what is ur opinion ?

[سيف الله]

Salaam

I think in eastern and Islamic culture the institution of family is considered sacred, we have a more communitarian ethic. Not so much in western societies particularly since the cultural revolution of the 1960s which led to the rise of individualism, consumerism, materialism at the expense of traditional values and institutions like marriage. These factors among many other has led to a major breakdown in the family unit, with serious consequences. For example:

Consequences of the Breakdown of Marriage and Family (UK)

http://www.islamicboard.com/family-society/134306448-consequences-breakdown-marriage-family-uk.html

Having said that there are variations within western societies eg. Catholics place immense importance on family and marriage

Sometimes relationship fails, we have to accept that but we shouldn't say that's a good thing and I hope we as a community maintain the importance and sanctity of family and marriage. Consequences are too dire to think about.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

@Mad Scientist She said some and clearly expressed it was based on her experience.

Also, it is not as simple as wife and husband agrees with it when you take societal and family pressure into account. Not that I am against the practice...

And this thread is creating fitna.

So this is what I gather what the purpose of this thread is:
East VS West
Female VS male
My point is clearly proven when some poster ignores the word some when another poster expresses her view and start arguing and posting hadith about most people in hell are women.

 

[Perseveranze]

Salaam,

Can you please post the Hadiths? I too noticed countries like India adopting western values.

The prophet (S.A.W.) said, "You will surely follow the ways, steps, or traditions of those who came before you, span by span and yard by yard (very closely) even if they entered a lizard's hole you will enter it." The companions asked, "Oh prophet, you mean the Jews and Christians?" so he answered, "Who else!" [Reported by Imam Bukhari]

The second hadith is "He is not one of us, he who imitates others. Do not imitate either the Jews or the Christians." [Reported by ImamsTermithy & Abu-Dawd]The third hadith is "If one imitates another nation he will be from them." [Reported by Imam Abu-Dawd]

There's others too, but can't find atm.

 

[CosmicPathos]

@Mad Scientist She said some and clearly expressed it was based on her experience.

Also, it is not as simple as wife and husband agrees with it when you take societal and family pressure into account. Not that I am against the practice...

And this thread is creating fitna.

So this is what I gather what the purpose of this thread is:
East VS West
Female VS male
My point is clearly proven when some poster ignores the word some when another poster expresses her view and start arguing and posting hadith about most people in hell are women.

Well that means its high time for her to broaden her experiences of this world and all the people in it.

 

[Ramadhan]

To be honest I think in the West there are more divorces because of: ----More freedom to divorce ----Less laws discouraging divorce ----Marriage at an earlier stage. More freedom to divorce meaning over at the west less people are Muslim which means less abide by the rules and regulations of islam druing divorce. So a muslim man would be more discouraged to divorce his wife because he might face the consequences. Another thing is that some marry of their parents; as in their parents set them up with a bride or a groom and they get married. This in some cases, although not all, discourages the groom or bride from divorce because of political, social or family ties. In the West there less laws that discourage men and women from divorce. In fact, people divorce almost always because they want a sum of money granted to them because of the divorce. ( Could someone tell me what that is called?) As everyone knows people marry at younger ages over at the US, and that usually results in a divorce when the couple realises what a huge mistake it was. More marriages=More divorces.

You are really talking non sense and without evidence.
You are speaking of "the rules and regulations of islam druing divorce", do you really have any idea how divorce process work in Islam?
I think you mixed up between Islam and Roman catholic.

In fact, divorce procedure in Islam is the easiest, while the divorce process in the western countries can go on for years because of court proceedings related to the wealth split up etc.

Whataver the explanation of the diffferences in divorce rates between western and muslim countries, it is definitely NOT because of "divorce rules and regulations in Islam".

 

[tigerkhan]

dear respected members, thanks alot for ur replies. that are really helping esp just a guy, ardianto, pious_girl86, don the wise and.....
i request u all plz be on topic and be gentle. we are not here to offend any culture or person. no1 culture or person is perfect but we have to learn and struggle for perfection.
jazak allah o khair.

 

[Ramadhan]

As everyone knows people marry at younger ages over at the US, and that usually results in a divorce when the couple realises what a huge mistake it was. More marriages=More divorces.

I don't know what the average age of first marriage in the US, but I am sure it is higher than average age for first marriage in the largest muslim country, Indonesia.
So again, this is not the explanation why divorce rates in the US is higher than those in the muslims countries.

I think this explanation by Junon makes more sense:

I think in eastern and Islamic culture the institution of family is considered sacred, we have a more communitarian ethic. Not so much in western societies particularly since the cultural revolution of the 1960s which led to the rise of individualism, consumerism, materialism at the expense of traditional values and institutions like marriage. These factors among many other has led to a major breakdown in the family unit, with serious consequences. For example:

 

[May Ayob]

Salaam- Peace be to all.

this is a very good topic
I honestly belive that there are many many factors into this terrible ending of marriages , i'll list out some of the things from my opinion:
1. To much expectations for the spouse either physically , materialisiticly or the way they treat you: it is very sad and dissapointing that we have sometype of emptiness inside of us , and we expect every thing from that person not putting in mind that they are a human being , so we want them to please us in every way , this goes for both men and women , we also tend to forget about character which is the most important thing and most of us only know about marriage from western and even eastern movies and media.
2.The money play a big factor because both the man and the woman belive that the marriage is not going to be as ideal as they imagine unless they have money for vacations and what not , as mentioned before the lack of even knowing what getting married means , where did all the values of sharing your life and sacrificing for the other persons wellbeing and happiness.
3. Stereotypes mainly from Tv series ( for the female / sometimes the male as well) that the inlwas are your number one enemies and they are who are going to cause you problems in your marriage / this is not true and honestly i belive that if you do love the person who is your spouse as you claim the it is a priority to share the same feelings for his/her family there should be mutual respect and affection between both parties and they have to treat each other in a good way just as islam has prescribed.
4. The free mixing and mingling we have in BOTH socities today is one of the major reasons why many people can't seem to live with each other as spouses , the lack of trust/ selfish jealousy and many other disease that can poisine the marriage , which can also lead to if not horrific crimes against both parties. yes trust is abig issue for both a man can freely mingle with women in his youth but SubhanAllah when you ask him about his future wife he's looking for he wants a pure woman who never or rarley looks and speaks to other men i mean i'm sorry but what did he do and what effort did he pay to deserve this? i think this is not really fair.
5. Both parties thinking that they can own each other and also the lack of respect for privacy , fetching the spouse's bags and personal thing and what not can be another intimidating thing that causes or may lead to a divorce.
6. when the woman doesnt really lkove the man and she is inlone with another but the former has big wealth and she knows that she is getting ahlf he's property after divorce so she makes up every reason..

 

[Who Am I?]

I don't know what the average age of first marriage in the US, but I am sure it is higher than average age for first marriage in the largest muslim country, Indonesia.
So again, this is not the explanation why divorce rates in the US is higher than those in the muslims countries.

From Wikipedia (take that for what it's worth):

United States: 28.4 for men, 26.5 for women. (2009)

 

[ardianto]

2.The money play a big factor because both the man and the woman belive that the marriage is not going to be as ideal as they imagine unless they have money for vacations and what not , as mentioned before the lack of even knowing what getting married means , where did all the values of sharing your life and sacrificing for the other persons wellbeing and happiness.

From what I found in my place, the big factor is not the husband's income, but the husband's responsibility to gain an income. A wife who has poor husband who work, never request divorce (except some wives who have "blind by dunya). But if the husband is lazy to make money, it will becomes a big factor that motivate the wife to request divorce. Many divorce cases in my place were caused by the husband's laziness.

 

[AishaRayann]

I think alot of it has to do with

1)money
2)addictions (alcohol,drugs,sex,porn,shopping.etc)
3)abuse (physical violence,emotional abuse,sexual abuse,etc)

 

[May Ayob]

From what I found in my place, the big factor is not the husband's income, but the husband's responsibility to gain an income. A wife who has poor husband who work, never request divorce (except some wives who have "blind by dunya). But if the husband is lazy to make money, it will becomes a big factor that motivate the wife to request divorce. Many divorce cases in my place were caused by the husband's laziness.

Salaam Bro

You live in Indonesia , i think there are many good brought up girls/women that have respect for family values but speaking abroad that's not how things are every where with all the media today all what many people are running after today is the money because they think it will bring them happiness and things like that but you are correct and i agree with you responsibilty is another big issue which is just as important if not more important.

Salaam

 

[Ramadhan]

From Wikipedia (take that for what it's worth): United States: 28.4 for men, 26.5 for women. (2009)

Thanks.
That's not as young as Donthewise make it out to be, and in fact those age are olders than first time marriages in Indonesia.
Here's the data for Indonesia, female: 23.2 male: 26.9
source: http://www.datastatistik-indonesia.com/component/option,com_tabel/kat,6/idtabel,141/Itemid,168/

Also keep in mind that many marriages in the rural areas in Indonesia are not registered at civil state registration because they can't pay the costs, and those marriages are usually young marriages. Hence the actual ages for first time marriages in Indonesia is actually lower than the statistics show.

 

[Who Am I?]

Thanks.
That's not as young as Donthewise make it out to be, and in fact those age are olders than first time marriages in Indonesia.
Here's the data for Indonesia, female: 23.2 male: 26.9
source: http://www.datastatistik-indonesia.com/component/option,com_tabel/kat,6/idtabel,141/Itemid,168/

Also keep in mind that many marriages in the rural areas in Indonesia are not registered at civil state registration because they can't pay the costs, and those marriages are usually young marriages. Hence the actual ages for first time marriages in Indonesia is actually lower than the statistics show.

I destroy both of those figures as I am 35 and never married. I do know a few of my old high school friends that were married at 18, 19, 20 years old. Many of them are now divorced.

The unofficial Indonesian figures are a lot like the early 20th century US. I've read stories of girls especially getting married at 16 or 17. Of course, a lot of people back then didn't even finish high school and certainly didn't attend university, which pretty much everyone does these days.

 

[ardianto]

Salaam Bro

You live in Indonesia , i think there are many good brought up girls/women that have respect for family values but speaking abroad that's not how things are every where with all the media today all what many people are running after today is the money because they think it will bring them happiness and things like that but you are correct and i agree with you responsibilty is another big issue which is just as important if not more important.

Salaam

Assalamualaikum sister

Like I said in another thread, different place, different culture. In Indonesia, wealth is important factor to start a marriage. A rich guy is easier to get a wife than poor guy. But wealth is not main factor in divorce cases. There are wives who request divorce just because their husbands are poor and they want to seek rich husband, but the number of divorce cases that caused by poverty like this is not significant if compared by number of divorce cases that caused the husband laziness.

Same like in other places, in Indonesia the husband's duty is making money for family, and the wife's duty is managed that money and managed the home. But the wife can work to make money if the husband's income is not enough. Many wives in Indonesia also work to make money. Unfortunately -and I don't know why- there are husband who are going lazy, they do not seek a job, or even stop working, and spend their times to having fun with money from their wives.

Do you know sister, divorce rate in Indonesia is the highest in all Muslim countries, which 70% of divorce are requested by the wives. The most common reason to divorce are the husband married again without permission from the wife, and domestic violence. But from what I know, many domestic violence cases in Indonesia back grounded by the husband laziness. The wife work hard outside the home while the husband spend his only for having fun. When the wife angry and ask the husband responsibility, the husband beat the wife.

 

[May Ayob]

Do you know sister, divorce rate in Indonesia is the highest in all Muslim countries, which 70% of divorce are requested by the wives. The most common reason to divorce are the husband married again without permission from the wife, and domestic violence. But from what I know, many domestic violence cases in Indonesia back grounded by the husband laziness. The wife work hard outside the home while the husband spend his only for having fun. When the wife angry and ask the husband responsibility, the husband beat the wife.

Thank you for your reply - well both seem like valid reasons for me

 

[PiousGirl_86]

Well that means its high time for her to broaden her experiences of this world and all the people in it.

Mad_scientist and kingkong your comments were very rude and totally uncalled for. I see some people are offended by my observations. I was merely expressing my opinions based on my experiences. I have a board experiences of the world thank you very much, so i am not ignorant. I am not ignorant to the fact that it is mainly eastern cultures that have these cultural problems. I was only talking about my experiences form living within that community. I won't just lie and say what i hear from hearsay about other cultures, wouldn't that be wrong of me. I am well aware that Indians, Arabs, Afghanis, etc will impose their cultures onto their children. What i was trying to explain is, why can't people try to follow the sunnah of Islam and not their culture. I know children what to please their parents. When one or both are pleasing their parents and not each other, then a marriage can fail. Stand up and correct the wrongs of a cultural teaching and make it right. What happened to discussing your problems with one another without family involvement. Do not stick your head in the sand and think everything will be fine. On the day of judgement you are only accountable for your own actions, and if one is having parents or anyone else for that matter dictating something in your marriage or life that appears to be wrong you can't shift blame on that day, and Allah knows best.

Furthermore, kingkong i know of the hadith you are talking about very well. Now i know for one that I was by no means ungrateful to my ex husband. I put a lot of effort into making my marriage work, but when someone is selfish and self centred into their own reality then you cannot change that. I have no regrets whatsoever for my divorce as i know and Allah knows, i worked hard and compromised a lot and got absolutely nothing back. I know what is reasonable, i am not materialistic and i am not blinded by this dunya. Do not judge every marriage and think that the woman is at fault all the time. I am very well aware that there are some woman who demand a lot. I think that is wrong and unreasonable. But do not dare for one moment judge all to be the same. every divorce has individual reasons for failure. Only Allah will judge. I did say SOME men, not all. Let me explain, when i was looking to marry i had spoken to some men that were concerned about the type of job i had and what type of career i was going into. When i enquired further is was because their were aiming for a particular lifestyle. Some were actually saying they wanted their 2 holidays a year and large house, for example, (mind you these were successful men). Do not be ignorant and think that all Muslim men (and women) know their Islam and duties for one another. I am sure you have met your fair share. Some have actually said to me, that the sunnah was only at the time of the Prophet (saw) and times have changed, so the sunnah does not stick in this day and age, we are living in modern times. I couldn't believe my ears when i heard this from the few i spoke to. I know if a couple follow the sunnah and Quran then a marriage can always work. I do not have an issue with men, none whatsoever. My concern is, how much some Muslims do not know or want to know about their duties or even the sunnah. Fortunately, I have met some very good brothers who do, mashallah. Unfortunately, Islamic education is not always placed as high as academic education in some cases.

 

[Salahudeen]

I think it has to do with people getting bored and wanting something/someone new. A man goes out on the street and see's all these beautiful women walking around in front of him so when he goes home his wife eventually looks very average to him and not so special because his heart has been exposed to all these different beautiful women. And he doesn't feel content with what he has anymore.

I think this is also part of the wisdom of the niqaab, if every woman wore niqaab a man would go home feeling as if he is the luckiest man alive with the most beautiful wife because she's all he knows. And he would feel happy with what he has because he's not been exposed to all these different women who incite desires and passions within him.

 

[Who Am I?]

I think it has to do with people getting bored and wanting something/someone new. A man goes out on the street and see's all these beautiful women walking around in front of him so when he goes home his wife eventually looks very average to him and not so special because his heart has been exposed to all these different beautiful women. And he doesn't feel content with what he has anymore.

I think this is also part of the wisdom of the niqaab, if every woman wore niqaab a man would go home feeling as if he is the luckiest man alive with the most beautiful wife because she's all he knows. And he would feel happy with what he has because he's not been exposed to all these different women who incite desires and passions within him.

Reminds me of something that I talked to the brother about yesterday. Even a woman with hijab can be attractive and you can still think bad thoughts about her. Allah knows I have had my share of bad thoughts about women. I am single and lonely and it sucks sometimes, and I think about things I shouldn't. It's one thing to have thoughts, but another to act on them entirely. Inshallah, I don't act on my thoughts. We as men are visual; we're attracted to how a woman looks, so there is some truth to what you say.

This is why I have distanced myself as much as possible from women for the time being. I don't need that distraction right now. This is about my relationship with Allah and becoming who I was meant to be.

 

[May Ayob]

was merely expressing my opinions based on my experiences. I have a board experiences of the world thank you very much, so i am not ignorant. I am not ignorant to the fact that it is mainly eastern cultures that have these cultural problems. I was only talking about my experiences form living within that community.

Salaam sis , No you are not ignorant but that's definately how they are going to make you feel - probably because your a female - i dont know why but i have the impression that Mad_scientist doesnt really have much respect for females - sorry maybe its not true but that's what i understood.

Salaam