Friendly Atheist

[Mister Agenda]

Greeting of peace

How many books actually base their things on facts or evidence? I they did would you still ignore it?

Mainly history and science books, probably millions and millions of them. But we're really talking about scriptures, right? They are going to be a mix, as they interpret real invents in the light of their faith. When Homer wrote the Illiad, it was just a 'fact' that gods meddle in the affairs of humans, so events were interpreted with that understanding. It doesn't mean Homer was being dishonest when he reported that the Trojan War was a result of a contest between three goddesses, that was the story he was familiar with and it was in line with his beliefs, so he recorded it that way. I don't ignore the Illiad, but I don't believe everything in it is literally true. I expect it is mixed with legend, that Homer took poetic license, and so forth. I think a storm at sea is a storm at sea, not Poseidon trying to delay travelers.

I believe the term 'Yeshua' is used for Jesus (pbuh)? sorry if im incorrect

As usual, you are correct. I have heard Muslims refer to him as something like 'Isha', is that right?

Snip

Let me ask you a question (sorry if you dont like q's and if its a silly q :-\) do you believe that Afghanistan exists right? though i assume you've never been? or lets say Iraq? you've never been though you know it exists.

Yes, I would be very surprised to learn that Afghanistan or Iraq don't exist. I haven't been but I have a half-brother and step-brother who have. It would be perverse not to believe they exist as it would require a huge conspiracy to fake all the evidence, which is much more difficult to believe than that these two countries (or many others I haven't been to) don't exist.

or another example..

you are desserted on a dessert :-\, whilst walking on your way to 'somewhere' you notice footsteps on the sand, so logically you would figure someone has been here.. an individual created the footstep

Yes, I know what footsteps look like, I understand how they are made and why they make an impression in sand, and I can make them myself. Again, it would be more implausible to believe they were faked given my knowledge of them.

so another example is there exists a sky, day turns to night, night turns to day, or mountains,ocean, river etc etc, it means they didnt just show up themselves but they were created. ever wondered how mountains came into existence or many other things?

Yes, all these things are the result of natural processes. Our planet turns, continents shift. The same sorts of things happen all over the universe in places where there is no one to wonder why they happen.

note: i didnt give proofs but i gave examples which lead to proofs.. if that makes sense.

Sure, I wasn't expecting you to give a mathematical proof. On these matters I think the best that can be done is to work with examples and analogies. To me there is too big a leap between 'I see a computer and know it was made by people' and 'I see a mountain and know it was made by a spirit'. It is natural to apply what we know to what we don't know, like 'shoes are made by someone' to 'everything is made by someone'. There is a gap between these things. To you it may seem a small step, but to me it seems like a yawning chasm.

what would be your way?

Controlling anger in case one harms someone or themselves, to be just, to not lie , to not hurt ones feelings, to not talk about peple behind their back, think for a second talking about people behind someones back, to warn people from the wrong and to do whats good for the person.

My way would be similar. We might disagree on details, but on the big things it is clear it would not be a good way of life if there was no expectation to be civil with one another. When the different religions agree on something, I think they are usually right; and they tend to agree that we should keep our tempers and keep at least a minimum courtesy.

Yes, what is the purpose of life, why are we here? according to you.

I suspect the only reason we're here is because we can be. I don't think anyone made us for a purpose.

Is it that we live how we like in this great life and then death takes over when we dont even know the time of its coming and then its all over.

Yes. All we know for sure is the life we have now, so we should make the best of it while we have the opportunity. Stories end, and that's a good thing, I think. A story without an ending is never complete. And every person's life is also a story.

A apologise if there were parts i didnt make sense of myself and i hope i didnt offend you in any way. also again for the long post i apologise :-\

.. peace ..

No worries. I shortened your part a bit, where I put 'Snip', hope you don't mind. We're still in my comfort zone. I know you won't be offended or take it personally if we get to the point where I say 'can we agree to say, in fondness, goodbye to this thread?" Peace.

 

[Ramadhan]

It hasn't been established that there is a first cause, perhaps existence has always existed, just not always in the current form. Some people think the Big Bang theory means everything came from nothing, but all the science tells us is that we don't know what the universe was like before the Big Bang, only that it was very small compared to how big it is now. I don't know if there was ever true non-existence, and if there was, I don't know how or why that changed...although there is some math that suggests if there were true nothingness, it would be unstable. There are an infinite number of ways for there to be something, only one way for there to be absolutely nothing.
I don't know what preceded the Big Bang (more like an expansion, but we seem to be stuck with the name), and neither does anyone else.

You are right, it was more an expansion than a bang. Here's Allah described how he created heavens and earth (the phrase in the qur'an is used to denote the whole universe and everything in existence know to men):

He created the heavens and the Earth from nothing. (QS. 6:101) <-- absolute nothingness prior the "big bang"

the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder (QS. 21:30). <---- everything that it is today was one unit and split apart, "big bang"

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (QS. 51:47) <--- expanding universe.

Many people are certain their particular creation story is the true one, but certainty does not equal knowledge.

Are those other creation theories confirmed by latest scientific discoveries, or do they at least sound plausible?

 

[Mister Agenda]

Some of them do. The Greeks believed the universe was formed from an initial state of chaos which is a pretty good description of a maximum entropy singularity. Chinese myth envisioned a 'cosmic egg' coalesced out of chaos that formed the universe when it was cracked open. I don't see these superficial similarities to current scientific theories as a reason to believe they had 'insider knowledge' on the origin of the universe. With a thousand creation myths, some of them are bound to be closer to the mark than others.

There are only three things the universe can be doing regarding it's size: shrinking, expanding, or staying the same. It's not exactly a million-to-one shot to pick 'expanding'. It seems natural to me, our world has always expanded in terms of our knowledge of it, I think I would certainly not pick 'shrinking', even if I knew nothing of science and was making up a story to explain things to my children.

Creation stories serve a purpose, even if they aren't exactly right, or even if they are really, really wrong. They weren't intended to be scientific fact. The people who came up with them didn't even have a concept of scientific fact. They are stories that pass on a world view, a concept of a people's relation with the world around them. They last because they resonate with our hearts.

The Jewish Adam and Eve creation story sounds like a fairy tale. A woman is tricked by a talking snake into eating a magic fruit and that is where all the troubles in the world come from (in Greek myths, a woman named Pandora opened a box containing all the miseries of the world and let them out). But on another level, it is about very important things. The struggle within us between the part of us that wants to be good, even heroic (humans before the Fall) and the part of us that wants to give in to wrath and hate (the serpent) and why we do wrong even though we know it's wrong (the fruit of knowledge of good and evil).

As history it doesn't make sense. As allegory it makes perfect sense.

 

[Mister Agenda]

To all readers: remember I am not trying to convince anyone I'm right, just answering questions about what I think. I recognize that my opinions are my own. I also don't think anyone is foolish for not agreeing with me, I am a fallible human, I'm sure I am wrong about many things. Perhaps if I had been raised Muslim I would think very differently than I do now, or maybe it's in my nature and Islam would not have held me any better than Christian fundamentalism.

Obviously I don't think I'm wrong, or I would change my mind. If it turns out I'm right, it is no credit to me, it's not because I am smart or educated, it's just that I am skeptical. I don't think I am able to believe in supernatural things at this point without experiencing such a thing myself and having something after as evidence that I wasn't hallucinating. I think that's a virtue, but if I'm wrong, maybe it's a fault.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace

Yes. All we know for sure is the life we have now, so we should make the best of it while we have the opportunity. Stories end, and that's a good thing, I think. A story without an ending is never complete. And every person's life is also a story.

This is all I will end this discussion. It seems we disagree on the main structure of the discussion/argument whatever you may wish to call it..

I hope you the best in life in figuring out what the purpose of life is. just like there is a purpose of how and why a new born baby is born and once reached the old age is wrinkly and weak. or just like an obese person's purpose is to lose weight, they will go through many difficulties and trials to reach their goal ...

Though i do hope that maybe you learnt something regarding Islaam whether you agree or disagree.

.. peace ..

 

[Getoffmyback]

Did you speak in tongues ? And congratlations that Yo're not doing it anymore

 

[Ramadhan]

From the general comment that you fling against qur'an, I assume that you have not read qur'an in its entirety and may not even read/understand the history of it.

e Greeks believed the universe was formed from an initial state of chaos which is a pretty good description of a maximum entropy singularity. Chinese myth envisioned a 'cosmic egg' coalesced out of chaos that formed the universe when it was cracked open. I don't see these superficial similarities to current scientific theories as a reason to believe they had 'insider knowledge' on the origin of the universe

Can you please provide more authentic written details and sources on those greek and chinese creation theory so we can see how close they were to the now scientifically accepted theory on the creation of our universe?
I have provided you with the translation of the qur'an verses (I can give you the authentic qur'an verses if you can read arabic).

With a thousand creation myths, some of them are bound to be closer to the mark than others.

So you agree that the qur'an verses I mentioned are very close to the mark.
Now, how can this be? Let's say you don't believe in the divine origin of the qur'an, so the source was this completely illiterate man known as 100% honest even by his enemies in the 7th century desert arabia. So you are saying that this single man practically made statements about the origin and initial state of the universe that is only confirmed by edwin hubble some 1,400 years later?
Keep in mind that unlike the possible chinese or greek belief you mentioned, the verses are not isolated statements and one off, they are part of thousands verses, which were individually revealed (by him if you mind the divine origin) to address specific situations throughout 20+ years, and yet when completed, they compiled in such flawless and fluid syntax that even orientalists today still admire at the beauty and lyrical quality of the verses, not to mention the inherent numerical coincidences (I am not using the word "miracle" as I know atheists are allergic to such word) which no one today has been able to explain how it was achieved in the 7th century arabia.
the verses also address all subjects from the smallest units to the largest ones, from human pre existance to after death, from spiritual enhancements and fulfillments to the practical realities of personal physical and mental health, politics, governance, finance, marriage, etc to the solutions to the ills of individuals and society, to the guidelines for the continuous betterment and improvement of individuals and societies.

So do those greek and chinese creation theories contained in such book?
The closer you might get ("closer" in this context is extremely generous) is creation theories contained in the torah, bible or bhagawat gita. And we know how absurd they are.
How is it the jews (who lived in the oldest civilizations area), the christians (who lived in the peak of roman and hellenistic culture), the hindus (who lived among the oldest and great civilization) and the chinese could not come up with accurate observations and predictions of the physical world?
Why is it that Muhammad (pbuh) an illiterate who lived in 7th century desert arabia by himself alone made accurate shot after accurate shot at the physical world (expanding universe, all living things made from water, etc) while seemingly these amazing shots just an afterthought in among the thousands of interconnected verses?

There are only three things the universe can be doing regarding it's size: shrinking, expanding, or staying the same. It's not exactly a million-to-one shot to pick 'expanding'. It seems natural to me, our world has always expanded in terms of our knowledge of it, I think I would certainly not pick 'shrinking', even if I knew nothing of science and was making up a story to explain things to my children.

It is easy to say now because you lived in 21st century. Not many scientists even believed that the universe was expanding, until edwin hubble confirmed it.
Keep in mind that the Qur'an made definitive statement: The universe was expanded from its initial state. and that the universe came from absolute nothingness.
That is not vague, and if it were not true, then Muhammad SAW had lied, right?
This is what the greeks believed:
The earliest quantitative geocentric models were developed by the ancient Greeks, who proposed that the universe possesses infinite space and has existed eternally, but contains a single set of concentric spheres of finite size – corresponding to the fixed stars, the Sun and various planets – rotating about a spherical but unmoving Earth.
Isn't it funny whenever the qur'an says something about some natural process, such as living things made of water, enemies of Islam quickly claimed "Muhammad must have stolen the idea from the greeks philosophers!" and when the greek philosophers were all wrong on all points about the universe, the same people quickly claim "Well of course, it was easy to observe the universe is expanding from an initial extremely dense and small point".

Creation stories serve a purpose, even if they aren't exactly right, or even if they are really, really wrong. They weren't intended to be scientific fact. The people who came up with them didn't even have a concept of scientific fact. They are stories that pass on a world view, a concept of a people's relation with the world around them. They last because they resonate with our hearts.

This is your opinion, but not based on evidence or facts.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Greetings of peace



This is all I will end this discussion. It seems we disagree on the main structure of the discussion/argument whatever you may wish to call it..

I hope you the best in life in figuring out what the purpose of life is. just like there is a purpose of how and why a new born baby is born and once reached the old age is wrinkly and weak. or just like an obese person's purpose is to lose weight, they will go through many difficulties and trials to reach their goal ...

Though i do hope that maybe you learnt something regarding Islaam whether you agree or disagree.

.. peace ..

Thanks, Pearl, I'm sure I will learn new things about Islam while I am here. I wish you the very best in life, and for your family as well. Peace.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Did you speak in tongues ? And congratlations that Yo're not doing it anymore

Yes, I did. Thanks, I'm glad I'm not doing it anymore, too.

 

[Mister Agenda]

From the general comment that you fling against qur'an, I assume that you have not read qur'an in its entirety and may not even read/understand the history of it.

Can you please provide more authentic written details and sources on those greek and chinese creation theory so we can see how close they were to the now scientifically accepted theory on the creation of our universe?
I have provided you with the translation of the qur'an verses (I can give you the authentic qur'an verses if you can read arabic).

So you agree that the qur'an verses I mentioned are very close to the mark.
Now, how can this be? Let's say you don't believe in the divine origin of the qur'an, so the source was this completely illiterate man known as 100% honest even by his enemies in the 7th century desert arabia. So you are saying that this single man practically made statements about the origin and initial state of the universe that is only confirmed by edwin hubble some 1,400 years later?
Keep in mind that unlike the possible chinese or greek belief you mentioned, the verses are not isolated statements and one off, they are part of thousands verses, which were individually revealed (by him if you mind the divine origin) to address specific situations throughout 20+ years, and yet when completed, they compiled in such flawless and fluid syntax that even orientalists today still admire at the beauty and lyrical quality of the verses, not to mention the inherent numerical coincidences (I am not using the word "miracle" as I know atheists are allergic to such word) which no one today has been able to explain how it was achieved in the 7th century arabia.
the verses also address all subjects from the smallest units to the largest ones, from human pre existance to after death, from spiritual enhancements and fulfillments to the practical realities of personal physical and mental health, politics, governance, finance, marriage, etc to the solutions to the ills of individuals and society, to the guidelines for the continuous betterment and improvement of individuals and societies.

So do those greek and chinese creation theories contained in such book?
The closer you might get ("closer" in this context is extremely generous) is creation theories contained in the torah, bible or bhagawat gita. And we know how absurd they are.
How is it the jews (who lived in the oldest civilizations area), the christians (who lived in the peak of roman and hellenistic culture), the hindus (who lived among the oldest and great civilization) and the chinese could not come up with accurate observations and predictions of the physical world?
Why is it that Muhammad (pbuh) an illiterate who lived in 7th century desert arabia by himself alone made accurate shot after accurate shot at the physical world (expanding universe, all living things made from water, etc) while seemingly these amazing shots just an afterthought in among the thousands of interconnected verses?

It is easy to say now because you lived in 21st century. Not many scientists even believed that the universe was expanding, until edwin hubble confirmed it.
Keep in mind that the Qur'an made definitive statement: The universe was expanded from its initial state. and that the universe came from absolute nothingness.
That is not vague, and if it were not true, then Muhammad SAW had lied, right?
This is what the greeks believed:
The earliest quantitative geocentric models were developed by the ancient Greeks, who proposed that the universe possesses infinite space and has existed eternally, but contains a single set of concentric spheres of finite size – corresponding to the fixed stars, the Sun and various planets – rotating about a spherical but unmoving Earth.
Isn't it funny whenever the qur'an says something about some natural process, such as living things made of water, enemies of Islam quickly claimed "Muhammad must have stolen the idea from the greeks philosophers!" and when the greek philosophers were all wrong on all points about the universe, the same people quickly claim "Well of course, it was easy to observe the universe is expanding from an initial extremely dense and small point".

This is your opinion, but not based on evidence or facts.

I don't think we should continue this conversation, Ramadhan. Clearly you are offended by my previous answers, and if what I have said already offends you, I don't see how answering these further questions won't continue to do so. Peace.

 

[Getoffmyback]

Even if agenda read the entire quran in english it will never sound and feel like in arabic So that's another things . People who reads the quran in english are reading a book which is not considered quran it's only a book So they are not reading the words of god. cos muslim scholars made a fatwa that if the quran is translated to another language it will become a book not the word of god cos the word of god came in arabic!

Lets say the quran is unique But the miracles side is What i don't absorbe cos I went to a site dedicated to quran miracles and they used the verse 19:57 to refer to the launch of the russian sputnic!

The verse 19:57 says : we raised him up to a high place.

Seriously What is this! It says we raised him not it . And if you read previous verses they are talking about moses and Idris and other prophets , and i guess this verse was refering to prophets not objects. And So on they used 19:57 to refer to the year when sputnic was launched! There is nothing miraculous about that! Cos you can use the verse number and the interpretation of a single verse and use it to refere to anything or any event that happened back in 1957 . So i don't understand such websites.

 

[Ramadhan]

Lets say the quran is unique But the miracles side is What i don't absorbe cos I went to a site dedicated to quran miracles and they used the verse 19:57 to refer to the launch of the russian sputnic! The verse 19:57 says : we raised him up to a high place.

Majority muslims don't claim that. You went to a fringe website. Do you actually give your opinion about certain issue based on what a single internet website say?

Now, do you not agree on the main points of qur'anic miracles?

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't think we should continue this conversation, Ramadhan. Clearly you are offended by my previous answers, and if what I have said already offends you, I don't see how answering these further questions won't continue to do so. Peace.

Honestly, I actually am not offended at all with your answers. For me, your post just lacked details and I am enquiring about those details.
I hope we can continue this discussion, but if you don't feel like it, I am not forcing you.

 

[Getoffmyback]

Majority muslims don't claim that. You went to a fringe website. Do you actually give your opinion about certain issue based on what a single internet website say?

Now, do you not agree on the main points of qur'anic miracles?

Give me a website of your choice . I'm interested in learning about miracles.

 

[Who Am I?]

I just want to break in and say that this has to be the longest introduction thread in IB.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument... ;D

 

[Mister Agenda]

I just want to break in and say that this has to be the longest introduction thread in IB.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument... ;D

LOL, I was thinking the same thing!

 

[Mister Agenda]

Honestly, I actually am not offended at all with your answers. For me, your post just lacked details and I am enquiring about those details.
I hope we can continue this discussion, but if you don't feel like it, I am not forcing you.

I'm glad you weren't offended, you have been very helpful to me and I want to stay on your good side!

It is a lot to go into. Imagine if you were to go to a Hindu site. You are in the position of not believing their scriptures reflect the true nature of divinity, although you might concede they have some good morals (where they do not conflict with your own) and some real history. Some of the Hindus on the site believe that it is you that is mistaken. You get into it a little more, and they point out that you are not an expert on their scriptures, so how can you judge them to be false? How far can your debate go and be productive?

I don't at all feel like you're trying to force me, and you're being a gentleman about my reservations, which I appreciate. Our points of view are very different, and if we're not an impasse, I think we're coming up on one, soon. It didn't even occur to me that what I was saying would be taken as 'flinging accusations at the Qur'an'. I should have, because we are talking about a book you consider both sacred and perfect. Even discussing the possibility that it might not be must feel hostile. I don't hold anything as sacred as that, but I remember when I did.

I feel I may be a little disappointing as an atheist member, this is your opportunity to satisfy some curiosity about atheists on your own turf, but I'm not really holding up my end. I went through a more argumentative phase when I was a little younger, but you missed it!

 

[Who Am I?]

I used to be an atheist myself a long time ago. I hated every religion and despised the concept of God. A lot of it was because I didn't really like myself very much. "God can't exist, because if He created me, why am I so useless?" That was my reasoning behind there not being a God. Well, that, and all the evils done by mankind throughout history.

 

[Ramadhan]

Give me a website of your choice . I'm interested in learning about miracles.

If I'm not mistaken, you once claimed you are an arab muslim, so I would guess you are able to read the Qur'an.
Here's the website:
http://quranflash.com/
Please let me know if you've finished reading it and then we can discuss further.

 

[Ramadhan]

It is a lot to go into. Imagine if you were to go to a Hindu site. You are in the position of not believing their scriptures reflect the true nature of divinity, although you might concede they have some good morals (where they do not conflict with your own) and some real history. Some of the Hindus on the site believe that it is you that is mistaken. You get into it a little more, and they point out that you are not an expert on their scriptures, so how can you judge them to be false? How far can your debate go and be productive?

I actually was not going to argue about other scriptures, as you said, I may not know much about them, and especially since this thread may not be appropriate thread to do it.
Our discussion started off when I presented the verses of the qur'an that correspond with your statement about the origin of our universe, and ones which you dismissed as being coincidental and that Muhammad (pbuh) made the right bets, and you stated that the ancient chinese and greeks have also made similar accurate belief about the origin of the universe. First, I wanted to know more about those chinese and greek beliefs, as I have not heard about them, so therefore I inquired about the authentic details.
I also made the argument that the "bets" that Muhammad (pbuh) successfully made were not standalone statements, rather part and parcel of much bigger package, this is to respond to your dismissal of the verses.

As for the hindu scriptures, it remind me of another post (the last post of this page of this now closed thread http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...59-thread-about-scientific-error-quran-2.html):

Quran has many instances where it is improbable for them to occur by chance. Sure, other possibility is that Muhammad (saw) could have intended it that way. that is also unlikely specially when he did not write the Quran down and did not keep track of things in his brain and did not sit down to analyze what is where.

many other religious books can also have such features. They are, however, intended by the authors. As for as historicity of Quran is concerned, there is no evidence that muhammad (pbuh) intended all those numerical things.

For example, ancient Hindu scriptures were already thinking about the age of cosmos/earth in billions of years while Judeo-Christian thought was stuck to the Young age concept of Earth being 6000 years old ..... but lets look at how many other things those Hindu scriptures got wrong. Quran does not get anything wrong about the physical world as far as the observational phenomenon are concerned.

I don't at all feel like you're trying to force me, and you're being a gentleman about my reservations, which I appreciate. Our points of view are very different, and if we're not an impasse, I think we're coming up on one, soon. It didn't even occur to me that what I was saying would be taken as 'flinging accusations at the Qur'an'. I should have, because we are talking about a book you consider both sacred and perfect. Even discussing the possibility that it might not be must feel hostile. I don't hold anything as sacred as that, but I remember when I did.

I actually don't mind discussing possibility that the Qur'an might not be of divine origin, as long as we present details, facts and evidence, and not merely throw around general statements such as "it's a book made up by man as a collection of stories to make man feel good about himself", which in my opinion shows the lack of even minutae knowledge of the issue, and not helpful in advancing the discussion.

I feel I may be a little disappointing as an atheist member, this is your opportunity to satisfy some curiosity about atheists on your own turf, but I'm not really holding up my end. I went through a more argumentative phase when I was a little younger, but you missed it!

Don't worry, we've had enough fun with other atheist members here
Just peruse the past threads in the comparative religion section.