Religious groups condemn US embassy gay event

[GuestFellow]

A group of religious conservatives in Pakistan has condemned a recent event hosted by the US embassy in Islamabad in support of gay rights.

:skeleton:

Share your views....

 

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

What is the US actually planning? I'm aware the US requires Pakistan's assistance to set up some sort of pro-American government in Afghanistan but what will it achieve by promoting homosexuality? It is as though they want to anger the Pakistani population. I highly doubt the US foreign policy establishment have felt the sudden urge to promote human rights, especially considering the atrocities they've committed in the past....

 

[Ramadhan]

Well, I'm not surprised. The west has been exporting their cultural predisposition and lifestyles by any means to the world.
In Indonesia, foreign aid organizations such as USAID (US), AUSAID (australia), european union, DFID (UK), Goethe House (germany), Dutch government, etc has provided a lot of funds to promote events such as "queer film festival" or to gay organizations.

what else is new?
Although it will be fun to ask conservative american christians if they are ok with their tax money being used to promote homosexual lifestyles around the world.

 

[Dagless]

Before reading the article I thought they were supporting the US. Those posters really need to be more clear

 

[Trumble]

Salaam,

What is the US actually planning? I'm aware the US requires Pakistan's assistance to set up some sort of pro-American government in Afghanistan but what will it achieve by promoting homosexuality? It is as though they want to anger the Pakistani population. I highly doubt the US foreign policy establishment have felt the sudden urge to promote human rights, especially considering the atrocities they've committed in the past....

The story doesn't suggest they are 'planning' (or 'exporting', or 'promoting') anything; it refers to an 'event' hosted at the US Embassy (which is, of course, US territory) that has already taken place. Not that 'promoting' equality is a bad thing, of course, and I'm sure gay people in Pakistan can do with any help and support they can muster in the face of the usual homophobia presented as religion. The usual storm in a teacup, IMHO. It seems 'religious conservatives' must always be 'outraged' about something. I guess they need it to maintain their collective identity and stay even vaguely relevant in 21st century civilized society. Personally, I think more people should be 'outraged' at the antics of religious conservatives, but there you go. Maybe people just feel sorry for them.

 

[Ramadhan]

It seems 'religious conservatives' must always be 'outraged' about something.

Not only "religious conservatives", but most groups, including the "liberals", "atheists", "buddhists" etc are also always outraged about something.

 

[May Ayob]

Salaam

I think the US Policy should leave people alone , decide the laws of their country, I don't support these rights in any way, especially not in Pakistan, I simply hope that one day every country get its freedom to decide what it wants according to it's people not from other countries whichever they might be.

I think what the religious groups did was pretty fair in my eyes, They are not very fimiliar with the norms of western standards and Pakistan is cultural based country at least I 'think' so I have nothing against the people.

Salaam

 

[May Ayob]

I'm sure gay people in Pakistan can do with any help and support they can muster in the face of the usual homophobia presented as religion.

Peace be to you

I have to disagree with you in that one, Because if there were laws in Pakistan that promote or protect the right to be Homosexual and Practice homosexuality then I think that would make their life at risk and would increase the amount of suicide bombings happening in the country because now Groups like Taliban Pakistan would not care anymore who they kill because the law is generally applied to everyone and they don't know who everyone is .. so they would probably kill a massive amount of Pakistanis because they are suspicious of them being Homosexual... May be I am wrong but that what it seems to me

Peace be to you

 

[Trumble]

And to you,

That's a fair point, I think. Sometimes pragmatism is necessary, if unsatisfactory. Again, though, there is no suggestion in this story I can see of any attempt to change the law in Pakistan via American influence or otherwise. Indicating support for people's rights to follow the lifestyle of their choice without persecution does not account to 'promoting' or favouring that lifestyle; indeed that's the fundamental point of the liberalism on which the US state was founded in the first place.

 

[May Ayob]

indeed that's the fundamental point of the liberalism on which the US state was founded in the first place.

True but Liberalism in Pakistan is not really something that will happen very soon, I think if the Liberalism founded in the united states would also respect that sometimes in certain occasion one must respect the laws of a country.. Just as France is now demanding Muslim woman who wear the Niqaab to respect their Liberal laws .. I think it would also be fair if other western of Liberal countries did that same thing to countries that have different laws that are not similar to it's own

Peace be to you

 

[GuestFellow]

I guess they need it to maintain their collective identity and stay even vaguely relevant in 21st century civilized society

This is not about religious identity. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. It is as simple as that.

 

[Trumble]

This is not about religious identity. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. It is as simple as that.

Hardly. So anyone who identifies themselves as muslims should refrain from homosexual practice; fine. Non-muslims are not bound by it, any muslims who do what is forbidden presumably have to account to God at some point; and those who don't have nothing to worry about. So why 'outrage'? Why any problem at all?

The real reason, of course, it that it has nothing to do with what is forbidden by Islam or not. It's about a bunch of bigots who wish to enforce their will on others, based on their own prejudices. They can't admit it, probably even to themselves, but religion is just waved about as an excuse.

 

[Ramadhan]

Hardly. So anyone who identifies themselves as muslims should refrain from homosexual practice; fine. Non-muslims are not bound by it, any muslims who do what is forbidden presumably have to account to God at some point; and those who don't have nothing to worry about. So why 'outrage'? Why any problem at all?

In Islam we believe actions of individuals also affect society at large. Individuals must be discouraged from doing evil and society must not let evil done openly.

The real reason, of course, it that it has nothing to do with what is forbidden by Islam or not. It's about a bunch of bigots who wish to enforce their will on others, based on their own prejudices. They can't admit it, probably even to themselves, but religion is just waved about as an excuse.

not true. In Islam there is a principle called "amar ma'ruf, nahi munkar" meaning call/invite people to do good, and call/invite people to avoid evil doing.
homosexual lifestyle is clearly forbidden in Islam, and gay party such as staged by the US embassy in Pakistan is considered promoting evil doing, and hence needs to be stopped.
There's also a principle in Islam "if you can, stop (evil) with your own hand, if you cannot, stop it with your tongue (speak against it), and if still cannot, then curse it with your heart".

 

[GuestFellow]

Hardly. So anyone who identifies themselves as muslims should refrain from homosexual practice; fine. Non-muslims are not bound by it, any muslims who do what is forbidden presumably have to account to God at some point; and those who don't have nothing to worry about. So why 'outrage'? Why any problem at all?

Criminal law applies to everyone, whether Muslim or non-Muslims. Like in the UK, criminal law applies to everyone. If non-Muslims begin to practice homosexuality openly, there will be a possibility that some Muslims will see this practice as acceptable.

The real reason, of course, it that it has nothing to do with what is forbidden by Islam or not. It's about a bunch of bigots who wish to enforce their will on others, based on their own prejudices. They can't admit it, probably even to themselves, but religion is just waved about as an excuse.

No event can take place to celebrate or promote homosexuality within Islam. It is considered as a sin and these people are protesting to prevent such sins becoming acceptable.

I don't approve of any politicians trying to get in involved in other countries' domestic affairs. There are some European countries restricting Muslims from practicing Islam. France would not tolerate it if King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia told President Sarkozy to lift the veil ban and held a big event to protest against the ban in Paris. :/

 

[Abz2000]

i don't know what level some of you are talking on - but since this is an Islamic forum - the emphasis would be on how Islam sees it,
and the Quran is the highest source to derive knowledge from unless there are hadith to clear it up a bit more:

The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them:
“Will ye not fear (Allah)? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust.
So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds.

Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates?

Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!”

They said: “If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!”

HE SAID: “I do detest your doings.” (Surat ash-Shuara: 160-168)

and regarding trumble's comment on "bigots who want to enforce their will on others - here's an example:

We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.”
And his people gave no answer but this:

they said, “Drive them out of your city:

these are indeed men who want to be CLEAN AND PURE!” (Surat al-Araf: 80-82)

this can also be seen in the western media's attack on sisters who dress modestly,
they promote homosexuality, adultery, lewdness, deception and infidelity, yet HATE purity???
that in itself speaks volumes as to their intentions.

Prophet Lut's (pbuh) job was to warn them - (as it is the job of anyone who sees the truth themselves)
this is confirmed by the prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
"If one of you sees something wrong, let him change it with his hand; if he cannot, then with his tongue; if he cannot, then with his heart and this is the weakest faith." Some versions add: "there is no part of faith behind that, not even so much as a mustard seed."

and one would ask : why would they have a vested interest in promoting shamefulness and lewdness - yet hate decency?
they say marrying UPTO 4 women is un-natural - yet shoving it up the A***E of another man is inherent nature,
they also say it's ok for one to do "all sorts of things" with 100 members of the same or opposite sex on camera - sell the videos to the public - then they take at least a fifth of it in taxes - as sort of "share" or "cut", but actually MARRYING UPTO FOUR women is illegal and "oppressive"?
i don't see your logic,
maybe you should look at sarkozy's antics before you talk about enforcing your bigoted ways on others,
or maybe you'd just enjoy all the pictures of the first lady on google images, respectable.
show them to your children too if you like - but don't show them to mine.
and don't push your lewdness and decadence forcefully into my head either.
i know i sound indignant - and RIGHTFULLY SO.

 

[Trumble]

Criminal law applies to everyone, whether Muslim or non-Muslims. Like in the UK, criminal law applies to everyone. If non-Muslims begin to practice homosexuality openly, there will be a possibility that some Muslims will see this practice as acceptable.

As I said, excuses. Are you seriously claiming that what two adult non-muslims happen to do in private (nobody is suggesting sex in the street) will somehow influence muslims who just happen to be in the vicinity to start doing things they know are forbidden by their religion? You are having a laugh. It's nonsensical.

I don't approve of any politicians trying to get in involved in other countries' domestic affairs. There are some European countries restricting Muslims from practicing Islam. France would not tolerate it if King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia told President Sarkozy to lift the veil ban and held a big event to protest against the ban in Paris. :/

Actually, if an analogous event were held at the Saudi embassy I very much doubt the French government, and indeed the French in general, would so much as bat an eyelid. What makes you think differently? Two wrongs don't make a right, in any event. Human rights are not subject to 'tyranny of the majority'; that is their whole purpose.

 

[Ramadhan]

As I said, excuses. Are you seriously claiming that what two adult non-muslims happen to do in private (nobody is suggesting sex in the street) will somehow influence muslims who just happen to be in the vicinity to start doing things they know are forbidden by their religion? You are having a laugh. It's nonsensical.

You are grabbing strawmen and going off tangent here.
We are discussing the gay party event at the embassy, we are not talking about action of two adult non-muslims in private.
What was protested was the actual party in the embassy, who organised by people who champion freedom for having homosexual sex.
This is no difference than if the embassy had organized party for "single people who champion freedom for having extra marital sex".

Actually, if an analogous event were held at the Saudi embassy I very much doubt the French government, and indeed the French in general, would so much as bat an eyelid. What makes you think differently? Two wrongs don't make a right, in any event. Human rights are not subject to 'tyranny of the majority'; that is their whole purpose.

Would the French government like it if Saudi government starts giving funds to organizations in france to fight for having sharia implemented in France and try to influence their lawmakers to change the french law according to their ideals?

 

[Trumble]

You are grabbing strawmen and going off tangent here.
We are discussing the gay party event at the embassy, we are not talking about action of two adult non-muslims in private.

No, I am not. I was responding specifically to

"This is not about religious identity. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. It is as simple as that."

not

'Gay party' events at embassies are forbidden in Islam

, or similar.

What was protested was the actual party in the embassy, who organised by people who champion freedom for having homosexual sex. This is no difference than if the embassy had organized party for "single people who champion freedom for having extra marital sex".

Indeed, no difference at all. As I have already said, though, what is being championed in either case is not a particular form of sexual activity or even way of life. It's the freedom to choose, and to live that life as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others to do the same that is being championed. In their defence, it is on that principal that the country was founded in the first place, so you can hardly accuse the Americans of inconsistency. The case presented so far suggesting homosexual activity in private does interfere with others' rights is, while commonly used, seemingly backed by no evidence whatsoever.

Would the French government like it if Saudi government starts giving funds to organizations in france to fight for having sharia implemented in France and try to influence their lawmakers to change the french law according to their ideals?

Probably not, although I'm sure there's a lot they could do to stop it. However, as such an expert on strawmen you will instantly recognise that as one, there being no suggestion the US State Department is giving anybody 'funds' in the context we are discussing. They threw a social function, end of.

 

[Ramadhan]

No, I am not. I was responding specifically to "This is not about religious identity. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. It is as simple as that." not 'Gay party' events at embassies are forbidden in Islam , or similar.

Let me ask you a question: What would the government of UK do if thieves in UK start to organize themselves and fight for the right to be a thief? Would the UK government start giving money for those organizations to have "thieves party"?

Indeed, no difference at all. As I have already said, though, what is being championed in either case is not a particular form of sexual activity or even way of life. It's the freedom to choose, and to live that life as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others to do the same that is being championed. In their defence, it is on that principal that the country was founded in the first place, so you can hardly accuse the Americans of inconsistency. The case presented so far suggesting homosexual activity in private does interfere with others' rights is, while commonly used, seemingly backed by no evidence whatsoever.

I don't buy all the bs about giving freedom to choose. It's about freedom to choose when it comes to homosexuals.
Have you not heard that the practice of polygamy is illegal in all 50 states?
And you say I can hardly accuse the americans of inconsistency?
LOL. you are right, inconsistency does not even describe it.

And why the freedom to choose stops at homosexuality? and why only homosexuality is supported? what about the freedom of people who are born incestuous? Don't fathers who have incestuous tendencies have right to marry their own daughters on consentual basis?

Probably not, although I'm sure there's a lot they could do to stop it. However, as such an expert on strawmen you will instantly recognise that as one, there being no suggestion the US State Department is giving anybody 'funds' in the context we are discussing. They threw a social function, end of.

I was responding to your claim that the French government wouldnt bat an eyelid, which is not true. In Indonesia (and ,many other world countries, and I am pretty sure also in Pakistan), the US government through its aid agencies such USAID have provided funds to gay organizations to promote gay lifestyles and to push lawmakers to create specific laws that give freedom for homosexuals to practice homosexual acts.

 

[May Ayob]

Salaam and Peace be to all

I think Homosexuality is the last thing we need to worry about in this world.
I don't know why it is taking such huge attention as it is mainly concerned with explicitive context.
Don't other Human beings need their rights too?
I mean why make such big attention to Homosexuality and the rights of Gay people while ...there are millions of people who already have no rights at all No right to live , eat , have good health and education , just as everybody else
When it comes to Gay rights I would have restrictions on what Gay rights really are because they are Human beings and to my knowledge I do not think anyone has taken any of their basic human rights the ones I mentioned before ,and I do not see why people are making such a fuss about this, I mean many people in this world are suffering from Racial and Ethnic discrimination way more than Sexual Orientation discrimination..Private matters are Private matters one who is non-Muslim and is Gay can do what ever as long as they do not publicly demonstrate it as seen in the US Embassy even

Peace be to you