to show that the Islamic position was more logical and therefore more truthful.

The question remains, "What is your standard for discerning Truth from falsehood?"

The standard can be described in many ways. Human words are limited.
For now, not adding or substracting anything from the truth already known and evident and staying consistent, that's the standard.
Falsehood consist of adding or substracting about the truth.
Discernment consists in being sincere, honest, truthful, and struggling to stay on this path.
More truth are found on the path of truth, not away from it. So discernment is like watching and waiting, like a driver who look at signs as he goes and wait until he gets where he need.
In matters of truth, we don't know the end, we only know that we can reach it by staying on the right path: truthfullness, honesty, sincerity.
This is how God guide people and this is my standard of discerning right guidance. I don't follow anyone who approuve/practice any falsehood.

 

[Tyrion]

The standard can be described in many ways. Human words are limited.
For now, not adding or substracting anything from the truth already known and evident and staying consistent, that's the standard.
Falsehood consist of adding or substracting about the truth.
Discernment consists in being sincere, honest, truthful, and struggling to stay on this path.
More truth are found on the path of truth, not away from it. So discernment is like watching and waiting, like a driver who look at signs as he goes and wait until he gets where he need.
In matters of truth, we don't know the end, we only know that we can reach it by staying on the right path: truthfullness, honesty, sincerity.
This is how God guide people and this is my standard of discerning right guidance. I don't follow anyone who approuve/practice any falsehood.

Sorry, I had to... Did anybody else get what he was trying to say? Amigo, you keep talking about truth, but what exactly IS truth to you? You don't seem to be answering anything... Or maybe I'm just not getting it?

 

[Ramadhan]

Hi brother, I have just scanned that thread 3 times. I don't see anywhere an answer to the questions in my post # 30, 3rd paragraph. Instead of answering them, you went aside and start intimidating me with this and that. I even followed you on your distracting comments hoping that we were coming back to more serious conversation, but you never come back. Instead you keep telling me that I haven't answered the first question...If you are serious about your question, then you will notice that my questions are serious and seriously relevant to your own question. Answering those questions is my way to sharing the answer with you. As long as they are not answered, you are simply demonstrating your lack on real interest in the answer to your question, and therefore lack of interest in the answer. If you want me to answer you, you have to collaborate. I can use all legitimate ways to answer your questions, including using questions to focus attention to the answer.

Amigo, I asked ONE simple question about concept of God in christianity, that is: what happened when God died.

Instead of answering me and giving explanations you started to ask me questions. Now you said my answer to your questions is conditions whether I can receive the answer. So, does this mean your answer depends on my definitions and does this mean that your answer changes depending on the answers given to your questions?
Does this mean the answer of the question a Hindu different than the answer given to me?
Or that the answer to a buddhist different than the answer of the question to am agnostic?
what happened if someone cannot answer your questions, does this mean they have no right to ask their question or not ready to receive the answer?
Does this mean that the truth in christianity changes and mutable?
In Islam we believe that the truth does not change and immutable.

I asked you who ran the universe when God died.
and instead of starting to explain your answer, you asked me some questions:
what is death? which I answered by giving you definition from dictionary
what the universe? ditto as above
what is god? which you said yo dont need me to answer because you said I would give you definition from dictionary again, which is correct
and then you asked me to look for answers in the Qur'an. Well, the Qur'an says that God does not and never die, so that's why I asked you the question: I am interested to understand the consequences for the creation caused by the death of God.

So will you now go back to this thread and answer my question please because I don't want to derail this forgiveness and atonement thread.?
You owed it to me because you promised me.

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...inity-130-pages-do-not-miss-slide-show-5.html

Can you please go back there and continue with the conversation?
What would Jesus do? Do you think he would renege on his promise and not give answer to anyone who seek it?

If you don't want to look there, you are not ready for the answer.

so the truth of christianity cannot be given to anyone who ask for it, that there conditions that must be fulfilled by the person who ask question, is that it?

In Islam, anyone can ask any question and receive answer without having to fulfill any arbitrary conditions.

 

[brmm]

Personnaly one of the first sign I know about the truthfulness of someone, is how they 'get'/understand me.

So if any one can't understand you will be a liar ?
According to you, all the teachers in the world who can not explain the materials to their students in an easy way and their students can't understand them are liars. This is only one example, then all the word will be liars.

I think you never answered any question even though you have wrote a lot.
You did not put comments on any video or material I have sent.

My words, are not God's words or prophet Mohammed's words, the same for you, your words are not God's words or prophet Jesus words, so if you need to debate and defend your belief, YOU ARE MOST WELCOME AND WE WOULD LIKE A LOT TO HEAR FROM YOU, just be sure to submit your quotes with verses from the Bible as evidences otherwise you can fill books of your words without value.

If you need to answer my questions, please come with verses from the Bible or say I do not have it in a clear way.

If you need to criticized Islam also do the same, come with verses from the Holy Quran or the prophet words and we will defend our belief.
In Islam blue can not be red by faith, and God's words are the law in this world.

Most probably, I have finished with you, because < I think > you will never answer any question and you will never submit verses from the Bible.

And Inshallah Allah will open your heart for the truth, because our duties as Muslims is to give direction guidance to our brothers in humanity.

BRMM