Wanting some clarification on website I've come across

[Pak-istan786]

I just keep becoming worried and doubtful. I want to take the 'leap' so to speak, and not worry about this or think about it again? That seems like the hardest part currently, if you can understand where I'm coming from?

 

[Abz2000]

I just keep becoming worried and doubtful. I want to take the 'leap' so to speak, and not worry about this or think about it again? That seems like the hardest part currently, if you can understand where I'm coming from?

did you read my post?

it's only 5 up,
peace

 

[Pak-istan786]

To make it easier for people to understand me I'm going to write my thought's down here:

" That bible.ca site must be wrong with all it's claims about the plagiarism accusation, bones before flesh accusation etc, because from the links I have seen they refute the plagiarism accusation and more.

Then there's this worry/doubt from the other link on that site ('60 questions Muslims don't like to be asked'), but then I say to myself since that is coming from the same site as before, then it has got to be wrong and they're all false claims like before. Also, I have seen for myself the rebuttal article so this claim by that anti-Islamic site is also not true.

Then, I start worrying about the other site ( it was a Q/A link and the title of the question was something like ' A scientific error in a Hadith regarding deformed animals'), and then again I say to myself there is nothing to worry about here, brother Perseveranze has clarified that for me already and there is nothing there to make me doubt my faith.

And I am still feeling as though something worrying/doubtful is lingering in my head, and that is what is stopping me from moving on "

You guys may be thinking I'm crazy here, but this is my train of thought currently, so maybe I am crazy? They say thinking about a problem when you're still anxious about it will not help, as all your thoughts will be focusing on the problem itself, and not the solution. I think this maybe the case here.

And so now you know my thoughts you can help me better and I can help myself to get out of this mess? JazakAllah

 

[Abz2000]

Looking into scientific facts in Hadith won't help much, as we can't always be 100% certain of their authenticity until they come to pass, that would be people's mistakes, not that of God and His messenger. and if you are in doubt, find the facts, which is something I see you don't seem to be doing much,
I would recommend you watch this video,

Any new visitor who doesn't know much about Islam would deduce from your comments that Muslims believe things only because they have to, even if they aren't true,
When really we are encouraged to find the truth,
Brother, I recommend you ask any question that doesnt make sense straight rather than beat around the bush and say you're suppressing your common sense
Peace

 

[Ramadhan]

Brother,

No one will ever able to help you if you keep actively sabotaging your own self.

Here's my thoughts:

1. You are a muslim, so you sincerely believe in Allah and prophet Muhammad SAW, the kitabs, the angels, the rasuls, the qiyamah and qada and qadar. That's basic.
And you acknowledge that you are still weak in iman and knowledge about Islam. The best thing to do is to increase your eeman and knowledge by studying more about Islam and asking Allah for guidance (and please read brother Hamza post in this thread). But instead, you waste your time by trawling around internet going to either non-Islamic sites and outright Islamic hater sites who manipulate, twists meanings, take things out of context and blatant lies against Islam.

2. in this thread, you keep complaining about having doubts, but you are disregarding every single advice and every single post sincerely written by your brothers and sisters in Islam to help you. In the meantime you have rarely been able to articulate which issue that you have doubts in (except for that embryology question, which has been more than amply answered, explained and clarified in this thread).

3. If you still have one or two specific issues that you want some clarification, you can post them here, and maybe we can help answering, but please don't keep complaining why you have lingering doubts while are still actively going to all those anti Islam websites instead of studying Islam on your own. I give you an example: the other day I was researching qada and qadar on the internet, and I found this pdf article which sounded legit because the name of the author was arabic and the title was serious. The first and second pages were good and had authentic basis, until on the third page the author was inserting a Qur'an ayat. I knew that verse couldnt have existed in the qur'an, and I checked against many translations and tafseers, and this author clearly mistranslated the ayat and then on the same page he also wrote about a hadith which I couldn't find anywhere in any ahadeeth books. So right that moment I realised that this seemingly intellectual book about Qur'an must have been written by an Islamic hater/orientalist/missionary/hypocrite/what have you. What I did next was immediately to stop reading that pdf and immediately deleted the pdf from my computer for good.

4. As brother Hamza has said: it seems you can't discipline yourself from not going to those anti-Islam sites, so why don't you ban yourself from internet, and spend a month buying Islamic books and read them all to increase your eeman and your knowledge.

Please, this time read our posts, and follow at least a couple of our advice.

 

[Pak-istan786]

Could someone tell me whether www.answering-christianity.com is an anti-Islamic site, or is it OK to use? JazakAllah

 

[Abz2000]

It seems like the brother has created a refutation site to clear misconceptons created about the quran and to prove how there are many discrepancies in the previous scriptures due to edits,
However, in regards to the Quran, I personally believe he does stretch things a bit to prove things out of zeal,
Like with chapter ad dukhaan, he claims that the smoke will be the galaxies blowing up, we don't know this and it could be anything.
He does seem sincere though and refuses to accept donations,
Will continue to check the arguments on the site as some are quite good.
Do also try to concentrate on positive energy though, you seem to be looking into disputes a lot
Try also looking into the prophecies made by the prophets and you will see that you don't need a "leap of faith",
Some of the prophets in the old testament made prophecies regarding prophet Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) check Isaiah 28, the new testament gives many prophecies of a prophet to come after Jesus (pbuh) and future events, and then prophet muhammad makes prophecies regarding Jesus pbuh and other future events -
Predictions are different from Prophecies, in that predictions are usually based on trends, while prophecies mention with surety events that will happen thousands of years layer which no one at the time can comprehend.
according to those who believe in random selection, everything happens randomly, if it was random, then you couldn't prophecy exact events thousands of years later unless Some Almighty Being knows the future, now you cant know the future if it's random. You can't see exact images of future events with CERTAINTY if it's random.
Think about this and you will see things in a different light,
Peace

 

[Ramadhan]

Could someone tell me whether www.answering-christianity.com is an anti-Islamic site, or is it OK to use? JazakAllah

Brother, it just seems you don't find any of our advice useful. As you admitted yourself, your knowledge of Islam is very weak, and yet you continue to persist in going to those refuting sites rather than studying the basics of Islam. I would suggest you to go to any big mosques near where you live or to islamic centres and enroll in their courses. Face to face studying is still the best for learning anything.
Failing that, you may want to watch those online video lectures such as peacetv, http://www.peacetv.tv/ islamictube, http://www.islamictube.com/ etc. They have good lectures which is very beneficial in increasing knowledge.
And if you have questions about aqeedah and fiqh, this is among the best sites (just put in the keywords in the search box): http://www.islamqa.com/en
Although it currently seems to be down at the moment.

And if you still insists on going to refuting sites, this is a better alternative: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/home

 

[Pak-istan786]

Assalaamu-Alaikum, I have an honest question here, which I would appreciate if the simplest form of answer was given. I know some people have posted things but they're not clearly making sense to me at the moment.

I wanted to ask what is the key/fundamental difference between what is written here( shown below):

Bones Before Muscle? The Koran got it wrong!
Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)​

The Koran gives the impression that first the skeleton is formed, and then it is clothed with mustle. Dr. Bucaille knows perfectly well that this is not true. The muscles and the cartilage precursors of the bones start forming from the somite at the same time. At the end of the eighth week there are only a few centers of ossification started but the fetus is already capable of some muscular movement.
In a personal letter dated 8/1/87 from Dr. T.W. Sadler, Ph.D., Associate Professor in the Department of Anatomy at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, N.C. 27514, and author of Langman's Medical Embryology, Dr. Sadler states,

"At the 8th week post fertilization, the ribs would be cartilaginous and muscles would be present. Also at this time ossification would begin near the angle of the rib and would spread along the shaft until it reached the costal cartilage by the 4th month. Muscles would be capable of some movement at 8 weeks, but by 10-12 weeks this capacity would be much better developed."​

It is always better to have two witnesses so we shall see what Dr. Keith L. Moore has to say about the development of bones and muscles in his book The Developing Human. Extracted from Chapters 15-17 we find the following information:
The skeletal and muscle system develops from the mesoderm, some of which becomes mesenchymal cells. These mesenchymal cells make muscles, and also have the ability to differentiate...into osteoblasts which make bone. At first the bones form as cartilage models so that by the end of the sixth week the whole limb skeleton is formed out of cartilage but without any bony calcium as shown in Figure 15-13. (Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human, 4th ed., 1988, p. 346.)
While the bone models are forming, myoblasts develop a large muscle mass in each limb bud, separating into extensor and flexor components. In other words, the limb musculature develops simultaneously in situ from the mesenchyme surrounding the developing bones. So Dr. Moore agrees completely with Dr. Sadler.
Furthermore, during a personal conversation with Dr. Moore I showed him Dr. Sadler's statement and he agreed that it was absolutely valid.
Conclusion: on bone development Dr. Sadler and Dr. Moore agree. There is no time when calcified bones have been formed and then the muscles are placed around them. The muscles are there several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than being added around previously formed bones as the Qur'an states. The Qur'an is in complete error here.


And what is written in their answer:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/a..._qur__n__23_14__and_embryology__by_islamtoday

Because as far as I can understand up to this point, is that the main differences in answer are due to differences in interpretation of the verse, and the first site is wrong in their interpretation of the verse.

The verse is correctly interpreted as Allah says: ".then We clothed the bones with flesh."

and NOT AS Allah does not say: "Then we created flesh and clothed the bones with it."

OR( from the bible.ca site)

Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

i.e. the two incorrect verses have 'over-interpreted' and so made things up to deliberately interpret the original verse incorrectly?

Any help will be appreciated, I hope you understand I'm being honest in asking for help here and this is a genuine question.

JazakAllah, wasalaam

 

[IslamicRevival]

Visiting Anti Islamic websites is like taking poison. I would advise you to stop questioning your religion, You are Muslim and Islam is the truth..period

 

[Insaanah]

Saffy 786,

Are you a Muslim? (Your religion says Undisclosed, and your gender is brother in humanity rather than brother in Islam)
If so, do you believe that Allah revealed the Qur'an and that it is 100% His word, and that every word of it is the truth?
Do you believe that Allah created the Universe and nobody knows it like the Creator does?
Do you believe that those who have never created an embryo in their life know better, or Allah?
Do you believe that Allah is either creating embryos wrong, or does not know how to create them?

“The heaven I created by might, and, verily, I am expanding it." (Translation of Qur'an, 51:47)

The Arabic word moos‘ioon is an active participle. It indicates an ongoing action that is occurring at the present time and will continue into the future. It was not until the invention of the spectrograph and the development of a huge (100 in.diameter) reflecting telescope that Edward Hubble was able to discover other galaxies in 1926 and to document in 1927 the red shift of their spectra that indicates they are moving away from ours. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says about this: “The implications of this discovery were immense. The universe, long considered static, was expanding.”

There was one time that people would have said how ridiculous to say the universe is expanding, yet when when man discovers for himself what His Creator already told him 1400 years ago, then man can believe it and it becomes an accepted fact. Humans were a bit (only 1400 years) late on the scene, no?

"Have you not seen how Allaah makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap? And you see raindrops issuing from their midst. He sends down hail from the sky from mountains of hail therein, causing it to fall on whom he wills and averting it from whom he wills.” (24:43)

The Gulf News of Friday, May 30th, 1997 carried the following item:

"The Earth is bathed by a steady “cosmic rain” of previously undetected objects from outer space that pour vast quantities of water into the atmosphere, according to startling new evidence released Wednesday. The objects, 20- to 40-ton snowballs the size of two-bedroom houses, streak into the atmosphere by the thousands each day, disintegrate harmlessly 600 to 15,000 miles up and deposit large clouds of water vapor that eventually falls on Earth’s surface as rain, according to Louis A. Frank of the University of Iowa. He led the research team that for the first time has captured images of these objects...taken at both ultraviolet and visible wavelengths by Frank’s specially designed instrument aboard NASA’s year old Polar spacecraft."

These examples are just the “tip of the iceberg.” There are other remarkably accurate statements about oceanography, geology, cosmogony, physics, biology, embryology, etymology, hydrology and other subjects. As would be expected from the Creator of the universe.

Now, it is up to you whether you wish to believe the enemies of Islam, or whether you wish to believe Allah, your Creator, and the Creator of the embryo, who is creating and seeing every embryo all the time. I just looked at the start date of this thread, and it has been going on for seven months. And still, you are persuing anti-Islamic hate sites. For someone who really wants to believe, it is odd that so much time and effort is being expended on reading the views of those who do not want you to believe, and who want to turn you away from the truth.

People have been very patient in this thread, and provided much evidence and material for you.

The choice is now yours as to what direction you want your life to take.

May Allah guide you to the truth.

"He it is Who has revealed unto you (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt, pursue that which is allegorical, seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." (3:7)

 

[Pak-istan786]

Saffy 786,

Are you a Muslim? (Your religion says Undisclosed, and your gender is brother in humanity rather than brother in Islam)
If so, do you believe that Allah revealed the Qur'an and that it is 100% His word, and that every word of it is the truth?
Do you believe that Allah created the Universe and nobody knows it like the Creator does?
Do you believe that those who have never created an embryo in their life know better, or Allah?
Do you believe that Allah is either creating embryos wrong, or does not know how to create them?

“The heaven I created by might, and, verily, I am expanding it." (Translation of Qur'an, 51:47)

The Arabic word moos‘ioon is an active participle. It indicates an ongoing action that is occurring at the present time and will continue into the future. It was not until the invention of the spectrograph and the development of a huge (100 in.diameter) reflecting telescope that Edward Hubble was able to discover other galaxies in 1926 and to document in 1927 the red shift of their spectra that indicates they are moving away from ours. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says about this: “The implications of this discovery were immense. The universe, long considered static, was expanding.”

There was one time that people would have said how ridiculous to say the universe is expanding, yet when when man discovers for himself what His Creator already told him 1400 years ago, then man can believe it. Humans were a bit (only 1400 years) late on the scene, no?

"Have you not seen how Allaah makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap? And you see raindrops issuing from their midst. He sends down hail from the sky from mountains of hail therein, causing it to fall on whom he wills and averting it from whom he wills.” (24:43)

The Gulf News of Friday, May 30th, 1997 carried the following item:

"The Earth is bathed by a steady “cosmic rain” of previously undetected objects from outer space that pour vast quantities of water into the atmosphere, according to startling new evidence released Wednesday. The objects, 20- to 40-ton snowballs the size of two-bedroom houses, streak into the atmosphere by the thousands each day, disintegrate harmlessly 600 to 15,000 miles up and deposit large clouds of water vapor that eventually falls on Earth’s surface as rain, according to Louis A. Frank of the University of Iowa. He led the research team that for the first time has captured images of these objects...taken at both ultraviolet and visible wavelengths by Frank’s specially designed instrument aboard NASA’s year old Polar spacecraft."

These examples are just the “tip of the iceberg.” There are other remarkably accurate statements about oceanography, geology, cosmogony, physics, biology, embryology, etymology, hydrology and other subjects. As would be expected from the Creator of the universe.

Now, it is up to you whether you wish to believe the enemies of Islam, or whether you wish to believe Allah, your Creator, and the Creator of the embryo, who is creating and seeing every embryo all the time. I just looked at the start date of this thread, and it has been going on for seven months. And still, you are persuing anti-Islamic hate sites. For someone who really wants to believe, it is odd that so much time and effort is being expended on reading the views of those who do not want you to believe, and who want to turn you away from the truth.

People have been very patient in this thread, and provided much evidence and material for you.

The choice is now yours as to what direction you want your life to take.

May Allah guide you to the truth.

"He it is Who has revealed unto you (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt, pursue that which is allegorical, seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." (3:7)

Yes I am a muslim, have been since birth. I had found the original site about 7 months ago, then was reassured and subsequently forgot about it for a few months. Then, in July I started thinking over and worrying again. Also, since late last year I have been experiencing ( some would say severe) mental health problems. I have been diagnosed with a certain mental illness( I am being treated for it), and I've seemed to have lost trust in everything and everyone. Whereas before I used to accept what other people would say easily, be reassured easily, now I feel as though I have to personally have seen everything and understood everything for myself. The persistent curiosity I have now was never there before. Also, I must admit I have lost a lot of confidence and self-esteem. I honestly have no bad intentions I AM a muslim. It's just that at times I feel so depressed, doubtful and can't trust anything. Maybe that's why I feel as though I haven't got the confidence to say to myself " though I will never understand everything or make time out to understand it all, I remain firm in my belief!". But I am getting close to this now however, once my worries are cleared up, and they have mostly gone away.

So that's why I came back to this thread after quite some time. I don't know how seriously you may take what I've written here, but I know that is what has been happening to me for quite some time now. Where my mind settles on one area that it is a lie, it then starts drifting to another area which causes me doubts and so on. But I am so near to ending this phase of doubting now, yet sometimes there are questions in my mind.

So the purpose of this post was just to allow you and others to become more aware of my circumstances. I am helping myself each day, but I don't think it can all be done overnight.

 

[Ramadhan]

and I've seemed to have lost trust in everything and everyone

If such is the case, then nothing we say or explain to you will convince you.

And in similar fashion, nothing anti Islamic sites say should also not convince you.

What is clear to anyone is: you doubt everything we say/explain here and yet have more trust on anti Islamic site even though those anti islamic sites are clearly wrong.
Here's an answer from a muslim embryologist: http://www.medicine4faith.net/?p=53

Your stance is very confusing. It does appear you have more trust in the lies of anti Islam website.

Anyway, even if you don't have trust for anyone on earth, shouldn't you have absolute trust in Allah?
Unless you don't believe in Allah and don't believe Al Qur'an is His words.

 

[Abz2000]

bro - again.....
the verse: "Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)
is the resurrection process and is NOT the verse to look at if you're looking for the creation process, please refer to your Quran translation,

i'll repeat a part of it again for the sake of clarification - but please refer to the previous page for a more detailed answer:

the creation process is described in Surah Mu-minun amongst others:
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood ('Alaqah) ; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump (Mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones ('Izuaam) and clothed the bones with flesh (lahm); then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!
Quran 23-14

the Quran clearly says the Mudghah comes before the bones or meat,
now many people have attempted to interpret the word "mudhah" and come out with different explanations - some have said chewed appearance, or chewed substance, some have said lump, and some have given other interpretations - now we know it hasn't been chewed by anyone so it could mean chewed appearance or something not completely defined - or anything that Almighty God may have intended,
after the bones part the term "lahm" is used, this is almost unanimously interpreted as "meat" or "flesh", how do we know that Almighty God does not define this stage as different from the pre-skeletal stage - as the composition of the substance is constantly changing?
would you call sperm meat? the sperm didn't change into meat in a split second and other things were happening during this process of transformation so why two different names for sperm and meat???
and is there anything wrong or "un-scientific" with having a name for the post-sperm, pre-meat substance?
and if you went into a shop and asked for "lahm" they wouldn't start looking for "muscle", they would ask if you wanted lamb or beef meat - so why go to those acrobatics to say the Quran was talking about muscle???
obviously composition of the "chewed" pre-skeletal stuff is not the same as the post skeletal stuff even though the transition is occurring during the formation of cartilage, so if Almighty God decided to use two different terms to describe pre-skeletal flesh and post-skeletal flesh, does that mean it's wrong? or does it mean that he gave it a different definition.

AGAIN - i explained this on the previous page and you again used the same verse from Surah Baqarah which is totally out of context, i don't know if it's because you never read it - or read it and decided to post the same verse again...........God knows...........
peace

 

[Perseveranze]

Assalaamu-Alaikum, I have an honest question here, which I would appreciate if the simplest form of answer was given. I know some people have posted things but they're not clearly making sense to me at the moment.

I wanted to ask what is the key/fundamental difference between what is written here( shown below):

Bones Before Muscle? The Koran got it wrong!
Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)​

The Koran gives the impression that first the skeleton is formed, and then it is clothed with mustle. Dr. Bucaille knows perfectly well that this is not true. The muscles and the cartilage precursors of the bones start forming from the somite at the same time. At the end of the eighth week there are only a few centers of ossification started but the fetus is already capable of some muscular movement.
In a personal letter dated 8/1/87 from Dr. T.W. Sadler, Ph.D., Associate Professor in the Department of Anatomy at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, N.C. 27514, and author of Langman's Medical Embryology, Dr. Sadler states,

"At the 8th week post fertilization, the ribs would be cartilaginous and muscles would be present. Also at this time ossification would begin near the angle of the rib and would spread along the shaft until it reached the costal cartilage by the 4th month. Muscles would be capable of some movement at 8 weeks, but by 10-12 weeks this capacity would be much better developed."​

It is always better to have two witnesses so we shall see what Dr. Keith L. Moore has to say about the development of bones and muscles in his book The Developing Human. Extracted from Chapters 15-17 we find the following information:
The skeletal and muscle system develops from the mesoderm, some of which becomes mesenchymal cells. These mesenchymal cells make muscles, and also have the ability to differentiate...into osteoblasts which make bone. At first the bones form as cartilage models so that by the end of the sixth week the whole limb skeleton is formed out of cartilage but without any bony calcium as shown in Figure 15-13. (Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human, 4th ed., 1988, p. 346.)
While the bone models are forming, myoblasts develop a large muscle mass in each limb bud, separating into extensor and flexor components. In other words, the limb musculature develops simultaneously in situ from the mesenchyme surrounding the developing bones. So Dr. Moore agrees completely with Dr. Sadler.
Furthermore, during a personal conversation with Dr. Moore I showed him Dr. Sadler's statement and he agreed that it was absolutely valid.
Conclusion: on bone development Dr. Sadler and Dr. Moore agree. There is no time when calcified bones have been formed and then the muscles are placed around them. The muscles are there several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than being added around previously formed bones as the Qur'an states. The Qur'an is in complete error here.


And what is written in their answer:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/a..._qur__n__23_14__and_embryology__by_islamtoday

Because as far as I can understand up to this point, is that the main differences in answer are due to differences in interpretation of the verse, and the first site is wrong in their interpretation of the verse.

The verse is correctly interpreted as Allah says: ".then We clothed the bones with flesh."

and NOT AS Allah does not say: "Then we created flesh and clothed the bones with it."

OR( from the bible.ca site)

Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

i.e. the two incorrect verses have 'over-interpreted' and so made things up to deliberately interpret the original verse incorrectly?

Any help will be appreciated, I hope you understand I'm being honest in asking for help here and this is a genuine question.

JazakAllah, wasalaam

Brother, this is the correct answer -

/////Question: Allah says: "Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators." [23:14]

There seems to be a scientific error in this verse. According to modern embryologists including Professor Moore, the tissue from which bone originates - known as mesoderm - is the same tissue as that from which muscle (flesh) develops. Thus bone and muscle begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially (as the Qur'an seems to be telling us).

The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely wrong, but seems to be directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen's hypothesis.

Please clarify this matter for me.


--------------------------------------

Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

It is inconceivable that the true word of Allah could ever contradict scientific fact, since the universe is Allah's creation, and Allah fully knows what He created. A Muslim, when faced with what appears to be a contradiction between the Qur'ân and a scientific fact knows there can only be two possibilities:
1. That which is being construed as a scientific "fact" is not in actuality a fact.

2. The verse that is being construed as being in conflict with science is being misinterpreted, misapplied, or misunderstood.
Any claim being made that there is a contradiction between science and the Qur'ân has to be evaluated individually. The factuality of the scientific claim needs to be assessed as well as the true meaning of the verse that is supposedly at variance with it.

With respect to the issue of the concurrent development of bone and muscle tissue, this is a directly observable fact. Therefore, we must look carefully at the verse to ascertain exactly what the Qur'ân is saying and - more importantly - what it is not saying.

You provide this translation for the following verse:
"Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be God, the Best of creators." [Sûrah al-Mu'minûn: 14]

You further contend that this verse contradicts what we know in embryology that the bone and muscle develop simultaneously from the mesoderm.

When we read the verse, it says that the bones are created from the "little lump of flesh" (mudghah). This in no way implies that bones are created before flesh and then this little naked skeleton is given flesh. It actually more clearly implies a concurrent development, since some sort of flesh is always there from the start. Nowhere in the verse does it say that the bones have finished forming. Nowhere does it even imply that muscle tissue is not developing concurrently. The wording of the verse is quite vague on this point and what it says is quite compatible with what we know of embryology. All that the verse is stating is that flesh - we might venture to assume differentiated muscle tissue, since the Arabic word lahm (meat, flesh) is generally used exclusively for muscle tissue - is attached to bones as the bones begin to form. Allah says: ".then We clothed the bones with flesh." Allah does not say: "Then we created flesh and clothed the bones with it."

Therefore, the problem that you cite stems from assumptions being made about the verse's meaning and not from what the verse is actually saying.////

 

[Ramadhan]

Yeah, I've just realized the anti islamic site that br. saffy786 actually took the ayat out of context:

Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.
"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

As was explained by. br abz2000, al Baqara:259 actually narrates a resurrection process of a dead donkey whose remains were only bones, not an embryology process:

the verse: "Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)
is the resurrection process and is NOT the verse to look at if you're looking for the creation process, please refer to your Quran translation,

Bro, as you can see in this example that brought to us, that anti Islamic site deliberately took and presented the ayat our of context. And because your islamic knowledge is weak, you didn't know that.
Do you think this is the only "mistake" that those sites made?
NO.
In articles after articles, in refutations after refutations, those anti-Islamic sites deliberately, consciously, making lies, taking ayats or hadiths out of context, cutting off parts of ayats and hadiths, misquote and mistranslates ayats and hadiths etc.
Sometimes in my research on certain topics of Islam, unknowingly, google took me to those site times to times, but it only made me angry because I was able to identify some of those lies, mistranslations, misquotes, etc. Some of those lies were so blatant and ridiculous where they completely made up/invented a hadith or even an ayat!
Bro, you must realize that in some other religions, they are allowed to lie to attract people to their religions, and so we must protect ourselves from those.

 

[GuestFellow]

Visiting Anti Islamic websites is like taking poison.

Salaam,

I agree that anti-Islamic websites are poison. There is no need to visit them. You might as well learn Arabic and read Islamic books.

 

[True-blue]

Surprised to see this thread has become this much loooong showing anxiety because of such a poor site.

 

[Pak-istan786]

You know what I don't get about these anti-Islamic sites is how do they manage to think of such strange lies? Thier creativity is quite remarkable, and sometimes I fail to see what could have triggered their thoughts to create such lies. For example, as shown below:

He wrote:

13- In Koran 7:125, death by crucifixion is stated to exist at the time of Moses in 1500BC. Yet Encyclopedia Britannica, in harmony with all records of history, reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier than 500 BC. My question is: to how do you explain this blaring historical error, and do you just disregard the history of the world merely because the Karen says otherwise?



My response:

I found no mention of crucifixtion in Noble Verse 7:125, and I am not aware of any Noble Verse related to your claim. Here is what Noble Verses 7:120-130 say:

"But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration. Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,- "The Lord of Moses and Aaron." Said Pharaoh: "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this is a trick which ye have planned in the city to drive out its people: but soon shall ye know (the consequences). "Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross." They said: "For us, We are but sent back unto our Lord: "But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)! Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible." Said Moses to his people: "Pray for help from God, and (wait) in patience and constancy: for the earth is God's, to give as a heritage to such of His servants as He pleaseth; and the end is (best) for the righteous. They said: "We have had (nothing but) trouble, both before and after thou camest to us." He said: "It may be that your Lord will destroy your enemy and make you inheritors in the earth; that so He may try you by your deeds." We punished the people of Pharaoh with years (of droughts) and shortness of crops; that they might receive admonition. (The Noble Quran, 7:120-130)"

Is this another lie you invented "brother Andrew"?

It seems that this anti-Islamic guy completely made that claim up and picked some random verse to say his point was found in. Do these people think that others will simply look at their site and take everything as it is written e.g. in this example, not actually look up the verse for themselves! Is anyone aware of any verse related to the anti-Islamic guy's claim!?

 

[Insaanah]

You have GOT to stop this.

Whereas before I used to accept what other people would say easily, be reassured easily, now I feel as though I have to personally have seen everything and understood everything for myself.

It is one thing for someone to say something to you, and for you to have doubts about it, but it is another thing altogether for you to go out of your way to actively look for such things, which is what you appear to be doing.

You have put yourself on a dangerous path. If you want to look at these things, strengthen your knowledge of Islam first, so that you know how to deal with them. If you don't know where to start, even if it's the basics of the deen, post new threads in the other sections of the forum, and read the beneficial threads in the Worship in Islam, Aqeedah, New to Islam, etc sections. Create threads there and your brothers and sisters on the forum will do the best they can to help you learn and to strengthen your faith.

As the brothers have already pointed out to you, these sites are full of lies. Like the ayah the enemies of Islam said was about embryology when it was actually about the resurrection of a dead donkey. But you just believe anything they say.

In Koran 7:125, death by crucifixion is stated to exist at the time of Moses in 1500BC. Yet Encyclopedia Britannica, in harmony with all records of history, reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier than 500 BC. My question is: to how do you explain this blaring historical error, and do you just disregard the history of the world merely because the Karen says otherwise?

Firstly, there is not one, but two blaring errors actually in their question. They have just picked a verse at random without knowledge. The actual reference for the verse in question is 7:124, not 7:125. Secondly, crucifixion at the time of Prophet Musa alayhi assalaam is not the earliest record in the Qur'an.

Pickthall
"O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire." (Qur'an 12:41) It actually existed before the time of Musa alayhi assalaam, at least at the time of Prophet Yusuf alayhi assalaam, if not before.

And, a scholarly article with in depth research into the history of crucifixion, that examines ancient written and pictorial evidence, says that crucifixion existed at least 1700 years bc, and even earlier, not just 500 years bc as the liars want you to believe. They have no brains and use their tools of lying, twisting facts and hiding facts they don't want you to know, to mislead people. The article says, "What is interesting to note is that the earliest available evidence of the occurrence of crucifixion in ancient Egypt is seen in Papyrus Boulaq 18 from the time of Sobekhotep II / Chendjer of the 13th Dynasty in the Second Intermediate Period. Joseph, according to majority of scholars, entered Egypt during the rule of the Hyksos who formed the 15th and 16th Dynasties in the Second Intermediate Period. This means that crucifixion happened in Egypt even before Joseph entered Egypt."

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/crucify.html

In this example you have quoted, I have checked the liars source, the Encyclopedia Britannica, and, as usual, they are lying again. They want to turn people away from Islam, and cause doubt in people's hearts, and they have you wrapped around their little finger.

Encyclopedia Britannica, in harmony with all records of history, reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier than 500 BC.

This is a lie. The Encyclopedia Britannica states no such thing. This is what it says, "Crucifixion, an important method of capital punishment, particularly among the Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century bce to the 4th century ce."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/144583/crucifixion

In other words it was a method of punishment, particularly popular among that group of people, at about those times. It does NOT say that it did not exist before that. It says it is notable particularly in those periods among those people. Nowhere does it say it did not occur before this. Not only does the Encyclopedia Britannica not say that, but also no other sources say that it did not exist before 500BC. Another lie of theirs exposed.

History is only as good as the written/pictorial/archeological records on which it's based. If something happened plenty, and for a long time, but didn't get recorded in writing, or the records didn't survive the rigours of time, does that mean it never happened? Think for yourself. And Allah's record is the most accurate, as He knows everything that ever happened, and when it happened.

do you just disregard the history of the world merely because the Karen says otherwise?

Astaghfirullah, they even mock the name of our Holy book.

Surprised to see this thread has become this much loooong showing anxiety because of such a poor site.

I agree. I rest my case here; it shows every kind of lie and falsehood they are using. If you persist on going to such sites, and reading such lies and falsehood, rather than the beautiful truth Allah has sent down to us, I will not be answering any longer.

I hope to see you posting, in future, in threads to increase your Islamic knowledge, where your brothers and sisters can help you with knowledge of the deen, rather than this one.