Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Grace Seeker]

So a few posters on an internet forum represent 1.5 billions muslims? I do admire your power of deduction.

Thank-you.

A few are often used to represent many, sometimes even the whole. In this case, those few posters from this forum that I have named provide antecdotal information. And the poll conducted by the Sabr Foundation has enough respondents (7927) that it can be used to extrapoliate from to project to the hundreds of millions that I did. You are the one that has suggested the number 1.5 billion. I don't project this view on all Muslims. Though Sabr Foundation report would suggest it is held by a majority, I don't know whether that would or would not be true, but I do feel comfortable saying it is going to be a significant enough percentage as to equate to hundreds of millions.

As to the original question, thank-you for finally addressing that as well. As I read your response, it appears that in this case you agree with wikipedia -- orthodox Muslims who are attempting to provide substantative support for their views of Jesus' crucifixion from scholarly research or academic sources should NOT depend on the supposed-gospel of Barnabas for that support. Though the material in it may in some parts be in agreement with the Qur'an that Jesus was not crucified or with Islamic folklore regarding the supposed substitution of Judas for Jesus on the cross (a particular found in the folklore of Islam, not the Qur'an), it cannot be established that the supposed-gospel of Barnabas is an authentic record, but rather it is highly questionable and most likely a medieval creation. So, why some continue to use it, your answer is a simple you don't know.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Now, please tell me that current bible was not heavily edited, corrupted, omitted, added into, changed, etc

OK. The current bible was not heavily edited, corrupted, omitted, added into, changed, etc...

Not that I actually believe that there are no changes in it, but you asked me to tell you, so I did.

Not possessing the original autographs, the Christian church has kept the divergent copies that it does have and used a scientific process called textual criticism in an attempt to arrive at the most likely original text. Where this process produces a text over which doubt remains as to the original, a close look at the published translation will typically show a footnote indicating alternate readings. I believe these alternate readings are the result of human error, including sometimes errors in judgment, not malicious editting.

 

[Ramadhan]

@ramadhan i know the muslim views on crucifixion . But i don't understand people like ibn kathir writing detailed descriptions of What happened 700 years before he lived to the level of describing jesus' hair dripping water after taking a shower..... Imagination imagination .

If ibn kathir had been your only problem, you most certainly didn't show it in your earlier posts. You actually do have a problem with Allah saving Jesus instead of letting him crucified.
As for the description of Jesus appearance, it is not the description of Jesus 2,000 years ago, but it is a description of him when he will be sent back to us during the end of time, and it is based on a shaheeh hadith, bukhari if I'm not mistaken. So you actually have a problem with Rasulullah SAW sayings.

you said i'm dishonest . I'm someone who transforms into a tony montana type of guys if my honesty is on the line

I don't know who tony montana is, I was just expressing my opinion that it is contradictory for someone who claimed they are muslim but disbelieve in the words of Allah SWT.

The christian muslim alliance at the end of time was an article written by a devote muslim answering muslim questions and i provided the link.

And you presented it here as a fact. You kept saying it was true, even though you never produced qur'an and ahadeeth evidence when I kept repeatedly asked you so.
Just for your information, unlike christians who do not believe in their own scriptures, we muslims based our opinions on qur'an and ahadeeth especially in the matter of deen, and especially in regard to what happend during the judgement day and prior to it.

About the thousands witnessing jesus' crucifixion was only a questioning context not a fact .

That's not how you wrote it. So far, you have done almost none questioning and mostly contentious claims.
I would have certainly answered you differently had you actually asked questions.

I was asking you But you don't even know if the crucifixion was in public and it's not even written in the quran So this question is important and it might provide a better way on understanding the islamic views on crucifixion.

Qur'an does not tell anything about crucifixion, and I base my view on the qur'an and ahadeedth. I'm not a hadith expert, so there might be detailed narration about how Allah SWT saved and raised jesus (pbuh).
FYI, even in the canonical gospels, there is NO witness to the jesus death on crucifixion AND resurrection. It seems your question is misplaced, you should instead ask CHRISTIANS how they believe that jesus died on crucifixion and resurrection when their own scripture does not produce a witness to the event.

The question comes back to you again: how did you assume that there were thousands of people witnessing the event?

Cos till now i don't know How many people back then god made judas appear to them as jesus .

The Qur'an does not say Allah SWT made Judas to appear as Jesus (as). We don't even know if someone else took the place of Jesus (as).

God raised jesus and left the people wandering and banging their heads on the walls to find out What happened.

As has been explained to you before, the true followers and disciples of Jesus (as) knew that Jesus (as) was not crucified and that he was raised directly by Allah SWT. Current christians who believe in the death and resurrection are formed by paulian christianity, there were hundreds of other gospels that had different narrations that was detroyed and their followers killed.
Again, you NEVER asked, but you usually write like this: "people wandering and banging their heads on the walls to find out What happened"
you can please show us your sources how people wandering and banging their heads on the walls to find out what happened?

Jesus is from the people of the book And i know that muslims consider christians as people of the book! Christ ians christ followers . Christ jesus ians . Followers of jesus christ. Jesus is still jesus .

Please show us evidence of what you said:
1. the real name of Jesus
2. where did the name christian come from and who used it

 

[Ramadhan]

A few are often used to represent many, sometimes even the whole. In this case, those few posters from this forum that I have named provide antecdotal information. And the poll conducted by the Sabr Foundation has enough respondents (7927) that it can be used to extrapoliate from to project to the hundreds of millions that I did.

I admire your power of deduction, still. And here is the latest example:
1. What is sabr foundation? it IS a website http://sabr.com/home. NOTHING is known about this website except they claim to offer "free educational websites" so you believe that ONE website represent Islam, or even muslims belief? Nice work, sherlock!
2. the website or the poll does not give description and history of what is currently known as gospel of barnabas and the poll that the website did is anonymous poll, open to EVERYONE on the internet. so you actually think anonymous people online are all muslims? Again, your power of mind should be preserved for all to admire.

Though Sabr Foundation report would suggest it is held by a majority, I don't know whether that would or would not be true, but I do feel comfortable saying it is going to be a significant enough percentage as to equate to hundreds of millions.

See above explanations. So would you also feel comfortable if I go to a jehovah witness website and claim that it represent christians belief?

 

[Ramadhan]

OK. The current bible was not heavily edited, corrupted, omitted, added into, changed, etc... Not that I actually believe that there are no changes in it, but you asked me to tell you, so I did.

If you think that the KOINE GREEK codex sinaiticus or vaticanus bible (the oldest bible manuscript, ca. 300) is the original scripture, and unless you really believe that Jesus spoke koine greek to his own jewish disciples 3 centuries before, then the editing processes might not be too great and arduous. But even if you take koine greek bible as your original scripture, there's still great changes. Example: PERICOPE ADULTERAE (christians members and guests who read this forum are encouraged to google it and see for themselves how a whole passage was fabricated and falsely attributed to Jesus, a man christians worship as god. When this blatant fabrication is allowed to be included in the current bible, you can only guess what else they changed or conjectures they wrote into scriptures when there's no original authentic records of jesus sayings and actions).
And actually I agree with you, your faith is based on what Paul wrote than on what Jesus (as) said and did.

Not possessing the original autographs, the Christian church has kept the divergent copies that it does have and used a scientific process called textual criticism in an attempt to arrive at the most likely original text. Where this process produces a text over which doubt remains as to the original, a close look at the published translation will typically show a footnote indicating alternate readings. I believe these alternate readings are the result of human error, including sometimes errors in judgment, not malicious editting.

See above.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ramadhan, you're repeating yourself and give evidence that you don't read well. Did I say that I do believe or that I don't believe there are changes in the text we have inherited today from the original? No, you won't find a direct quote to answer that question either way. You will actually have to read and learn to PROPERLY interpret what people say.

 

[Ramadhan]

Ramadhan, you're repeating yourself and give evidence that you don't read well. Did I say that I do believe or that I don't believe there are changes in the text we have inherited today from the original? No, you won't find a direct quote to answer that question either way. You will actually have to read and learn to PROPERLY interpret what people say.

I do understand what you were saying, which is fuzzy especially when it comes to explaining christian belief.
I am sure you don't like the facts I have presented about bible., but there may be other members or guests of this forum who find them interesting and helpful.

In real life, people who have truth normally give direct, clear answers, and people who don't have truth normally use convoluted flowery words to hide the fact that they don't have the truth.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I do understand = fuzzy

Enough said.

 

[Ramadhan]

Enough said.

You may not have realized, but for most sane people possessing basic common sense, 3 is NOT equal to 1.
and no original = no way to determine whether what you have now is the same with or even close to the original.

That's why you have been resorting to fuzzy, flowery convoluted words to explain your belief, circumventing the real truth that your belief has no basis in truth.

 

[Riana17]

I do understand what you were saying, which is fuzzy especially when it comes to explaining christian belief.
I am sure you don't like the facts I have presented about bible., but there may be other members or guests of this forum who find them interesting and helpful.

In real life, people who have truth normally give direct, clear answers, and people who don't have truth normally use convoluted flowery words to hide the fact that they don't have the truth.

salam

I totally AGREE
Its either yes or NO
Either truth or LIES
EITHER good or bad

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, here are some simple YES/NO questions regarding Islam about which I am curious. (Mind you, these are YES/NO questions. I expect no "it depends" or other sort of evasive answers.)

Do all Muslims supposedly believe the same thing, regardles of whether Shi'a or Sunni or other sect?


Did the prophet command the Muslims that after his death they ought to follow his sahabah?

Did the prophet say: “I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I leave behind two precious things (thaqalayn) amongst you: the Book of Allah and my progeny. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond (in the hereafter).”?

Is the above hadeeth supported by:
1. al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, alMustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut), volume 3, pages 109-110, 148, and 533) where he expressly states that the tradition is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim?
2. Muslim, al-Sahih, (English translation), book 031, numbers 5920-3?
3. al-Tirmidhi, al-Sahih, volume 5, pages 621-2, numbers 3786 and 3788; volume 2, page 219?
4. al-Nasa'i, Khasa'is’Ali ibn Abi Talib, hadith number 79?

Did the prophet not also say: "I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray."?


Did the prophet leave behind 3 things: the Book of Allah, the Sunnah, and his progeny?


If one follows the Qur'an alone is that sufficient to not go astray?

 

[Riana17]

There is no Sect in Islam
as long as someone believe in Quran, practise the 5Pillars of Islam and 6 Foundation of Faith in islam- he is A MUSLIM

If one Follows Quran correctly, he will never go ASTRAY
Sunnah is not like Quran, a Muslim cant say Sunnah is 100% original, it is PURE STATEMENT OF PEOPLE to give example to Muslims and follow the good deeds of our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , explain Quran further (words of Prophet) and so on

Quran is pure WORDS of Allah, and try to show us atleast one contradiction and if you didnt see, respect our belief and dont waste anymore time

 

[Getoffmyback]

I'm also curious about the double pointed use of christian scriptures . Muslims use them to support the prophecies of the coming of prophet mohamad and on the other point they say those scriptures are corrupted and altered when a christian is using them to support Lets say crucifixion !

How can someone use corrupted scriptures to support prophecies.

 

[Amigo]

I'm also curious about the double pointed use of christian scriptures . Muslims use them to support the prophecies of the coming of prophet mohamad and on the other point they say those scriptures are corrupted and altered when a christian is using them to support Lets say crucifixion !

How can someone use corrupted scriptures to support prophecies.

I am glad someone have eyes to notice that. I think I read somewhere that the Bible is only right when it proves Muslim scriptures; convenient eh

 

[Riana17]

I am glad someone have eyes to notice that. I think I read somewhere that the Bible is only right when it proves Muslim scriptures; convenient eh

Salam
No Muslim claims that Bible is not corrupted. We all know it is written by countless authors - that's why it is called BIBLE - defines collections of BOOKS

Muslim link the Quran / our belief to Bible bcoz we are from same source (Adam, Even & so on) and to present you that not just our Holy Quran talks about what is TRUTH that There is just one God & so on but the Bible confirmed also. But you people interpret them wrongly
Be surprise if we Muslims compare our religion to Buddhism or Hinduism, that you should jump instead of being surprise

 

[Amigo]

No Muslim claims that Bible is not corrupted.

They do?

We all know it is written by countless authors - that's why it is called BIBLE - defines collections of BOOKS

Yes. I am glad you know.

Muslim link the Quran / our belief to Bible bcoz we are from same source (Adam, Even & so on) and to present you that not just our Holy Quran talks about what is TRUTH that There is just one God & so on but the Bible confirmed also. But you people interpret them wrongly

Sometimes it is wise not to judge because it goes against you. Humility leaves judgment to God.
Don't be so sure all Christians interpret the Bible wrong

 

[Riana17]

They do?




Yes. I am glad you know.



Sometimes it is wise not to judge because it goes against you. Humility leaves judgment to God.
Don't be so sure all Christians interpret the Bible wrong

Yes we do

Me too, more than glad you know that Bible is not purely words of God that you accept that it is narrated by the authors

I surely mentioned "not all", and yeah that's what Muslim is all about, I AM TOO CONFIDENT that I am in right religion,,, that if you see any contradiction at all in our Holy Quran, i will cut my neck in front of you (oh that's hard, okay you can cut my neck then)

 

[Amigo]

Yes we do

Well, for now, I will believe only you. I will believe others when I see it for myself.

I surely mentioned "not all", and yeah that's what Muslim is all about, I AM TOO CONFIDENT that I am in right religion,,, that if you see any contradiction at all in our Holy Quran, i will cut my neck in front of you (oh that's hard, okay you can cut my neck then)

Truth is does not come with death. It comes with more life and love too. What would anyone gain with a head down?

 

[Riana17]

Well, for now, I will believe only you. I will believe others when I see it for myself.




Truth is does not make people die. It makes people fully alive.

Salam
That's why I challenged you bro, this is the highest thing I can offer you,,, my precious neck, the only thing I am very sure about this life,, is my religion.

 

[Amigo]

Salam
That's why I challenged you bro, this is the highest thing I can offer you,,, my precious neck, the only thing I am very sure about this life,, is my religion.

Sorry I don't deal in terms of death
Faith is a matter of love or it is no faith but superstition and love gives life always. God wants you alive always and this is my faith. I want you alive always.