Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Amigo]

who are these fathers?

All the ancestors who have thought me how to worship: how to be thankfull, how to admit sin, how to repent, how to do penance, how to offer thanksgiving, how to practice virtue and hate vice, how to live in the truth and avoid falsehood, how to hallow God's holy name:

What makes them holy?

God is Holy, He makes anyone who wants holy. He sanctifies who wants to be sanctified.

and how do you know they are holy?

They love the truth with their whole heart, believe in it without wavering, and have zero tolerance of falsehood. When they sin they give example of contrition and repentance, they don't excuse sin or justify lying or any other corruption.

What is the path of sincerity and honesty?

love of truth and transparency. single mind, single heart. Love of Integrity: Worship of ONE God.

 

[Amigo]

Do these same Fathers also grant forgiveness from sin as in "Father forgive me for I have sinned, it has been 2 weeks since my last Confession."? How does the penance specified by the priest like "Say three Hail Marys and sin no more" have to do with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross"?

What does the bank clerk and your ID got to do with the inheritance your ancestors left for you?
Or what does your DNA got to do with your ancestors? are you sure you are you? or you are your ancestors? or????

 

[MustafaMc]

What does the bank clerk and your ID got to do with the inheritance your ancestors left for you?

My ID serves to let the clerk know that I am the person to whom the inheritance belongs and that thereby it is legal to give me the money. Is Jesus' blood your passport to receiving forgiveness? Wa that the relevance you were getting at?

Or what does your DNA got to do with your ancestors? are you sure you are you? or you are your ancestors? or????

My DNA defines certain aspects of my unique person. It is the reason why I am white with freckles and not black or olive skinned. My physical body is an aspect of me, but it is not the totality of me. The true essence of my being is the comprehensive package of beliefs, personality, deeds, words spoken, thoughts, cultural heritage, etc. These later things are most probably not due to my DNA that I received from my unique set of ancestors. My brother and I share identically the same set of ancestors, but we are very different individuals. He is a Christian and I am a Muslim. We each have accumulated our own set of sins and misdeeds, but we look for redemption from different means.

 

[Ramadhan]

All the ancestors who have thought me how to worship:

ancestors? whose ancestors? so they are dead already? How did they communicate with and teach you when they are already dead?

God is Holy, He makes anyone who wants holy. He sanctifies who wants to be sanctified

How do you know that God made those men holy?
What does sanctified mean?

They love the truth with their whole heart, believe in it without wavering, and have zero tolerance of falsehood. When they sin they give example of contrition and repentance, they don't excuse sin or justify lying or any other corruption.

Who are these people? are they priests? or popes?
because I've heard and read many horror stories about priests and popes which contradict what you wrote above.

love of truth and transparency. single mind, single heart. Love of Integrity:

Then you must love Islam for Islam is the truth and transparency.
What does single heart and single mind mean?

Worship of ONE God.

Don't christians worship a 3 persons God?
Is that integrity?

 

[Amigo]

ancestors? whose ancestors? so they are dead already? How did they communicate with and teach you when they are already dead?

Anyone who is in God is alive though he may be dead to this world. For God is ever alive.

How do you know that God made those men holy? What does sanctified mean?

They have loved each other and all men including their ennemies to the end.
They have when necessary chosen death rather than dishonesty, malice, and all other ways they were pushed by the world to betray life, love, and truth.
They were/are strong in love. They would rather die than kill to preserve their temporal lives. They never killed, and if they did, they repented of it in no ambigous manner. They promoted truth and truth only, never justifying any lie or falsehood. Full faith in the truth is true faith to me. It is sanctifying faith.
'Sanctified' means empowered to love to the end no matter what. To keep the commandments, to respect the holy name of God, human life and dignity, and creation always. Empowerment to endure in the truth and resist all falsehood.

Who are these people? are they priests? or popes? because I've heard and read many horror stories about priests and popes which contradict what you wrote above.

These people are people who have lived and died in peace with God. Even when they committed horrors, they did not try to justify them, but have repented of them and made peace with God. See Psalm 51 for an example of repentance. They are people from all categories including priests and popes. Holiness does not shine from horrible lives, but from righteous lives, from virtue, true repentance, love of all men.

What does single heart and single mind mean?

It means no contradiction of conflict in heart or mind or both. Moreover, true faith comes from them when they speak from one heart and with one mind. The Church is one as God is one.

Don't christians worship a 3 persons God? Is that integrity?

By three persons you mean: Father, Son, Holy Spirit ?
If yes, how is that not integrity?

 

[Amigo]

My ID serves to let the clerk know that I am the person to whom the inheritance belongs and that thereby it is legal to give me the money. Is Jesus' blood your passport to receiving forgiveness?

To receive forgiveness, you must present the real/true sins. There is corresponding real mercy to every real sin.
Jesus's blood is the guarantee of new life (eternal life in the eternal world), just us your blood is the guarantee of your life now in this world.

Wa that the relevance you were getting at?

God is real, and works with real means.

My DNA defines certain aspects of my unique person. It is the reason why I am white with freckles and not black or olive skinned. My physical body is an aspect of me, but it is not the totality of me. The true essence of my being is the comprehensive package of beliefs, personality, deeds, words spoken, thoughts, cultural heritage, etc. These later things are most probably not due to my DNA that I received from my unique set of ancestors. My brother and I share identically the same set of ancestors, but we are very different individuals. He is a Christian and I am a Muslim. We each have accumulated our own set of sins and misdeeds, but we look for redemption from different means.

In other words, your inheritance is already there. All you do is choose how to deal with it.

 

[Ramadhan]

Anyone who is in God is alive though he may be dead to this world. For God is ever alive.

I see. So these ancestors of yours who are dead but alive taught you christianity. How did you communicate with those dead and yet alive people?

They have loved each other and all men including their ennemies to the end. They have when necessary chosen death rather than dishonesty, malice, and all other ways they were pushed by the world to betray life, love, and truth. They were/are strong in love. They would rather die than kill to preserve their temporal lives. They never killed, and if they did, they repented of it in no ambigous manner. They promoted truth and truth only, never justifying any lie or falsehood. Full faith in the truth is true faith to me. It is sanctifying faith. 'Sanctified' means empowered to love to the end no matter what. To keep the commandments, to respect the holy name of God, human life and dignity, and creation always. Empowerment to endure in the truth and resist all falsehood.

Can you name those people?

These people are people who have lived and died in peace with God. Even when they committed horrors, they did not try to justify them, but have repented of them and made peace with God. See Psalm 51 for an example of repentance. They are people from all categories including priests and popes. Holiness does not shine from horrible lives, but from righteous lives, from virtue, true repentance, love of all men.

I think I'm getting closer now. So those people are still holy even though they raped little boys, am I right? That's because they live and die with God.

It means no contradiction of conflict in heart or mind or both. Moreover, true faith comes from them when they speak from one heart and with one mind. The Church is one as God is one.

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

By three persons you mean: Father, Son, Holy Spirit ? If yes, how is that not integrity?

Well if God is divisible, then it's not integrity.

 

[MustafaMc]

To receive forgiveness, you must present the real/true sins. There is corresponding real mercy to every real sin.
Jesus's blood is the guarantee of new life (eternal life in the eternal world), just us your blood is the guarantee of your life now in this world.

I assume "present the real/true sins" means to confess them. I can appreciate that as the first step in repentance is the acknowledgment of the sin, then we feel regret, ask God for forgiveness, offer a penance to offset the wrong and intend to not repeat the sin. So in your belief Jesus' blood guarantees you won't be held accountable for your past, present, or future sins. However, the blood running through my veins does not guarantee my human life in any way whatsoever. Five minutes underwater would most certainly lead to my death.

 

[Amigo]

I see. So these ancestors of yours who are dead but alive taught you christianity. How did you communicate with those dead and yet alive people?

The people of God are alive in God and are in communion with each other. This means they can communicate through the Holy Spirit of God. Death has been conquered and is no longer a barrier between them. Moreover some of the Fathers are still in this world. I have named some here already, I will not be naming anymore if it is for your mocking/snaring pleasure.

Well if God is divisible, then it's not integrity.

There is no division where there is love. God is love.
It is those who don't love who are divided.
No love = divisions
Love = integrity

 

[Amigo]

I assume "present the real/true sins" means to confess them. I can appreciate that as the first step in repentance is the acknowledgment of the sin, then we feel regret, ask God for forgiveness, offer a penance to offset the wrong and intend to not repeat the sin. So in your belief Jesus' blood guarantees you won't be held accountable for your past, present, or future sins. However, the blood running through my veins does not guarantee my human life in any way whatsoever. Five minutes underwater would most certainly lead to my death.

Yeah, few minutes under water will stop your heart from beating, and compromise its power with your blood. Same for me. But not so for the sacred heart of Jesus. Nothing, not even death can stop it from beating. And so as He lives, those who are in his Body live.

Jesus's blood cleans my sins and heal my wounds. There is no offsetting of sins. That which is offset remains, it is just offset, plus you can't offset sin.
Instead, there is cleaning and healing therefore power to rise from the dead to life on the day of resurrection. Only that which has been purified will be able to rise into life. No corrupt thing rise to life again only the pure; the purified.

 

[Ramadhan]

The people of God are alive in God and are in communion with each other. This means they can communicate through the Holy Spirit of God. Death has been conquered and is no longer a barrier between them. Moreover some of the Fathers are still in this world. I have named some here already, I will not be naming anymore if it is for your mocking/snaring pleasure.

Ah it's getting clearer by now. So you are basically communicating with your dead ancestors through holy spirit, am I not right?
Also, I don't think you have specified the names of those dead people. Can anyone communicate with them, or just a select few?
And about my mocking, which part of my question that is mocking your belief? I just hope you don't misunderstand my eagerness to understand your faith with mocking.

And I think you have missed these questions:

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

So those people are still holy even though they raped little boys, am I right?

We can ask about everything in christianity right, there is no area that is off limit, correct?
I appreciate your honesty.

There is no division where there is love. God is love. It is those who don't love who are divided. No love = divisions Love = integrity

Frankly, this definition is new to me.
God is love?
I thought for christians, God consists of the father, jesus, and the spirit? So the father, jesus and the spirit are basically love?
so basically according to this christian understanding, if we love, we become God, am I right?

 

[Amigo]

Ah it's getting clearer by now. So you are basically communicating with your dead ancestors through holy spirit, am I not right?
Also, I don't think you have specified the names of those dead people. Can anyone communicate with them, or just a select few?
And about my mocking, which part of my question that is mocking your belief? I just hope you don't misunderstand my eagerness to understand your faith with mocking.

And I think you have missed these questions:




We can ask about everything in christianity right, there is no area that is off limit, correct?
I appreciate your honesty.



Frankly, this definition is new to me.
God is love?
I thought for christians, God consists of the father, jesus, and the spirit? So the father, jesus and the spirit are basically love?
so basically according to this christian understanding, if we love, we become God, am I right?

No I did not miss any question and yes, every question is welcome, that is every honest question. But every Herod attitude question, deserve a Jesus attitude reply.

Yes, God is love; true life giving love.
And everyone who love this kind of love is born of God.
Those who don't love they dont know God, for God is love.

St. John whom I am paraphrasing is my father in this faith. The following are some of the other fathers and what they transmitted in relation to your question. If you are honest in your persistent questioning you will check them out, if not, I can tell serious questioning from snaring as I already pointed out.
Fr. Robert Barron: "Faith Seeks Understanding" this is a series of Q/A on youtube that should do a great deal to satisfy your questions if you are honest and serious.
Benedict XVI: God is Love: This is a Letter to Christians. You should also read it for your questions in you are honest and serious.
All your questions are answered in these two.

 

[Ramadhan]

No I did not miss any question and yes, every question is welcome, that is every honest question. But every Herod attitude question, deserve a Jesus attitude reply.

Can you please explain what is Herod attitude question, and which one of my questions is Herod attitude. I am afraid I don't know much about christian language. And what exactly is Jesus attitude reply? Doesn't Jesus love everyone according to christianity? Or does this mean Jesus did not love Herod?

Yes, God is love; true life giving love. And everyone who love this kind of love is born of God. Those who don't love they dont know God, for God is love.

Can you please explain to us how you came to conclusion that God is love?
And if a person is not born of God, who are they born from?
I think I love, so does this mean I know God?

St. John whom I am paraphrasing is my father in this faith. The following are some of the other fathers and what they transmitted in relation to your question. If you are honest in your persistent questioning you will check them out, if not, I can tell serious questioning from snaring as I already pointed out. Fr. Robert Barron: "Faith Seeks Understanding" this is a series of Q/A on youtube that should do a great deal to satisfy your questions if you are honest and serious. Benedict XVI: God is Love: This is a Letter to Christians. You should also read it for your questions in you are honest and serious. All your questions are answered in these two.

Yes, I have started to watch those, but they don't really answer my questions.
Also, you said in your reply to br. MustafaMC that you base your faith not on some writing, but why are you asking me to read what Benedict XVI wrote? To borrow your own words: what if I cannot understand english?
I read that these followings were not very good popes:
Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III
Were they also in communion with God and were infallible?

You mention St. John as your father. I understand that he us dead long time ago. How do you communicate with him? I would also like to speak with him if possible and ask him a few questions.

Thank you for your patience in replying to my queries, for I am glad that we can ask anything about christianity.

 

[Ramadhan]

Amigo, you missed this query of mine:

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

I tried to look for the answer in the sources you gave me, but couldn't find it. I am confident that you can give me the answer as you generously explained to me that you know the asnwers to all my questions.

Thank you.

 

[Amigo]

Can you please explain what is Herod attitude question, and which one of my questions is Herod attitude. I am afraid I don't know much about christian language. And what exactly is Jesus attitude reply? Doesn't Jesus love everyone according to christianity? Or does this mean Jesus did not love Herod?

When they brought Jesus to Herod, Herod took opportunity to make fun of him by asking questions not out of need but to deride Jesus, he went on with all kinds of provocations and humiliation. Jesus remained silent. Another example is a town where Jesus went to heal people and set them free from their diseases and demonic possessions. They chased him out and he left them alone. All this Jesus did out of love. Love does not force itself on people.
Also God himself respects the gifts he has given to us. He gave us the gift of self-determination, so he respects it when we use it. However, God can not be forced to go against his own values by mocking and snaring. Same thing for those who have his Spirit.
I will decide when to answer or not to answer. Silence can be part of the appropriate answer from a loving heart. If you don't like it, you can do whatever you want, as Herod and others did.

Can you please explain to us how you came to conclusion that God is love? And if a person is not born of God, who are they born from? I think I love, so does this mean I know God?

I accepted and made the choice to love and love all men without exception.
Once you chose this path, you go on growing in understanding of God who makes his sun shine on all, even his enemies. For God is all good and no evil comes from Him. God is God of the living, and gives only life. Life, healing, redemption, forgiveness, restoration, comes from God. So those who know God do the same for all goodness comes from God. They do what they have received from God. It is a culture of life all around God in his people.

On the other hand, there is a culture of death; worship of death, for where there is worship of the one true God, there is a sense of integrity and this means respect of all life.
Those who are not born of God are born of other things obviously. They are alien to the ways of goodness and perfections for they are born of imperfect things. And you cannot keep integrity while related to imperfect things. Unless Perfection adopts us, we are doomed. Redemptions consists of the proccess of adoption into the ways of perfection. From darkness into light.
Those who grow in love know that God is love and see what gifts He has showered on us from the beginning. From the beginning, when God created us, he gifted us with the gift of love in integrity.
From the beginning, He always makes us father, mother and child; in integrity in our mother’s womb when He creates man. The three are always made together as one.
From the beginning, He shows us to bonding power of his creative love. He always makes us three in one. And he commands our heart to love so as to keep this integrity. For worship of One God consists of keeping this integrity. Those who love, keep integrity, those who keep integrity keep unity. Those who keep unity, knows peace and joy that comes from God.
However when we try to be perfect sons/daughter we find our family are not cooperating, for integrity in son-ship is tied to integrity of the related fatherhood and motherhood, To grow in integrity there is a need of a new birth; birth from a perfect family.
Human are not perfect, but God is perfect.
Perfect integrity, true sonship/daughtership is only possible in God.
Those who accept to be adopted by the Holy Spirit, they become sons/daughters in the Son of God, and perfect integrity become possible for them. For God is perfect Father.
Perfect integrity, is perfect son/daughter-ship, perfect love, perfect happiness.
It is Heaven: realm of perfect integrity where true love dwells and everlasting joy is possible.

Yes, I have started to watch those, but they don't really answer my questions. Also, you said in your reply to br. MustafaMC that you base your faith not on some writing, but why are you asking me to read what Benedict XVI wrote? To borrow your own words: what if I cannot understand english? I read that these followings were not very good popes: Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III Were they also in communion with God and were infallible? You mention St. John as your father. I understand that he us dead long time ago. How do you communicate with him? I would also like to speak with him if possible and ask him a few questions. Thank you for your patience in replying to my queries, for I am glad that we can ask anything about christianity.

If I remember correctly, I told brother Mustafa that finite writtings can not contain the infinite dimensions of the Word of God. Even humans use more than writting to communicate their messages. I told him that writting are not enough to grasp the full message of God. So you can't keep saying 'show me where in the Bible this is written' in order to believe something.
It is because not everything can be contained in the Bible that the Fathers in the Christian Faith have been writting and will always write as well as using other means to articulate what is not otherwise clearly articulated in the Bible. Full human dimension is at least required to transmitt the message of God to humans. For this reason, you have arts including youtube videos being used to explain the Christian Faith. You also have letters still being written just as the Apostles wrote letters to Christians from the beginning. Keep watching those videos, and reading that letter. You will get the answer. I am certain of that. Unless you have a different question poping up...
About infallibility, every Pope is kept from error in special situations. Check wikipedia for details, it gives enough for now.

 

[Ramadhan]

When they brought Jesus to Herod, Herod took opportunity to make fun of him by asking questions not out of need but to deride Jesus, he went on with all kinds of provocations and humiliation. Jesus remained silent. Another example is a town where Jesus went to heal people and set them free from their diseases and demonic possessions. They chased him out and he left them alone. All this Jesus did out of love. Love does not force itself on people.

Ah I see. You don't think I am like Herod, do you?
I am sure you love me, right?
My questions are pure out of curiosity, because it seems your answers are not standard christian, so I want to know more.

Also God himself respects the gifts he has given to us. He gave us the gift of self-determination, so he respects it when we use it. However, God can not be forced to go against his own values by mocking and snaring. Same thing for those who have his Spirit. I will decide when to answer or not to answer. Silence can be part of the appropriate answer from a loving heart. If you don't like it, you can do whatever you want, as Herod and others did.

So is there particular questions you don't like? I don't want to get silent treatment from you.

Those who are not born of God are born of other things obviously

So there are other sources of creation?

From the beginning, He always makes us father, mother and child; in integrity in our mother’s womb when He creates man. The three are always made together as one. From the beginning, He shows us to bonding power of his creative love. He always makes us three in one. And he commands our heart to love so as to keep this integrity. For worship of One God consists of keeping this integrity. Those who love, keep integrity, those who keep integrity keep unity. Those who keep unity, knows peace and joy that comes from God.However when we try to be perfect sons/daughter we find our family are not cooperating, for integrity in son-ship is tied to integrity of the related fatherhood and motherhood, To grow in integrity there is a need of a new birth; birth from a perfect family.

What about those babies whose father had died while they were in the womb? They surely cannot keep the integrity, so they are out of God now, am I correct?
Also, am I correct in my understanding that cghristians liken God to the union of father, mother, and the child?
So in this case for christians, the father = father, holy spirit = mother, jesus = child?
Does this mean that christians believe Jesus was born from the union of the father and holy spirit?

Human are not perfect, but God is perfect.

But in the other thread you said jesus is God, but we know Jesus is not perfect. These two statements clearly contradict each other, what do you think?

Perfect integrity, true sonship/daughtership is only possible in God.

So God has children, is this what you are saying?

Those who accept to be adopted by the Holy Spirit,

I understand that christians believe that God consists of the father, holy spirit and jesus. So is the job of adopting humans only done by holy spirit? Can the father also adopt humans as sons/daughters? how about jesus? can jesus also adopt humans as sons/daughters?

If I remember correctly, I told brother Mustafa that finite writtings can not contain the infinite dimensions of the Word of God. Even humans use more than writting to communicate their messages. I told him that writting are not enough to grasp the full message of God. So you can't keep saying 'show me where in the Bible this is written' in order to believe something. It is because not everything can be contained in the Bible that the Fathers in the Christian Faith have been writting and will always write as well as using other means to articulate what is not otherwise clearly articulated in the Bible. Full human dimension is at least required to transmitt the message of God to humans. For this reason, you have arts including youtube videos being used to explain the Christian Faith. You also have letters still being written just as the Apostles wrote letters to Christians from the beginning. Keep watching those videos, and reading that letter. You will get the answer. I am certain of that. Unless you have a different question poping up...

I see, so you are saying that bible is full of errors, but the writings of priests and popes are perfect. Is this the standard christians belief?
But those popes and priests write in language that I don't understand? How do common folks and uneducated people understand christianity if they don't speak latin or english? Is it true that only a select few are allowed to truly understand christianity?

About infallibility, every Pope is kept from error in special situations. Check wikipedia for details, it gives enough for now.

So you are saying that popes Stephen VI, Urban VI, Alexander VI, Pius XII, Benedict IX, Boniface VIII, NIcholas III, Clement V, Leo X, Sergius III were all in communion with God, and were from God?

Thank you again for your explanation, very enlightening for us to understand christianity more.

 

[Ramadhan]

Amigo, you missed this query of mine:

So every church is one? Which church are we talking about? Can you please be more specific?

This is very sincere question, and I am not mocking you in any way. I hope this question is not one of those "no-go" questions, or a question that receives silent treatment from you. Please tell me if it is. It is hard to know which questions I am allowed to ask and what is not.
But since you told me earlier you have the answers to all my questions, then I am waiting in patient.

 

[Amigo]

Ah I see. You don't think I am like Herod, do you? I am sure you love me, right? My questions are pure out of curiosity, because it seems your answers are not standard christian, so I want to know more.

My love would not prevent you from having a Herod attitude. People choose their own fate even before God. Blessings and curse are placed before us. We choose.

 

[Amigo]

Originally Posted by Amigo Those who are not born of God are born of other things obviously /
So there are other sources of creation?

Creating is not the samething as begetting.

 

[Amigo]

What about those babies whose father had died while they were in the womb? They surely cannot keep the integrity, so they are out of God now, am I correct?

Anyone who die in truth is alive, for life is existance in the truth not in the body.
In truth, a father is still a father of his childreen wether in the body or out of the body. Relationships exist in the truth first of all, not so much in the body. They body is only a sign, when the sign is gone, the reality remains.
Those who die in the truth, they die in God and so they are alive in God. They are only dead to this world, separated from the body but not from God.
And they will rise again those who are alive in God: those who died in truth.